Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: humbucker on 29 February 2008, 17:13:04
-
Hi there. I'm new here and will present myself in the newbie section later as soon as I have updated my profile. I'm a keen reader of these forums but this is my first post... I was hoping your experience might be able to help me out.
I have an Elite 3.0i 24v V6 and I seem to be losing coolant and what I think is quite a rate; I'm topping up once a week at least following the 'Coolant Level' warning inside.
Anyway I took the car to a VX service centre and they found no obvious problem and suggested a new water pump which I replaced. Problem still occurs. Even on the diagnostic sheet they gave me it stated that no problem detected.
No overheating, no obvious leaks, no dodgy oil residue in oil reservoir or coolant tank. Drawing blanks. No steam out of exhaust and A/C working OK. Just getting through it more often than I think I should.
Anyway, I hoped your invaluable advice might shed some light on the problem.
Thanks in advance, I look forward to your responses. Feel free to ask me if there's something you think I'm missing!!
:)
I wondered if you had any suggestions?
-
I shall follow this thread with interest! ::)
-
Hi there. I'm new here and will present myself in the newbie section later as soon as I have updated my profile. I'm a keen reader of these forums but this is my first post... I was hoping your experience might be able to help me out.
I have an Elite 3.0i 24v V6 and I seem to be losing coolant and what I think is quite a rate; I'm topping up once a week at least following the 'Coolant Level' warning inside.
Anyway I took the car to a VX service centre and they found no obvious problem and suggested a new water pump which I replaced. Problem still occurs. Even on the diagnostic sheet they gave me it stated that no problem detected.
No overheating, no obvious leaks, no dodgy oil residue in oil reservoir or coolant tank. Drawing blanks. No steam out of exhaust and A/C working OK. Just getting through it more often than I think I should.
Anyway, I hoped your invaluable advice might shed some light on the problem.
Thanks in advance, I look forward to your responses. Feel free to ask me if there's something you think I'm missing!!
:)
I wondered if you had any suggestions?
HBV, Reservoir Cap, Split in Reservoir, Oil Cooler Plate Leaking :question
-
I had a very similar problem which was ongoing for 9 months, replaced 'heater by-pass valve' no change. Finally found the problem in January, a hair-line crack in the plastic side tank of the radiator, just below the top hose connector, only leaked when hot and under pressure, replaced the rad now all things normal, but it took 9 months of constant topping up.
regards
richard
-
As Loo-Knee has stated, HBV or a leak in the V area, ie- coolant bridge, oil cooler plate, thermostate etc....
-
Thanks for your feedback. I'm going to be out working on 'The Mothership' as she is known tomorrow so I'll have a look around the rad and pick up the points you mention.
In the meantime if anyone has any further suggestions I'd be more than happy to hear them. Will keep you posted!
;)
-
Wipe around all bits you can reach with coloured papertowel (kimwipe is good).. this changes colour when wet and is a way of finding small leaks :)
-
Had exactly the same problem on my 3.0 MV6. In desperation stuck a bottle of Barrs Leaks in the header tank. Would rather have found and fixed the leak, but it cured the problem. Haven't lost a drop since and the car works perfectly.
-
I heard a story, the other day of someone who had a similar problem. He couldn't find the leak, but eventually he found the leak in a coolant hose, and the tiny coolant leak was sprayed from the crack in the hose, onto the exhaust manifold so the coolant evaporated and thus, didn't show when the engine was inspected:)
If all else fails, it's worth a try:)
-
Waterpumps, can seep and then the water can evaporate and leave no trace.. It maybe a good idea to remove the filler cap overnight and look under in the morning for drips... removing the cap will remove the negative pressure effect and let gravity take it's course....
Good Luck... hope it's a dead simple fix..
DC :)
-
Hi all, thought I'd give a progress report in the hope of someone being able to advise; this one is a bit beyond my limited knowledge.
I'm still losing coolant, despite checking for leaks, replacing Heater Bypass Valve and flushing coolant (put a load of the nice new red stuff in).
The rocker gaskets need replacing but I was a bit concerned about my continued coolant loss. I took it to my local garage to get a second opinion this morning and to get it up on his ramps to have a proper look.
The guy identified the rocker gaskets leaking as I had already and said he thought coolant / water loss was evident from both sides at the back of the head. Suggested it was signs of head gasket failure. Does this sound right?
Coolant is not leaking internally; no oil/coolant mix anywhere.
