Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Omega Steve on 10 April 2008, 00:53:13
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First of all greetings everyone, this is my first post on this forum (although i do recognise many names here) lol
Sorry my first post is a bit of a nightmare but i am at a lost at the moment and could do with some help.
I have a 2.0 Omega GLS Auto (00) its been off the road all week because it started misfiring and as i tried to troubleshoot it the problem got worst and resulted in a weird engine problem.
In a nut shell, the car wont start, i can hold the key, it turns, it fires a bit, it chucks loads of fuel into and down the exhaust and thats it.
If i take the Aux belt off (no alternating power) it starts and runs on what sounds like all 4 cylinders
Problem in both cases is i have error code 0201 - Injector valve 1 - and when it does run as above it is in limp mode.
to tackle this i have changed the following with no result at all
DIS module
Alternator (Tested at an electrical company that specialises in Alternators and Starters)
HT leads
Plugs
Exhaust manifold (to correct a blow due to warping)
Lambda sensor (fuel is getting to here as well when Aux belt is on and engine tries to start)
Downpipe with CAT (changed due to wear and tear)
I have also checked the timing and that's ok, its just strange, as the engine runs without the aux belt it rules a lot of things out to me, including any problems with the injectors, but im currently at a lost and looking into the earthing side of things.
Does this sound like anything anyone has experienced before, does anyone have any ideas for me to try, i would be ever so great full.
Steve DG
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An odd one indeed. "Injector valve 1" implies the circuit to one of the fuel injectors is playing up. These attach to connectors on the bottom of the cable tray on the inlet side so it could be that one of the connectors is loose or has pulled out.
It should run on 3 cylinders in this case regardless of the aux. belt.
I can only think that the alternator is disturbing things. If it is generating an overvoltage maybe the ECU is stopping the engine to protect the electrics? However, you have had the alternator tested. :-/
I can only suggest checking the fuel injector circuits, and also the usual suspects such as checking the plug wells for oil or water build-up.
Might be worth checking the security of the straps between engine, battery negative terminal and body. I'm thinking if one of these came loose it might cause an electrical issue when the alternator starts charging.
Let us know how you get on and welcome to the forum. :y
Kevin
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Thanks Kevin, its just a weird problem, today i'm thinking of changing the injectors, i've sourced some from a breakers yard but i don't know if there is any difference but the plastic connectors a purple and mine are red, but they look identical. Im also wondering if i have a bad earth somewhere in-line with the alternator, im going to disconnect the air con condenser and see what happens and try and get to the leads on top of the starter motor, failing all that i guess i will have to start thinking of an ECU problem or something, brrrr, don't want to go down that road yet....
I will let you know how i get on, hopefully it will be something really silly.
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The more I think about it the more I think it's likely to be a grounding strap. All other ancillaries can only affect the engine by effectively stalling it. That's unlikely. If the alternator were to start charging and the grounding strap to the battery / body was loose, current would likely flow through the engine loom ground connections and this would disturb readings from sensors, etc.
Try running it with the aux belt on, but with a jump lead connected from the engine to the battery negative terminal.
kevin
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My uncle brought round a compression test and we tested it and found piston 2 and 3 in the red whilst 1 and 4 were showing in the green, not sure if this will affect the engine in this way, anyway, ive just got back from the breakers yard with a replacement head with all exhaust studs already removed ;)
Im going to do that and go from there, i really need my car for the weekend so im going to get on with it, either i will simply get back full compression on all 4 and still have the same problem or it will do the trick, i have looked at the battery earth to body and its not lose, i know this does not mean its not corroded but when i do the head i can check the starter motor connections as well as the other.
here we go lol, i will let you know how it goes....
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Before removing the head, check the earth connection point on the inlet manifold (in front of the throttle body) as this is where the injectors earth to. Its worth trying a jump lead between the battery neg and an engine lifting eye to.
Under these conditions I normaly monitor the injectors using an oscilloscope because you can then see if they are actually operating by looking for the back EMF when they shut again.
As for the alternator, it might be a bit of a red herring as you would be removing a reasonable amount of idle load from the engine with the belt off.....
