Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: marko2002 on 05 March 2008, 19:23:44
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Hi guys, new here so please bear with me ... bought my 2.2CD auto Omega over a month ago and already I've had to have a head gasket replaced, font section exhaust (£400) and windscreen. It's beginning to rack up the £££'s and the exhaust was only done on Saturday. My problem is, now I'm getting a rattle from where the manifold meets the exhaust and a slight rasp from underneath the car. It goes without saying that it's going back to the repair centre tomorrow along with a whole heap of potential abuse if they attempt to fob me off but I'm slightly concerned after reading a few other threads about problems with manifold bolts shearing off. I've inspected the manifold and from what I can see it appears to be in order and this "rattle" definately wasn't there before I had the exhaust replaced.
On the Sunday my emissions control light came on I took it back to the garage on Monday, they couldn't find a problem but reset the error but it came back on on Tuesday!. When they fitted the exhaust also they said my old exhaust had 2 cats but they could only get their hands on a replacement with 1 cat but it would be fine and wouldn't make any difference at all to the running of the car or the emissions but I'm now beginning to wonder to be honest. Any thoughts???
Appreciated
Marko
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Hi guys, new here so please bear with me ... bought my 2.2CD auto Omega over a month ago and already I've had to have a head gasket replaced, font section exhaust (£400) and windscreen. It's beginning to rack up the £££'s and the exhaust was only done on Saturday. My problem is, now I'm getting a rattle from where the manifold meets the exhaust and a slight rasp from underneath the car. It goes without saying that it's going back to the repair centre tomorrow along with a whole heap of potential abuse if they attempt to fob me off but I'm slightly concerned after reading a few other threads about problems with manifold bolts shearing off. I've inspected the manifold and from what I can see it appears to be in order and this "rattle" definately wasn't there before I had the exhaust replaced.
On the Sunday my emissions control light came on I took it back to the garage on Monday, they couldn't find a problem but reset the error but it came back on on Tuesday!. When they fitted the exhaust also they said my old exhaust had 2 cats but they could only get their hands on a replacement with 1 cat but it would be fine and wouldn't make any difference at all to the running of the car or the emissions but I'm now beginning to wonder to be honest. Any thoughts???
Appreciated
Marko
Jesus, whos fitting it, Robum Blind Ltd
Yes, not having two cats will make a hell of a difference as it wont support the 2 lambda setup on the 2.2!
The first lambda monitors mixture control adn teh second monitors the pre-cat efficiency....and the setup they have fitted hasn't got a pre cat!
I suspect the silly buggers have
1) Fitted a setup for a 2.0 16V which is wrong
2) Fitted it badly
3) Totaly over charged you as for 400 quid it should be genuine!
What had failed on the old cat setup, the flexi joint?
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haha, Robum Blind Ltd, nearly right it was Budget but everyone can make mistakes once right? (not referring to those usless *****, more referring to me cause it certainly won't happen again!) - failure of the old system was over a (minor) speed bump at 0mph it hit the (sorry for my inability to quote the correct bits) meshy bit of the cat. The joker at Budget quoted me £500 for the "proper" exhaust but I think you've just confirmed my original feeling of getting ripped off big time here!.
The exhaust they fitted has a cat underneath where the old one had one but doesn't have what appeared to be the first cat coming down from near the manifold section if this helps determine what system they fitted for me.
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haha, Robum Blind Ltd, nearly right it was Budget but everyone can make mistakes once right? (not referring to those usless *****, more referring to me cause it certainly won't happen again!) - failure of the old system was over a (minor) speed bump at 0mph it hit the (sorry for my inability to quote the correct bits) meshy bit of the cat. The joker at Budget quoted me £500 for the "proper" exhaust but I think you've just confirmed my original feeling of getting ripped off big time here!.
The exhaust they fitted has a cat underneath where the old one had one but doesn't have what appeared to be the first cat coming down from near the manifold section if this helps determine what system they fitted for me.
