Omega Owners Forum

Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Marks DTM Calib on 14 October 2007, 21:40:36

Title: Its worrying....
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 14 October 2007, 21:40:36
...my neighbour popped round and asked me to have a look at her car, there was a rubbing noise from the back under breaking apparantly.

The car is a 1995 1.1 fiesta with 40K on the clock, it has the usual Fiesta traites, LOUD tappets etc.

So, drove it and was slightly surprised at the lack of brakes, the rubbing was definately coming from the back.

Jacked the back up and got the drums off to find 50% of the friction material missing (broken away) and the slave cylinders lagging fluid out, the fluid wasnt going far because there was 40K miles of brake dust to soak it up!

So checked the front and couldnt get the wheels off....so drove up the road with 'lose wheel nuts' and slammed the (barely working) brakes on to free them off.

Got the wheels off and found the latest high tech metal to metal braking technology!

So, got to fit rear wheel cylinders, shoes, front discs and pads plus a fluid change.....and then I am going to adjust those bloody tappets!

The worrying thing is this car is road legal.....and I am not going to mention the tyres which have a legal tread depth but more crazing than a 70's patio.
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: hotel21 on 14 October 2007, 21:43:02
Know the feeling.....

Can be quite scary what the Aunt Mabels and Uncle Wullies of this world drive around in, quite oblivious to things mechanical until it goes pear shaped...
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Jay w on 14 October 2007, 21:44:45
one lady owner, never been raced or rallied..........
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 14 October 2007, 21:51:35
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one lady owner, never been raced or rallied..........

Its a 1.1 Fiesta, its not possible to race anything!

Plus this think is hardly stealthy.....we all know how poor and noisey that old pushrod power plant is!
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 14 October 2007, 22:01:29
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Quote
one lady owner, never been raced or rallied..........

Its a 1.1 Fiesta, its not possible to race anything!

Plus this think is hardly stealthy.....we all know how poor and noisey that old pushrod power plant is!

I had a 957cc Fiesta Popular pushrob jobbie as my first car in 2001... I absolutely hammered the nuts off it... it took so much stick, but never let me down :)
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: TheBoy on 14 October 2007, 22:01:50
LOL, but think of bargain you are goin gto get on the rum :y
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Kevin Wood on 14 October 2007, 22:05:12
Worth checking the breathers are clear while you're at it. Emma used to have one of those and (before I started maintaining it for her ::)) the oil got into such a state that it threw a con rod through the side of the block. It was blamed on contaminated oil, as there was plenty of it, and nothing to suggest a problem in supplying it to the bearings.

It certainly used to generate plenty of mayo. First time I serviced it I took off the rocker cover and there was an imprint in mayo of each rocker in the top of the cover :o This only a few K after a reconditioned engine was fitted (see above).

Oh, and the alternator is connected to the battery by 2 lengths of 17 amp cable in parallel. That burnt through on the A34 one night. Another callout for yours truly recovery service. Twas a fun drive back to Alton in the rain with no wipers and only sidelights ;)

I'm glad she's got a Mazda now. One coil pack failure in 70k  :y

Kevin


Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Jay w on 14 October 2007, 22:08:08
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one lady owner, never been raced or rallied..........

Its a 1.1 Fiesta, its not possible to race anything!

Plus this think is hardly stealthy.....we all know how poor and noisey that old pushrod power plant is!

the beauty of those engine was the valve bounce was the rev limiter!!!
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: ffcgary1 on 14 October 2007, 22:17:53
 Mark, the push rods on those valencia engines were noisy to a degree even when new. Dont be supprised if when you have adjusted the tappits it still sounds like a bucket of bolts. As to the condition of older cars, i am coming to the opinion that they should be subject to more regular testing than the yearly MOT.But when you see what the mot allows and then what it does not allow makes me shudder sometimes.

 Glad you got it done though, one more safer car out there. :y
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Dazzler on 14 October 2007, 23:08:02
By the sounds of the state of the brakes, my money will be on removal of the rocker cover you will be starring at pure carbon build up everywhere.....
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: phil her up on 14 October 2007, 23:25:59
Perhaps that's why old people drive so bloody slow...they all got crap brakes >:(
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Paul M on 15 October 2007, 00:20:28
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I'm glad she's got a Mazda now. One coil pack failure in 70k  :y


Aren't Mazda at least part owned by Ford? Certainly the old 121 was basically a re-badged Fiesta.
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Andy B on 15 October 2007, 07:31:37
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 ...... As to the condition of older cars, i am coming to the opinion that they should be subject to more regular testing than the yearly MOT. ........