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What were the compression figures you got? Was the engine run up to normal temperature first? Is it losing coolant, pressurising the cooling system or building up excessive mayo in the crankcase?
I think you need to be 100% sure you've found the problem before pulling anything apart because if not you run the risk of doing a lot of work and being no further down the road.
There is something electrical going on as evidenced by the fact that it won't run with the aux. belt on and it is throwing and error code related to an injector circuit. I'd concentrate on fixing those before worrying about the compression.
Kevin
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I cant remember the numbers on the compression dial at the moment, but if 0 was normal (green) pots 2 and 3 were -4
I've only just had the time to get back to the post Kevin, however, i have already stripped everything down, i have found a serious problem with the head gasket, it has completely burnt through where piston 2 and 3 join and there is heavy burning where pot 3 and 4 join, (i also found the heater bypass valve blocked nothing to do with my problem im sure), during the process i checked as much of the loom as i could and i cant see anything obvious.
I will let you know what happens when i put it all back together tomorrow, i know the head gasket in this condition cant be a good thing.
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Thats not good!
im not sure whether this could be your burning smell? butit might contribut to it..
the boys will know if it could. :)
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OK. I was worried that stripping down the head might have been a waste of time but it clearly wasn't. :y
As I said, check the grounding straps to the engine when you re-assemble and also the ground connection on the inlet manifold that Mark referred to.
Kevin
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Cheers Kevin,
Im just about to get started, need to go back to the breakers to get a water hose as ive notices one of mine is damaged and will probably go, dead easy to change with the head off.
I will check the earths, the earth on/around the fuel rail that mark suggested was on ok, this is the 10mm nut and then the 10mm bolt all in one.
Will report back later hopefully with some good news.
Steve
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Right Guys,
UPDATE
I have just finished putting it back together and yes unfortunately i do still have the same problem, its hard to start but does start now but it initially seems to throw a load of petrol down the exhaust pipe, but im not sure if its exactly the same problem after that it runs ok but is in limp mode, i have a new error code P0500 No Speed Signal, ive not seen this one before and my angle and cam sensor are both plugged in, it is possible that i cured 0201 but its not yet cleared ? its a shame i have the new one.
Im yet to find a jump lead around here and try adding the extra earth, im just gutted that although i have a nice quite engine now, it still has the same problem. :'(
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I am not surprised, its not like anything yet has been done which would have addressed the original fault code.
Do check the wiring loom in the cable tray relating to the injector in question.
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Thanks mark, Im still checking the wiring mark, i dont know whats going on now, i now have 4 error codes
0201 - Injector 1
1502 - Immobiliser control unit
0500 - Idle speed stepper motor/idle air regulator
1690 - MIL/Engine fail (malfunction indicator lamp)
Im still checking the wiring and will report back, thanks for everyones support.
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It might be worth cheking the resistance of all the injectors using an ohmmeter. Typical value would be around 12 ohms.
Failing that it's probably a wiring issue. Given that the idle valve is throwing a code too I do wonder if there is a problem with the ground point on the inlet manifold.
Kevin
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Hi Guys,
Well ive tried everything thats been suggested so far and still no luck, Mark i have checked the cable for the injectors all the way accross to the ECU connector and i can see anything wrong with it, i have also tried a secondary earth from the Battery Negative to the fuel rail earthing point and still no joy, the same codes remain.
It starts up but its compensating and a little lumpy, EML is on im sure its only running on 3 as the fuel is just flowing through one of the pots, Its burning fuel like a space rocket and bellowing a blue tint smoke, fuel is still spitting out of the exhaust manifold joint I have used 2 jerry cans in the last 4 hours just testing the engine here and there.
Not sure where to go from here, im starting to thine ECU might be up the duff ? ?
Any suggestions guys ?
Steve :'(
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Oh i forgot to mention, i checked the ohms resistance and all the injectors register at 14.5
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I wonder if you've got an injector stuck open?
Kevin
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I wonder if you've got an injector stuck open?
Kevin
Its possible, easy to spot with an oscilloscope.