The 'meshy' part is the flexi joint, they cost about 25 quid and take about an hour to fit.
They have fitted the wrong system, its off a 2.0 not a 2.2 ...
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seriously?! that part can be replaced? cause that's exactly the opposite of what the clown at budget said!! Think I might be taking a baseball bat with me tomorrow and rearrange this guys way of thinking!!!
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Yup, easy enough to get hold of.....can even get them on ebay!
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Would you reckon a Vauxhall dealer could confirm that also or do you think they would shy away from the subject?
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They would confirm the part is wrong, that I am certain of but, I suspect they may sudgest full replacement, depends how clued up they are.
Heres the correct pattern part:
https://sslrelay.com/buypartsby.co.uk/cat_details.php?recordID=1856
Here are some flexi joint repair sections:
http://search.ebay.co.uk/search/search.dll?from=R40&_trksid=m37&satitle=exhaust+flexi
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Go and see your local Vx parts person and ask him/her if they will give you a print out of the part and part number, if they do go round to Budget ,wait till there are a lot of people waiting then go in find the tosser and show him the print out tell him he's spun you a load of bull then demand they fit a new genuine Vx system to your car,if he gets ante tell him you are now going to make a complaint to their head office and also going round to the local trading standards office and make a formal complaint to them. Then see what happens,if nothing does then rearrange his brain.
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Go and see your local Vx parts person and ask him/her if they will give you a print out of the part and part number, if they do go round to Budget ,wait till there are a lot of people waiting then go in find the tosser and show him the print out tell him he's spun you a load of bull then demand they fit a new genuine Vx system to your car,if he gets ante tell him you are now going to make a complaint to their head office and also going round to the local trading standards office and make a formal complaint to them. Then see what happens,if nothing does then rearrange his brain.
Strangely enough, I've only just finished having much the same conversation with my wife!!! Thanks for the tips guys, definately will get some kind of result tomorrow and thanks for the pics Calib definately what I remember being on the car originally
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OK, so phoned VX and was quoted £650 + fitting for the original part with x2 cats so after picking myself up off the floor I returned to Budget and explained that the car wasn't right with the exhaust they fitted. They inspected it and explained although they couldn't see any problems with the fitting and they would, as a precaution, order another exhaust just in case. When I asked about the "other" exhaust at £500 they couldn't source it and the guy I had dealt with on Saturday wasn't in today. Whilst on the phone to their suppliers the guy asked about the x2 cats and apparently the supplier explained that the part supplied IS the correct 'alternative' to the original, it's simply that they don't need x2 cats and that it wouldn't make a difference to the lambda sensors whatsoever.
They have apparently been supplying these exhaust's without any problem for a while now although I'm obviously still highly doubtful as to the authenticity of their claims so I'm returning tomorrow to have the other new exhaust fitted and failing that I'll see the guy I dealt with on Saturday and if he is able to source and fit the other exhaust with the x2 cats on it for another £100 then I'm going to have to bite the bullet and get them to do it. It's either that, or pay £650 + fitting to VX (best guess is that it would probably work out at around £800!).
Obivously, at the end of the day it's up to Budget to sort the problem now and until they do I'll be the their worst nightmare, day in day out.
Will keep you informed of the progress guys, thanks.
Marko
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God, I hate these 'fast fit' places with a passion! They're in it to make a quick buck and curtains to the customer that needs a repair sharpish! Tyres, exhausts, brakes, just bosh a new one on eh! They don't like repairing hence probably why they didn't reach for the book with the flexi's, it's easier, faster, and more profitable for them to sell you a new part......and STILL, alot of highstreet garages don't have information and specs for facelift omegas :-/
Anyway, hopefully they will get things sorted for you mate. It's highly depressing hanging around those places and arguing for hours on end! Most of them realise that it's not favourable to receive bad press these days!