He then proceeded to quote me £850 + VAT for head gasket work, said he would need to 'remove the engine altogether', replace the rocker gaskets as matter of course and also do timing belt kit replacement.
As everyone says HG failure is rare on the V6's, I wondered a) if there was any conclusive evidence I could look for (or am I just one of the unlucky few) and b) if indeed it IS head gasket failure £850 sounded a lot. Awaiting callback from 2 different VX workshops for alternative quotes.
Your feedback greatly appreciated chaps and chapettes. :'(
-
Mark DTM will provide a scientific and factual account of why HGF is near non existant on the v6 - suffice to see if it is it will be the second i have heard of ::) in 3 years....
EVEN if it was theres no need to take the engine out - none at all !
Is there any water / oil cross contamination anywhere - and by that ignore what will seem like mayo on the inside of your filler cap..
Be very very wary of getting involved in this sort of work as I suspect your mechanics have no idea what they are dealing with
-
Meant to say - lets get the rockers done, watch the cooland and try to work out exactly how much its losing...
-
Mark DTM will provide a scientific and factual accoutn of why HGF is near non existant on the v6 - suffice to see if it is it will be the second i have heard of ::)
EVEN if it was theres no need to take the engine out - none at all !
Is there any water / oil cross contamination anywhere - and by that ignore what will seem like mayo on the inside of your filler cap..
yeah i did PM Mark and ask him to take a look at this thread... would be interested in his opinion.
my gut feeling is the garage is wrong. that is also my hope!! i did ask if they could do compression test to see if it was head gasket, mechanic said that it wouldn't be of use as it looked like coolant leaking externally, not internally(?).
no example of any water / oil cross contamination. no mayo cak on inside of filler cap; i just replaced oil and filter with all GM stuff this weekend too. the car is only ever used for reasonably long journeys (40 miles at a time twice a day) so even though the mileage isn't particularly low (144k) it is all constant running at constant speeds, no short start stops, hence no mayo. kinda runs fine.
im hoping i can still find a dodgy hose or something, although no evidence as yet. like i said above, replaced HBV hoping this would cure the problem but to no avail.
-
Meant to say - lets get the rockers done, watch the cooland and try to work out exactly how much its losing...
well i've been checking the expansion tank level each day and its losing a few mm at a time. i've got no performance issues either. but i guess if i dont identify the problem it's just going to get worse and i plan to drive this car for a very long time to come! i guess im topping it up once a week really. rocker gaskets shouldnt affect coolant though should they?
the good lady says im doing 350 - 400 miles a week and that i should expect to lose a bit of coolant, but im not sure it should be this much...
-
Sounds identical to the problem on my 3.0. I was losing small amounts of coolant, going from max to min in about a week. No obvious sign of any leakage. Garage diagnosed oil cooler failure after removing the plenum and digging around, even though there was no cross contamination. They were right it was buggered and had managed to leak all over the dis pack which then broke a few weeks later grrrr. It appeared (I have to trust their judgement here) that the cooler had corroded from the inside out, they said it was an odd failure, most likely a manufacturing fault started it off, then possibly the previous owner had run too weak on the antifreeze mix causing the corrosion to accelerate and ultimately cause failure. Well it seemes plausible to me anyway.
Lesson learned, when the plenum is off look at everything not just the immediate fault !
-
If it's showing signs of leakage at rear of the head, coolant bridge seals, oil cooler cover plate and thermostat seals are worth checking.
All could leak and run back along the valley and drip at the rear.
Coolant can't leak out of the cam cover seals, unless someone has filled the sump with it! :)
-
When you do the cam cover gaskets, remove the manifold that is below the fuel rail assembly (just a load of bolts). Then you will be able to see the thermostat, oil cooler plate and the coolant bridge at the back. It sounds like its one of these which is then leaking out of the back of the V.
-
Could this problem not be caused by air in the system somewhere...stubborn air that won't come out. ?
-
When you do the cam cover gaskets, remove the manifold that is below the fuel rail assembly (just a load of bolts). Then you will be able to see the thermostat, oil cooler plate and the coolant bridge at the back. It sounds like its one of these which is then leaking out of the back of the V.
what should i be looking out for though, what tell tale signs should i spot? this is all new territory for me so im not sure what i would recognise as a faulty component. :(
-
Hi..I had a very similar problem to yours and it was cured by replacing the coolant headre tank and the yellow pressure cap,with brand new at a cost of about £35=00.