How would that work then? How are you going to distinguish between and old 'shed' that is patched up and coaxed into an MOT every year and an old classic that is wheeled out of its garage polished & put back each week, possibly driven to a show or 2 each year. Or a 25year old Granada like my Dad's that's used for work every day and although nothing like concours is in excellent condition, both body wise & mechanically. There was even some discussion recently that Britain could possibly adopt the Euopean frequency of 'MOT' testing ie at 4 years then every other year.
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: IrmscherKris on 15 October 2007, 07:57:51
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one lady owner, never been raced or rallied..........
Yeah, I can see your point there! How many times have you bought a car off wimmins and been less thorough than you would if it were a younger lad?
Wifey's dad has got a Merc E300 TD and had it for 3 years? I asked him, "when did you last change the oil?" "never" he replied  :o So that's on the cards today amongst other problems.

It just goes to show, doesn't matter who has owned it - people neglect there cars, come in all shapes and sizes!
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Auto Addict on 15 October 2007, 08:22:13
Bloke across the road from me has got a Vectra SRi. Has it serviced every 12 months (does about 12K between services).

Last time (12 months ago) he was 2K short of a cambelt change, so, as it was not quite due, said leave it till next time.

Guess what happened 3 months ago.
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 15 October 2007, 08:31:18
Ow yes, its an engine I know all to well.

They realy are a bag of nails.....the rockers wear so you cant set valve clearence properly (the tips are not hardened).

The bore wear on them is frightening

The chains get noisey and you cant change them with the engine fitted

The breather system is rubbish (but in this case clear because I have already checked).

Black death is fitted as standard.

They are gutless.



And, yes you can get them quiet but, you have to remove the rockers and re-profile them to remove the groove before setting the clearance.

Its shocking this crock was fitted well into the 00's in KA's.
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Auto Addict on 15 October 2007, 08:33:34
Quote
Ow yes, its an engine I know all to well.

They realy are a bag of nails.....the rockers wear so you cant set valve clearence properly (the tips are not hardened).

The bore wear on them is frightening

The chains get noisey and you cant change them with the engine fitted

The breather system is rubbish (but in this case clear because I have already checked).

Black death is fitted as standard.

They are gutless.



And, yes you can get them quiet but, you have to remove the rockers and re-profile them to remove the groove before setting the clearance.

Its shocking this crock was fitted well into the 00's in KA's.

Not impressed then? ::)
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 15 October 2007, 08:37:40
Not in the least.....in the 60's it would have been a reasonable engine design but, by the 80's it should have been pensioned off.
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: VXL V6 on 15 October 2007, 08:46:30
I rememeber when I first met the X Mrs, she had a Fiesta 1.1 and the oil light was on, I filled it up with oil and she said 'oh it's been like that for a week!!!!'  :o
It was scrapped two weeks later! I asked the question... How many other red lights do you ignore then?  :o

Shocking!
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Martin_1962 on 15 October 2007, 08:54:36
Quote
Ow yes, its an engine I know all to well.

They realy are a bag of nails.....the rockers wear so you cant set valve clearence properly (the tips are not hardened).

The bore wear on them is frightening

The chains get noisey and you cant change them with the engine fitted

The breather system is rubbish (but in this case clear because I have already checked).

Black death is fitted as standard.

They are gutless.



And, yes you can get them quiet but, you have to remove the rockers and re-profile them to remove the groove before setting the clearance.

Its shocking this crock was fitted well into the 00's in KA's.

Name some good pushrod designs then?

I can name one - going to see if you mention it.
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: VXL V6 on 15 October 2007, 09:24:31
The LS7 in the Chevy Corvette is a pushrod isn't it?
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Andy B on 15 October 2007, 09:29:32
Quote
......
Name some good pushrod designs then?

I can name one - going to see if you mention it.