I A M N O T B I T T E R >:(
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OK, so phoned VX and was quoted £650 + fitting for the original part with x2 cats so after picking myself up off the floor I returned to Budget and explained that the car wasn't right with the exhaust they fitted. They inspected it and explained although they couldn't see any problems with the fitting and they would, as a precaution, order another exhaust just in case. When I asked about the "other" exhaust at £500 they couldn't source it and the guy I had dealt with on Saturday wasn't in today. Whilst on the phone to their suppliers the guy asked about the x2 cats and apparently the supplier explained that the part supplied IS the correct 'alternative' to the original, it's simply that they don't need x2 cats and that it wouldn't make a difference to the lambda sensors whatsoever.
They have apparently been supplying these exhaust's without any problem for a while now although I'm obviously still highly doubtful as to the authenticity of their claims so I'm returning tomorrow to have the other new exhaust fitted and failing that I'll see the guy I dealt with on Saturday and if he is able to source and fit the other exhaust with the x2 cats on it for another £100 then I'm going to have to bite the bullet and get them to do it. It's either that, or pay £650 + fitting to VX (best guess is that it would probably work out at around £800!).
Obivously, at the end of the day it's up to Budget to sort the problem now and until they do I'll be the their worst nightmare, day in day out.
Will keep you informed of the progress guys, thanks.
Marko
Right, heres the technical bit.
The 2.2 has 2 cats and two O2 sensors.
The first sensor appear in the main down pipe and used to control the engine mixture by going, rich/weak etc as per the info elsewhere on this site (think its in FAQ).
Next, you have the pre-cat following which you have another sensor which monitors the cat efficiency, next you have the main cat.
I am interested to know ehere these poor quality apttern items have these two O2 sensors fitted.
I also strongly suspect the statement
We have been supplying these exhaust's without any problem for a while now although
might be the case, I supect they ahev never done one on a 2.2 Omega with twin cat setup.
I would ask for your old front pipe setup back and take it away, get it repaired, insist on a refund and get somebody else to fit the repaired item back on..........if they no longer have what is effectively your property, then they would need to replace like for like.....i.e. Genuine!
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gimmi 10-20 minutes guys and I'll post up a few pics of the exhaust currently on the car ... going round the Budget at 12pm today to have this "new" exhaust fitted again but any ammo I can also take with me appreciated!.
Marko
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OK, here's the best pic could get from the engine bay ... this is obviously the first sensor in the system and from there the exhaust runs down to meet the cat and there is then another sensor behind it!.
I removed the second pic cause it showed nothing other than the flexi hose! (DUH!)
(http://www.freewarebb.com/cat.jpg)
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about were that sensor is there should be a small cat bud thats the front pipe off a 2.0 and will make your car run crap !! and give you fault codes !! >:(
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Yep, Mark (admin) has already pointed me to this pic https://sslrelay.com/buypartsby.co.uk/cat_details.php?recordID=1856 which shows the correct exhaust for my car, and I definatley remember it looking exactly like that whilst the car was on the ramps and although the spanner at Budget has assured me their replacement is the correct one they really don't have an argument any more as the car does without a doubt sound terrible and absolutely nothing at all like it used to. Phoned Budget again 5 mins ago and they say the new exhaust isn't there yet but giving them another hour and if no response I'm round there until it shows up or will give them grief every time another customer pulls in. If, at the end of the day, and as Mark rightly pointed out they can't supply me with the right one I'm asking for my old one back and a refund and I'll take it to a private garage which has since been recommended by a few local folk to have a repair done. If I don't reply today chances are I might be in a cell for the weekend!!! :o
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Yep, Mark (admin) has already pointed me to this pic https://sslrelay.com/buypartsby.co.uk/cat_details.php?recordID=1856 which shows the correct exhaust for my car, and I definatley remember it looking exactly like that whilst the car was on the ramps and although the spanner at Budget has assured me their replacement is the correct one they really don't have an argument any more as the car does without a doubt sound terrible and absolutely nothing at all like it used to. Phoned Budget again 5 mins ago and they say the new exhaust isn't there yet but giving them another hour and if no response I'm round there until it shows up or will give them grief every time another customer pulls in. If, at the end of the day, and as Mark rightly pointed out they can't supply me with the right one I'm asking for my old one back and a refund and I'll take it to a private garage which has since been recommended by a few local folk to have a repair done. If I don't reply today chances are I might be in a cell for the weekend!!! :o
you might have to dig your heels in bud but dont give up !!!! :y
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Whilst in a snapping mood, thought I'd take a photo of what else is connected to my exhaust! ;D Thanks for the help so far all.