It seemed that there was a minute seam crack in the plastice expansion tank around the neck and was only leaking under pressure.Might be worth the cost if they are the original bits and you are keeping the car for a while .Hope that helps
-
I'm in the middle of changing the thermostat on my 2.5 and I think I've spotted the cause of my slow leak.
The front oil cooler to cover plate joint is seeping, just under the banjo bolt. There was no sign of leakage without dismantling this far.
Worth a look at yours.
-
the latest instalment...
topped up coolant before i left for work. was on way in, steam and water emptied itself into drivers footwell, so heater matrix gone(?), coolant steady trickle out of bottom of car, from usual place but this time at much more of a rate. half of expansion tank emptied.
called AA, towed to nearest garage (VX) awaiting them to diagnose further. couldn't do much else really, can't drive it like it is. i wondered if matrix going was a result of pressure buildup from elsewhere, it looking for the weakest point to escape? i.e. the matrix going is just a product of the earlier leak/bigger problem?
dripping coolant for a while, unable to identify as mentioned previously, havent had chance to do cam covers to check coolant leak yet. could it have been matrix all along? :-[
-
I'm in the middle of changing the thermostat on my 2.5 and I think I've spotted the cause of my slow leak.
The front oil cooler to cover plate joint is seeping, just under the banjo bolt. There was no sign of leakage without dismantling this far.
Worth a look at yours.
The garage changed my thermostat and a leak appeared - no previous problem for 30k! They had improvised a washer when fitting. The leak took a long time to spot and only under pressure - I live in the mountains and it's only when going uphill!!
-
.....The garage changed my thermostat and a leak appeared - no previous problem for 30k! They had improvised a washer when fitting. ......
Do you think there might be a link between the two? ::) :y :y
-
the latest instalment...
topped up coolant before i left for work. was on way in, steam and water emptied itself into drivers footwell, so heater matrix gone(?), coolant steady trickle out of bottom of car, from usual place but this time at much more of a rate. half of expansion tank emptied.
called AA, towed to nearest garage (VX) awaiting them to diagnose further. couldn't do much else really, can't drive it like it is. i wondered if matrix going was a result of pressure buildup from elsewhere, it looking for the weakest point to escape? i.e. the matrix going is just a product of the earlier leak/bigger problem?
dripping coolant for a while, unable to identify as mentioned previously, havent had chance to do cam covers to check coolant leak yet. could it have been matrix all along? :-[
guys, ur advice greatly appreciated before the garage call back with their verdict... i wondered if this morning's problems shed any more light on the matter?
:(
-
Random I know but what/where is the heater matrix??
-
heater matrix is the small radiator behind the the dash that controls the temperature of the climate control. bitch to get at, but its the only part of the car, to my knowledge, that pumps water inside the cabin, therefore wet feet when it or its pipes burst. i think in and out pipes go into engine bay and join at the heater bypass valve.
not good.
-
Oh, well I have most of the centre bit of the dash ripped out of the elite in the driveway so will have to take a look and see if I can see the heater matrix back there :) And if I can have to see how to remove it lol
-
Garage called back just now... new heater matrix including labour and VAT £780. VX garage. Does this sound right?
:o
what to do...??
-
How much of that is the heater matrix itself and how difficult is it to actually change the heater matrix once the centre console is off??
I have one here, if its not too bad a job we can probably sort it out while your here picking up the parts??
Not sure whats involved though
-
'parts' are 180 inc VAT. as far as the job itself is concerned, i dont really know whats involved other than its a big job. labour charges equate to 7 hours. i did a scout around the net and the forum and all seems to point to a job for an experienced mechanic, beyond my capabilities anyway. and even then im not sure my original problem is going to be addressed, ie. is the matrix responsible for my prolongued coolant leak? or is the pressure build up / coolant leak responsible for the matrix giving way, a symptom of the bigger problem... i dont have the experience to answer that really.
:(
-
i guess my question is would a faulty heater matrix (radiator) show evidence of leaking / dripping on the ground underneath the car?
-
This is for morale support only. I really sympathise with you as I am in the same situation with my wife's Freelander ( and they are more than prone to blowing the HG)
I understand how frustrating it is to be thwarted at each attempt to rectify the problem ,however I wish you luck and hope the misery comes to an end soon.( and at reasonable expense )
Good luck.
Don :y
-
as garage won't accept TC they will drop work down to 700. this includes parts (heater rad, coolant etc) and 7 hours labour *85 an hour!* and courtesy car. sheesh. and still could be back to square one afterwards. bah.