Good or bad I've no idea, but the Rover V8 was around for a very very long time in one guise or another. That was/is push rod via short hydraulic lifters on the cam.
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Kevin Wood on 15 October 2007, 09:34:03
Problem is, getting a car serviced is now relatively expensive compared to the value of a mundane car like this. I've spoken to people who say "it's not worth getting it serviced. It would cost more than is's worth" without realising that servicing is about replacing consumables. From an economic perspective, it doesn't make sense to fill some cars with petrol but you won't get far without it. In reality it doesn't matter how little your car is worth, if it's run out of brake pad you need to do something about it, just as you do when it's run out of petrol.

At the same time, main dealers have been peddling the myth that modern cars are so horrendously complicated that DIY car maintenance is now a thing of the past for most people, whereas when I was young I can remember my dad, and most of his mates, all did their own routine maintenance. I suspect taking it to a main dealer for new brake pads was even less affordable then than it is now, but people understood cars so they didn't, on the whole, get neglected.

Kevin
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Ken T on 15 October 2007, 10:04:43
I hope you warned them that the brakes now work well !. If they are used to pressing really hard cause of the previous state, and try that with 'MarkDTM brakes' they are going to get a shock ! ;D
Ken
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: x25xe on 15 October 2007, 10:49:26
Quote

Name some good pushrod designs then?

I can name one - going to see if you mention it.

The Rootes 1725 unit by any chance????
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Bo Bo on 15 October 2007, 10:55:56
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I had a 957cc Fiesta Popular pushrob jobbie as my first car
Same as.
I could hardly ever get 1st gear, imagine trying to pull away in 2nd all the time  ::)
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Martin_1962 on 15 October 2007, 11:14:24
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Name some good pushrod designs then?

I can name one - going to see if you mention it.

The Rootes 1725 unit by any chance????

Not a bad unit but I prefer the 1.6 as that is quite a modern design - only real drawback is it is not a cross flow design and the port size is restricted, the yank V8s are pretty reliable though, actually there are a few decent push rod lumps around.

The A series is popular but not a good engine - eg long stroke, siamesed ports, 3 bearing, Xflow suffers from long push rods and is difficult to get to the followers, the Ford V6s all have problems the 2.5 / 3.0 head warping, the 2.8 siamesed ports, 2.9 don't know much about it.

Despite being a 3 bearing lump the old Land Rover engine is supposed to be quite good.
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Kevin Wood on 15 October 2007, 11:34:46
The Xflow isn't too bad, not because it wasn't rubbish to start with, but because of the number of people who have put effort into sorting out the issues and tuning them. Mate of mine had a 190BHP one :o They generally make the Exxon Valdez look oil tight and need regular rebuilds, especially if on the standard pistons...

It always amazes me how many pushrod engines are around in the US. Got a brand new Chrysler Voyager hire car a couple of years ago. Looked under the bonnet - pushrod V6 engine. I remember laughing about them as being antique when they were still fitting the Cologne to early 90's granadas.

I guess if anyone's going to put a V6 in a UK car it's got to be pretty refined and perform well. In the US it could well be going in a poverty-spec car and thus there's a market for basic engines that doesn't exist here.

I heard that Ford were developing a 2 stroke direct injection engine destined for the Ka but the EU emissions rules shifted and scuppered their plans so they had a rummage around in the parts bin and found the pushrod lump there.

Kevin
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Martin_1962 on 15 October 2007, 12:59:52
The ecotec V6s are a modern engine, nothing really clever but a good basic lump
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: ffcgary1 on 15 October 2007, 15:16:09
I agree that some people people will have to spend a little more when i comes to maintaining their cars, and i would have fallen into that as well when i had my 84 reg 2.8i granny, but when you see the wrecks on the road that you and i both know at first sight would not pass a snail let alone an mot.There is no way anyone can say i didnt know when they put the brakes on and it sounds like a fileing cabinet being dragged along behind. Sorry but safty is first in my book. :o
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Jay w on 15 October 2007, 15:36:16
Quote
Ow yes, its an engine I know all to well.

They realy are a bag of nails.....the rockers wear so you cant set valve clearence properly (the tips are not hardened).

The bore wear on them is frightening

The chains get noisey and you cant change them with the engine fitted

The breather system is rubbish (but in this case clear because I have already checked).

Black death is fitted as standard.

They are gutless.