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Hi Guys,
Unfortunately i don't have an oscilloscope but i do have a collection of Injectors i got from the breakers, i have two types, all are exactly the same, one set has purple electrical connectors and the others like mine have red (out of interest do you know the difference if any ? ) i could try replacing them tomorrow, it would make sense as when the car has not been started for a while it is a pig to start, even after the cylinder head job i did, im going to test the compression tomorrow as well out of interest and see if 2 and 3 are still low. (they shouldn't be) lol i have been wondering if this fuel issue i have in some way contributed to the head gasket damage i described earlier.
Thanks again guys
Steve
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See if you can read a part number from the injectors and compare them. The colours of the bodies are sometimes different on identical injectors and vice versa, IME, although they are often referred to by colour. However, if they are similar style and resistance and came from an engine of similar capacity the engine will at least run so they may be useful for diagnosis even if they aren't the correct injectors.
Another test would be to press the valve on the fuel rail pressure test point after it's been sitting for a while. If you don't get a spray of fuel it's likely that the pressure has leaked down through an injector.
It's possible that you've got a wiring fault that is permanently actuating one of the injectors, and this might tie in with the ECU fault code that's being stored. Are any of the injectors getting warm with the ignition on for a few minutes?
Kevin
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UPDATE: >:(
Unfortunately i believe i might have found my problem, im hoping you do not agree but lets see.
I rigged up a light bulb (used from the rear cluster lol) and tested for power in all the injector connectors on the plastic harness.
As i turned the engine over the bulb glow when testing Injector one and pulsed, the other 3 did nothing, now this could have something to do with the ECU knowing the engine has not fired i dont know.
I ran a continuity test from all the plug connectors to the ECU plug to make sure the wiring was alright and that tested ok on all four.
I am now thinking that its starting to look like the ECU is not doing its job ? Does anyone agree or am i overlooking something here.
Cheers
Steve
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For what its worth, i have had a good look at both sides of the ECU circuit board under a big magnify glass, tested the pins continuity to there first neighbouring circuits and all looks ok, no signs of damage, burning etc.
Also, looking at a Simtec wiring diagram i noticed the power for the injectors also travels through the Fuel Pump Relay first, another lead perhaps ?
Steve
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When you say in the first injector the bulb glows do you mean constantly while cranking? Injector pulses when cranking will be very low duty cycle, and all injectors should be the same for a start. Too short to see with a bulb. If one is glowing it points to a wiring problem or possibly a bad injector driver in the ECU.
Kevin
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Hi Kevin,
Yes when i wire the bulb to injector 1 it blinks quickly whilst cranking, the other 3 do nothing ?
What's a Injection Driver in the ECU, is this a piece of software and is this something that can stop working all of a sudden.
Do you think i should send the ECU to a repair shop for diagnosis ?
Cheers
Steve
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Any suggestions anyone, i really want to get back on the road this week.
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Yes when i wire the bulb to injector 1 it blinks quickly whilst cranking, the other 3 do nothing ?
I find this odd. I would expect all of the injectors to have the same behaviour but it's difficult to determine from the description if what you're seeing from No. 1 injector is correct. My gut feeling is that because injector no.1 appears to have a different signal from the others, and that there was a trouble code relating to this circuit, that something is wrong.
But.. What do you actually see on injector 1? I would expect a very quick flicker of the light every 2 rotations of the engine as the injector fires. TBH, I'd expect it to be too quick to pick up with a bulb, and only just visible if you conenct an LED to the signal.
What's a Injection Driver in the ECU, is this a piece of software and is this something that can stop working all of a sudden.
I was thinking about the hardware in the ECU which drives current through the injectors. It could be that this has been damaged although ECU failures are very rare.
Do you think i should send the ECU to a repair shop for diagnosis ?
It would be worth checking the wiring over very carefully first, in particular the run from the ECU to the 1st injector.
Does the engine run (on 3) if you disconnect injector no. 1?
Kevin
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Cheers Kevin,
When i turn the key to ignition the bulb glows and then when i crank it it flickers quickly.
I will check it out what you suggest and report back, remember i have tested continuity of all the injector wires and all seems to be ok.
Did you have any thoughts on the Fuel Relay and if that could play any part to my problem ?
Thanks for al your help
Steve
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Cheers Kevin,
When i turn the key to ignition the bulb glows and then when i crank it it flickers quickly.