(http://www.freewarebb.com/car.jpg)
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Imcomptetent muppets!
Your best bet, is to demand they fit the old, blowing cat and refund your money in full.
Or I would take them to small claims court for a refund, you CANNOT loose....
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When you get your old exhaust back, make sure you ask for the second Lambda sensor too, because they'll have had no where to connect it, I suspect they'll just have binned it. ::)
Kevin
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When you get your old exhaust back, make sure you ask for the second Lambda sensor too, because they'll have had no where to connect it, I suspect they'll just have binned it. ::)
Kevin
Strange thing is the 2 lambda sensors are already fitted to the new exhaust so it's compatible in that sense :o Unfortunately, due to a slight mishap I was held up today and didn't think I'd make it to the garage but they phoned the house anyway and asked if it could be left till Monday as they wanted to bring another guy in to help check out the car and make sure it was as it should be. Basically, it's either stalling tactics cause it's Friday (gulp gulp ahhhhh!) or they are genuinely getting someone in who knows how to open a Snap-On draw - either way I doubt I'd have managed to get in anyway, but Monday morning it's all systems go again!
Will obviously keep you all updated as to the progress and have a good un all ;D
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I wouldn't leave the car with them, stay around while your car is in and make sure they don't bosh it again.
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......
Will obviously keep you all updated as to the progress and have a good un all ;D
You seem to have kept remarkably calm throughout this. 8-) :y
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When you get your old exhaust back, make sure you ask for the second Lambda sensor too, because they'll have had no where to connect it, I suspect they'll just have binned it. ::)
Kevin
Strange thing is the 2 lambda sensors are already fitted to the new exhaust so it's compatible in that sense :o Unfortunately, due to a slight mishap I was held up today and didn't think I'd make it to the garage but they phoned the house anyway and asked if it could be left till Monday as they wanted to bring another guy in to help check out the car and make sure it was as it should be. Basically, it's either stalling tactics cause it's Friday (gulp gulp ahhhhh!) or they are genuinely getting someone in who knows how to open a Snap-On draw - either way I doubt I'd have managed to get in anyway, but Monday morning it's all systems go again!
Will obviously keep you all updated as to the progress and have a good un all ;D
Hmm. Where is the second Lambda sensor? I wonder if it's just downstream of the main cat, in the hope that that will work? I guess it might in theory, but the fact is, the pre-cat is there because it gets to work much faster then the main cat because it's physically smaller and closer to the engine, so heats up quicker. ECU is probably not seeing the cat up to temperature quickly enough so it's flagging cat efficiency errors.
I would press for a genuine exhaust as what they've supplied isn't fit for purpose.
Kevin
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Also on another note, Before they fitted the new exhaust they should have realised that the new one looked nothing like the original, therefore they should not have fitted it, thus they have fitted an inadequate exhaust and not for the car. They have to replace with a new one to the exact same spec as the original. Secondly when the new exhaust and cat has been fitted the car needs to be idleing for approx 15 mins to allow the cat to reach temperature which is approx 350 degrees to 450 degrees this is a must otherwise the cats will eventually break down and become useless. This has to happen every time you start the car.
I know this may sound boring BUT if you require your cats to work properly and efficiantly then this must be done. Also it may be best to replace the lambda probes at the same time as these breakdown over time. For stop start driving these need to be replaced at about 30,000 to 45,000 miles. Motorway driving anything between 60,000 and 80,000. I have done the training on these so its not just guess work.