-
K Series Engines i know a fair bit about pm me!!
the 1.8 is prone to more HG Failure than the 14 & 1600 engines
-
heater matrix fitted and pressure testing suggests leak has gone away. vx said after i haggled on costs that contrary to the 6 hours they have charged me it took them 12 and a half. i will still check coolant levels and oil cooler plate / stat block when i get it back, just in case secondary leak is still evident, but i dont feel too bad about the labour charges now...!!!
-
Good job mate :) Glad to hear its sorted...so only £45 an hour labour then in the end lol
-
oh and after much ear bending i managed to get the parts at trade cost in the end too. thankfully i can also claim the vat back which will make a bit of a difference.
-
Good job mate :) Glad to hear its sorted...so only £45 an hour labour then in the end lol
hehe yeah, better than it was at least! for main dealer that's not a bad price i guess! still, proof of the pudding and all that... haven't got the mothership back yet, will pick her up on friday, but fingers crossed that it's all ok. i have reservations on that front, but we'll see.
-
Hi. ;DGlad you got it sorted. If i were you i would now buy a bottle of K-SEAL which is around £10 or cheaper on ebay. This stuff will stay in your cooling system and seal any leaks as they appear anywhere in the cooling system. If you GOOGLE this stuff and read about it before you purchase it you will be amazed at what else it does ;D
-
Hi. ;DGlad you got it sorted. If i were you i would now buy a bottle of K-SEAL which is around £10 or cheaper on ebay. This stuff will stay in your cooling system and seal any leaks as they appear anywhere in the cooling system. If you GOOGLE this stuff and read about it before you purchase it you will be amazed at what else it does ;D
Those on here who know such things (not me, I hasten to add...) would recommend otherwise..... K-seal and similar, whilst doing a job, also do other things to engines that need minute waterways to function correctly. K-seal can and does block these, apparently, and cause more probs than they fix.... Use with caution.
-
When changing coolant I usually flush the coolant system, use distilled water with decent antifreeze and I have always lobbed in a bottle of barrs.
To date (20 years of driving) no hassle.
I'm taking an educate guess that if there's any excess Barrs/Bars in the cooling circuit the flush out will remove it but (hopefully) wont remove any repair.
Having seen the hole caused by corrosion on the oil cooler cover on my Omega in January 07, the anti-corrosion claims and pump lube on Barrs/Bars wins me over every time.
-
I dont think putting in one bottle of the Barrs leak stop will do any major harm. The problem is the temptation to go on adding the stuff if the leak is either not fully cured or subsequently returns. Then you'll get a problem.
-
Hi. ;DGlad you got it sorted. If i were you i would now buy a bottle of K-SEAL which is around £10 or cheaper on ebay. This stuff will stay in your cooling system and seal any leaks as they appear anywhere in the cooling system. If you GOOGLE this stuff and read about it before you purchase it you will be amazed at what else it does ;D
Those on here who know such things (not me, I hasten to add...) would recommend otherwise..... K-seal and similar, whilst doing a job, also do other things to engines that need minute waterways to function correctly. K-seal can and does block these, apparently, and cause more probs than they fix.... Use with caution.
Intersesting "minute waterways" where are they I have never seen one.?
In a sense ilovemyelite as answered his own question.
the 24v v6 i have loses coolant regularly. You go through the normal visual checks nothing obvious, and then quite by accident you see the little bugger RAD CAP bypassing but only when depressurising with the engine off. No sign at all whilst running, so a faulty rad cap, which is also the main culprit when the heater matrix blows, and yet the relief valve is obviously working in my case, very easy to just change the cap, but that does not answer the question why, my temp very rarely goes above 90. I have my suspicions as to what is happening just need to prove it. So when your system is pressue tested make sure your cap is also tested. And I use Kseal and always have in this particular car, advised of a hg failure. I wont mention what I think of such advice.
And just to do a bit more winding that is also without any anti freeze which the car as never had since I have owned it.
-
got the car back this evening... was surprised to see the rear cigarette lighter missing and the gear selector light and winter pack button on the wrong way round; the lights for the gear selector are now on the left, out of view of the driver.
im going to do the cam gaskets and clean breathers and plenum this weekend so i will have a closer look at what other 'modifications' have been made. i did double take at one point when i was inside and wondered if i had been given the right car!! mrs ilovemyelite drove it back and so it wasn't til i was home i noticed.
the vx dealer's ever increasing time spent on the car which 'outweighs the original quote by 100%' is about to get worse!!
still, why not. a simple mistake i'm sure, but one they're going to have to rectify next week!!!!