I will check it out what you suggest and report back, remember i have tested continuity of all the injector wires and all seems to be ok.
Did you have any thoughts on the Fuel Relay and if that could play any part to my problem ?
Thanks for al your help
Steve
When you carry out this bulb test, are the injectors still connected?
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Hi Mark,
None of the actual injectors were connected, i pulled the plastic adaptor (which fits all four injectors) off and tested individually ?
Would that cause me a problem, i still thought the ECU would talk to all for of the connectors ?
Cheers
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I imagine you've already done this, but as well as a continuity check, you actually need to physically check all the injector wires for abrasion. I had a problem last year caused by friction between injector wires and the main bulk of loom wires in that tray. Wire to wire shorts between injector wires and one of the passing coolant temperature sensor wires. Killed the CTS, but not any injectors, luckily.
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If the bulb is glowing before the engine turns then there is a problem. You should only see very brief flickers from the light, and only when cranking the engine.
Power for the injectors is normally fed from the main relay IIRC (next to the fuel pump relay) which is actuated by the ECU. I guess they could be fed from the fuel pump relay on this setup, though. I've never looked closely.
Either way, you should have +12 volts on one pin of the injector (may need to be cranking for the ECU to switch the relay on) and the driver in the ECU grounds the other pin of the injector when it fires. Unless there's something dragging down the ground signal from the ECU to the injector I'd say it is starting to look like a problem with the ECU. :(
Kevin
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Just to add, one thing you could do is to remove the ECU, bridge the contacts on the main relay so the engine loom has power and see if the bulb on injector 1 still glows. This will tell you if the glow is a wiring problem or something internal to the ECU.
Kevin
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Interesting...... I will check it all out.....
Cheers Guys...... will let you know how it goes....
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You say you buzzed the wires out for the injectors but, did you also do resistance checks to 0V and live feed?
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Sorry Mark, I don't think so, what do you mean exactly ?
Negative of each plug to earth of car ?
Im treading water a little here with the electronics but im confident i will get to the bottom of it, lol, i hope.
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Sorry Mark, I don't think so, what do you mean exactly ?
Negative of each plug to earth of car ?
Im treading water a little here with the electronics but im confident i will get to the bottom of it, lol, i hope.
Measuring the resistance between each injector wire and 0V (no such thing as an earth on a car).
The way I see it is that we need to be sure that there is no low ohm connection between the injector wiring and 0V (the ECU is a low side driver on the injector feed) before pointing the finger at the ECU.
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Ok, this might sound crazy but how do i do that ?
I have measured the resistance of the actual injectors and they were 14.5 Ohms
Where do i get a 0V from ? and i will go check them all now, (you do mean all 8 connectors off the loom that plugs onto the injectors right) ?
I always thought the chassis of the car was all 0V earth ?
Thx
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Ok, this might sound crazy but how do i do that ?
I have measured the resistance of the actual injectors and they were 14.5 Ohms
Where do i get a 0V from ? and i will go check them all now, (you do mean all 8 connectors off the loom that plugs onto the injectors right) ?
I always thought the chassis of the car was all 0V earth ?
Thx
The engine/chassis is all 0v. There is no earth on a car (unless you have the earth straps that rub on road). Its technically incorrect to call the chassis earth, but many people do.
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Ok, this might sound crazy but how do i do that ?
I have measured the resistance of the actual injectors and they were 14.5 Ohms
Where do i get a 0V from ? and i will go check them all now, (you do mean all 8 connectors off the loom that plugs onto the injectors right) ?
I always thought the chassis of the car was all 0V earth ?
Thx
Correct, the chassis is all 0V but, is not earth. Unless you have driven a bloody great spike into the ground and connected the car body work to it!
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[/quote]
The engine/chassis is all 0v. There is no earth on a car (unless you have the earth straps that rub on road). Its technically incorrect to call the chassis earth, but many people do.[/quote]
ah, I see what you mean.....
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Ok, this might sound crazy but how do i do that ?
I have measured the resistance of the actual injectors and they were 14.5 Ohms
Where do i get a 0V from ? and i will go check them all now, (you do mean all 8 connectors off the loom that plugs onto the injectors right) ?