After this little info for all of you I would stick to your guns get the exhaust replaced WITH the correct pipe, wether its pattern or genuine, from the exhaust fitter's and pay no more money. There mistake, there problem to rectify at there cost.
Paul :y
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I wouldn't leave the car with them, stay around while your car is in and make sure they don't bosh it again.
I will most certainly be waiting AND watching!!!
You seem to have kept remarkably calm throughout this.
Honestly, my wife would definately say different - I've been like a bear with a major sore head the last week!
Hmm. Where is the second Lambda sensor?
Just behind the cat that sits underneath the car (i.e. on a x2 system it would be just behind the second cat)
Before they fitted the new exhaust they should have realised that the new one looked nothing like the original
Problem is, they did - although they also said it was fine despite having only 1 CAT. To be honest, I think this is now making them themselves wonder if they have got it seriously wrong as they want to make sure someone in particular is in on Monday to see and fit the new exhaust and I'm guessing it's possibly another person from another one of their garages - I'll obviously find out on Monday but I'm sticking to my guns on this one and won't be putting up with any more "see how you get on" bull - it will either be fixed 100% on Monday or I'll have my money back and my old exhaust re-fitted - either that or I'll demand they fit a VX genuine if they can't re-fit my old one. Here's to Monday ;D
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keep us all informed as to what they suggest to do matey :y
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Will do m8, and this is one seriously good bloody forum by the way - learned shed loads in the short space of time I've been here! ;D Absolute credit to everyone.
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Did you pay by credit card ? If so notify the card company and let the garage know that you will be pursuing them for a full refund through the credit card company. Compile all the info you can and forward it to the CCC
I believe the sales contract is actually between the card company and the garage.
It's clearly the wrong exhaust.
Don
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No such luck Don, cash!
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OK, spent a little more time on the car today and as the noise from the exhaust was a little more noticeable when cold I stood in front of the car with the bonnet up whilst my son (13 and loving it!) started it up. Straight away and without a shadow of a doubt, the noise is coming from the exhaust manifold together with a smell of exhaust fumes. The noise and the smell lessens as the car heats up. As the new exhaust was obviously fitted and connects to the manifold in question and before I hit the garage again tomorrow I'm left wondering ....
1. Could they then turn round and say it's my manifold and nothing to do with the exhaust, so it's my problem
2. If they did, could I then stand my ground and say it wasn't like that when it came in and manifold's don't just break for no reason (although after reading a few threads on the forum I'm seeing a common fault with manifold bolts shearing!)
3. Given that most of the problems regarding manifolds on the forum are to do with the one on the drivers side (i.e. 2.5, 3.0 engines) could the manifold on a 2.2 (passenger side) develop the same prob as in how I described?
I'm obviously thinking along the lines of 'it wasn't like that when I brought it in to the garage' and will fight my corner although is there anything else I can arm myself with before I get there, such as I don't beleive the exhaust is the right one anyway so this could have caused the manifold problem, etc etc. Obviously, the more ammo I have, the better chance I have of making them look like total spanners especially in front of other customers!. I'm taking along the pics Mark provided previously and will pull these out also but any further advice especially in relation to the manifold greatly appreciated.
Cheers
Marko
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4 pot manifolds can be troublesome, but stick to your guns if it wasn't blowing before they changed the exhaust. Most liekly they haven't sealed the downpipe to the manifold properly.
.. and if the 2nd Lambda sensor is after the main cat this is wrong. There should be a pre-cat before the Lambda sensor and a post-cat after it if it's the same setup as the V6. Sounds like it's a cheapo pattern exhaust where they've tried to do without the pre-cat.