And, yes you can get them quiet but, you have to remove the rockers and re-profile them to remove the groove before setting the clearance.

Its shocking this crock was fitted well into the 00's in KA's.

so this is up there with the mini in your view then  ;)
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 18 October 2007, 08:39:30
Ok.....did the brakes on thsi car last night.

New slave cylinders (both leaking) and rear shoes pus a full brake fluid bleed (anybody interested in some 12 year old vintage brake fluid?)

Front discs and pads also done.

It was VERY bad with many of the pads having no friction material left at all.

It is much better, tappets are the next job and head light aim (god knows how this got through an MOT 500 miles ago)
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Andy B on 18 October 2007, 09:25:42
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....... There is no way anyone can say i didnt know when they put the brakes on and it sounds like a fileing cabinet being dragged along behind.  ...

 .... but some people are clueless when it comes to their cars, they just don't hear things like that. They wouldn't know if it was goosed or not hence all the idiot proof bit we have on cars now ... low pad warning, low oil level, yellow oil filler caps etc etc
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Kevin Wood on 18 October 2007, 09:31:38
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(god knows how this got through an MOT 500 miles ago)

That's the shocking bit. I got pulled up at my last MOT for low pads. They were at about the level at which changing them is on my todo list but still perfectly safe. And yet a deathtrap like this sails through. Presumably you can't see the pad condition without dismantling?

Kevin
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 18 October 2007, 09:35:43
I will post some pictures tonight.....
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Andy B on 18 October 2007, 09:46:49
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Quote
(god knows how this got through an MOT 500 miles ago)

That's the shocking bit. I got pulled up at my last MOT for low pads. They were at about the level at which changing them is on my todo list but still perfectly safe. And yet a deathtrap like this sails through. Presumably you can't see the pad condition without dismantling?

Kevin

I questioned that when I MOT'd my Astra earlier this year. The car quite rightly failed on other things but surely brakes are tested to an efficiency and not to a pad level, the rear shoes weren't much better but obviously the test couldn't see them.
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: P_Russell on 18 October 2007, 12:35:19
My '93 Astra passed it's MOT with flying colours this year.  When the brakes were serviced the rear drums were seized on, shoes falling apart, cylinders leaking & front dics badly wartped & pitted.  Just because it stopped 'efficienty' it passed.

Oh yes, and this was at a Vauxhall main dealer  :o

(I know I should know better than let them get in that state.....)
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: VXL V6 on 18 October 2007, 14:11:15
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My '93 Astra passed it's MOT with flying colours this year.  When the brakes were serviced the rear drums were seized on, shoes falling apart, cylinders leaking & front dics badly wartped & pitted.  Just because it stopped 'efficienty' it passed.

Oh yes, and this was at a Vauxhall main dealer  :o

(I know I should know better than let them get in that state.....)

Testers aren't allowed to dismantle anything so as long as the braking efficiency meets the required (outdated) standard then it will pass.
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: P_Russell on 18 October 2007, 16:55:25
Not a criticism of the garage as I realise they are constrained and they did indicate the front discs were poor, more an indication of the shortcomings test itself - people put too much blind faith in it.
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 18 October 2007, 21:18:44
Heres the shoes....

(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/Marks_DTM_Calib/DSC00102.jpg)

The discs and pads....

(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/Marks_DTM_Calib/DSC00104.jpg)

And a wall I built this evening.... ;D

(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/Marks_DTM_Calib/DSC00100.jpg)
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: TheBoy on 18 October 2007, 21:26:46
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My '93 Astra passed it's MOT with flying colours this year.  When the brakes were serviced the rear drums were seized on, shoes falling apart, cylinders leaking & front dics badly wartped & pitted.  Just because it stopped 'efficienty' it passed.

Oh yes, and this was at a Vauxhall main dealer  :o

(I know I should know better than let them get in that state.....)
With the skill and expertise you have in the family, why don't you do such stuff yourself?
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: TheBoy on 18 October 2007, 21:27:59
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And a wall I built this evening.... ;D
Looks good :y

But Pete is getting more bricks down faster ;D
Title: Re: Its worrying....
Post by: Andy B on 18 October 2007, 23:35:05
There looks to be loads of life left in those front pads!  ;D  ;D  I have to admit that I took my Omega's rear pads down to Rizla thickness. :-[