I always thought the chassis of the car was all 0V earth ?
Thx
Correct, the chassis is all 0V but, is not earth. Unless you have driven a bloody great spike into the ground and connected the car body work to it!
I've seen an Escort van skewered on one of those concrete bollards - does that count ::)
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Correct, the chassis is all 0V but, is not earth. Unless you have driven a bloody great spike into the ground and connected the car body work to it![/quote]
LMAO : Ok i get it, (but maybe that will help my injector to work) lol only j/k
I will let you know what results i get from the Ohms test, thx Mark.
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Ok, that was very Interesting, i think.
Measured the Ohms on all 4 and number 1 is what i think the term is called grounded.
results were
Injector 1 + 00.6
Injector 1 - 01.2
Injector 2 + 0
Injector 2 - 01.2
Injector 3 + 0
Injector 3 - 01.2
Injector 4 + 0
Injector 4 - 01.2
So i guess Injector 1 should not be giving a reading on the + side, also i get a closed circuit between that and 0V unlike the other 3 injectors which are open circuit.
Hmmmmmm
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So, injector 1 is 0.6 ohms and injectors 2-4 are open circuit (not zero ohms as you have written)?
Does that reading change when you unplug the ECU?
Kevin
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Sorry Kevin, yes, i did mean open circuit
Right, when i disconnect the ECU, Injector one + side returns to normal (open circuit)
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So the output is shorted in the ECU.....
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So the output is shorted in the ECU.....
Thanks Mark, yes it looks that way, :'( at least i know what's wrong now.
Do you think its possible to repair this on the circuit board, would this be like a resistor, solder joint or would it most likely be a chip in there.
I think i might have to send the unit away for repair, do you think that would be the best way to fix it as i will keep the codes etc on my unit.
Steve
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So the output is shorted in the ECU.....
Thanks Mark, yes it looks that way, :'( at least i know what's wrong now.
Do you think its possible to repair this on the circuit board, would this be like a resistor, solder joint or would it most likely be a chip in there.
I think i might have to send the unit away for repair, do you think that would be the best way to fix it as i will keep the codes etc on my unit.
Steve
Its likely to be a chip.
Most commercial injector drivers drive the injector with an initial high current to get them to open followed by a weaker hold current. Doing this minimises the back EMF and also speeds the close time up and hence they can be quite a complex IC.
If you get the thing repaired then phone round for a quote first.
Try
BBA Raman
http://www.bba-reman.com/
or
http://www.ecutesting.com/ecu_testing__exchange___repair.html
I have used the lower one before.
If going down the second hand route then you would need the immobiliser chips from the keys, the immobiliser ECU and the engine ECU.
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I used BBA Reman for an ABS ECU repair, found them to give excellent service.
It is worth giving them a ring on 01634 230 055 first as when I did that they explained every little detail of their procedures to me, left me in no doubt as to what they did, how they did it, what the warranty was, costs, delivery .. everything.
And then they did the job exactly as advertised... :)
I certainly rate them highly
HTH
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I have decided to send of my ECU to a company called ECUtesting.com based in Nottingham to be honest they were the first people i called who quoted me 100.00 + vat for a rebuild of my ECU, I then phoned a store not that far from me who laughed and said he would not do it for that, thought i was having him on so i will see if they deliver the goods, so far they have been very professional and competent.
To be honest when i looked at the BBA website i thought they were in the business of selling new ECUs so i started looking around.
I will let you know the outcome... thanks everyone, especially Kevin and Mark for staying with me on this.
Cheers
Steve
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I have decided to send of my ECU to a company called ECUtesting.com based in Nottingham to be honest they were the first people i called who quoted me 100.00 + vat for a rebuild of my ECU, I then phoned a store not that far from me who laughed and said he would not do it for that, thought i was having him on so i will see if they deliver the goods, so far they have been very professional and competent.
To be honest when i looked at the BBA website i thought they were in the business of selling new ECUs so i started looking around.
I will let you know the outcome... thanks everyone, especially Kevin and Mark for staying with me on this.
Cheers
Steve
Right........................