Kevin
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Sorry for the delay in posting back guys, was chasing jobs most of today - anywayyyyyyy, better development at long last yesterday ... went back to the garage at 9am and told the guy I couldn't leave the car which was fine - work started about 10 minutes later, off with their last new exhaust and on with the new exhaust again, oops, what was all that swearing I heard??? Turns out one of the monkeys totally balls'd up one of my lambda sensors much to the annoyance of the manager (titter titter) and waiting for the million dollar line "ooooh, that's gonna cost ya sir" I loosened my cuffs and sported a look even Frank Bruno would have ran from although much to my annoyance the manager apologised unreservedly and asked if I could in any way leave the car with them as they would order up another sensor.
I agreed (as he said he wouldn't be able to get it until after 1pm) to a genuien VX replacement which wasn't a problem. The part didn't turn up till around 3pm and I got a phone call about 4.30pm, returned to pick up my car and it honestly was the difference between night and day.
It started smoother than it ever has and ran incredibly quiet, and guess what else - the exhaust emissions light is out!!! WOHOOOOOO!!! I have no idea what they did right this time but I can't honestly complain as in my opinion the car is running quieter and better than it did even with the original exhaust on! And power!!! wooohhhh, foot down hard and it's serious eye white's for those in front of me - my honest guess is they totally bodged something up last time and had a guy in that actually knew what the hell he was doing. Whether or not they spotted something other than the exhaust (i.e. manifold) and sorted that as well I still have no idea but for £400 I can now honestly say I have my money's worth at last (and crossing fingers it stays that way).
Only thing left to do now is put it through a pre-MOT as I got a free one anyway when I took out my insurance so I'll still be keeping a close eye on the emissions part of it in particular.
Thanks a million for everyone's help and support on this one.
Mark
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Glad you persevered for the result
Presumably you now have the precat AND the main cat?
Do check...
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Nope, it's still the system with the one cat J which still makes me slightly nervous hence the reason I'm getting it in for a pre-MOT asap as they did tell me they had ran an emissions check on it and it passed no problem but a second opinion is always good to have just in case.
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Result :y
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Another quick search on ebay came up with this ....
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VAUXHALL-OMEGA-2-2i-16V-NEW-EXHAUST-CAT-CATALYTIC-90794_W0QQitemZ260154590915QQihZ016QQcategoryZ10404QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQ_trksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem
which looks exactly lke what was fitted to my car, apart from the obvious price difference! Wish I had still asked here before getting Budget to fit one mind you and I could have ordered Mark's recommendation on ebay which looks like the original cat system!
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Glad you got there in the end.
Good luck with test.
Don
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:y
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Is there one lambda in front of the cat and one behind?
Fact remains you still have the wrong system, even if it appears ok...
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Is there one lambda in front of the cat and one behind?
Fact remains you still have the wrong system, even if it appears ok...
Exactly. >:(
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Hi.
I'd be very wary of a change to manufacturers spec. as many settings on cars nowadays depend many components and can affect each other, I would be concerned that even though car is running fine just now, what will long term effect be, two cats are there for a reason and I'd still be insisting on a proper system to avoid possible future problems. cheers,
John
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Is there one lambda in front of the cat and one behind?
Fact remains you still have the wrong system, even if it appears ok...
There is a lambda sensor on the downpipe from the manifold as well as behind the CAT although unfortunately to get the right system fitted at the time would have been a £800 job from VX - granted it would have been the right system but I really don't see what warrents £800 for a cat, it's just VX again picking a figure and slapping it on a part, especially those which we can't be without - having said that I am still very tempted to order the right part for £100+VAT off ebay and fit the damn thing myself as I don't reckon it can be that hard given the monkeys that work for these fast fit outfits! Until then, it's a pre MOT and if it passes the emissions test then I'll probably have to live with the fact it's a replacement part rather than genuine, otherwise I will order the part myself and fit it then return to Budget with their old exhaust for a refund ... stay tuned!!!!
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If I was you I would buy the ebay one and keep it as a spare, just in case the budget one goes wrong or is wrong ,better to be safe than sorry!!!
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Think I may look in the piggy bank next week (still waiting on Mr Tax Man) and order the part anyway - neighbour has a garage I can store it in if need be.
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Hope all goes well mate. Cheers
John