Got the ECU back today from ECU Testing . com and it has resolved the problem with the injector malfunction, EML is no more..... but before i write a success story i do have a new problem which at first glance seems quite serious but i need to look into it further.
Basically, engine is running on all 4 now and ticking over nicely, when i went out for a spin i noticed a minor lack in power when the car gets to around 50 mph, then a major lack of power followed by a load of thick (i think it was blueish) smoke from the rear exhaust which returns to normal when power is reduced and car is driven at low speeds ?
Im off to borrow a compression test to check that but im worried there may be some issues with the oil rings but im not concluding that just yet.
Its a shame because i have done a lot of work in one go which doesnt help, i now have a second hand cylinder head which i dont know the history of and perhaps (although i checked all the valves) might be causing some issues.
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Thats the outfit I have used before and they are very good generally.
As for the smoke, do check the obvious.....i.e. airfilter, fuel filter etc.
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Thats the outfit I have used before and they are very good generally.
As for the smoke, do check the obvious.....i.e. airfilter, fuel filter etc.
Almost There.......
Right, the smoke was mainly down to having too much oil in the engine, i removed to the max level (about a litre) and that seems to have stopped.
As for the lack of power, well, losing the excess oil has helped but it has identified that I'm not losing compression or electrical power but i seem to be losing fuel feed, just going to get a fuel filter and start from there.
It is running ok but if you put your foot down lets say on a nice long straight you can keep your foot down and the engine will stop revving for a about 3/4 secs and then carry on, and then repeat, asif its running out of fuel and then not, its not that noticeable at low speeds.
I would not be surprised if the filter is partially blocked, with this problem i have ran the tank empty 4/5 times and a month ago it had two treatments of Redex.
Will report back..
PS: The ECU repair place is not far from you Mark, it cost me £129.00 for a rebuild of my own ECU, but i did have a few administration issues , first of all i called to see if they had received my ECU and the quote i was originally given was upped to 180+vat which i took as maybe i had not heard them right in the first place, but when it came to paying it was in fact £108+£8 shipping+vat and for some reason they forgot to dispatch my ECU and that caused 2 days delay but apart from all that i was happy with the service especially the price and it has a 2 year warranty and the main thing is they have actually repaired it.
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Classic blocked fuel filter symptoms!
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Classic blocked fuel filter symptoms!
Indeed, but not the case for me (asif i would get an easy problem)lol, replaced fuel filter, no change, however, when i turn the key to ignition i can no longer hear the fuel pump priming ? ? or at least that's what i think i used to hear, sounded like it came from drivers side, underneath, but on the other hand if the pump was not working would the car even run ? Its fine running around town, occasionally stalling at junctions, but take it on the (/) and as soon as you put your foot down the car acts up, reduce the revs it seems better and you can build up speed fine (just not in a hurry) lol
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Could be that the fuel pump is on its' way out.
One way you can test it is to remove the return line back to the tank, extend this with a bit of fuel line into a suitable container and run the engine at idle whilst checking the flow rate. At a guess, you should see around 3 litres per minute or more out of the return line.
If that appears OK I would suspect a faulty fuel pressure regulator or blocked injector(s).
Alternatively, could be an air leak in the induction system causing air to enter the system without passing the MAF.
Don't suppose the air filter is clogged?
Kevin
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Could be that the fuel pump is on its' way out.
One way you can test it is to remove the return line back to the tank, extend this with a bit of fuel line into a suitable container and run the engine at idle whilst checking the flow rate. At a guess, you should see around 3 litres per minute or more out of the return line.
If that appears OK I would suspect a faulty fuel pressure regulator or blocked injector(s).
Alternatively, could be an air leak in the induction system causing air to enter the system without passing the MAF.
Don't suppose the air filter is clogged?
Kevin
Cheers Kevin, ive got it working now.....
Right here is the deal, when i put the ECU back in i went to the nearest petrol station (also where i got the jerry cans worth from) and stuck a score in, this is also when i realised i had this fuel starvation problem, anyway to cut a long story short i ran that down to red troubleshooting this new problem, went to Sainsburys and stuck 40 quid in (half a tank) give or take and when i got to a (/) road i opened her up and the problem has now gone, so i can only conclude....
A) The petrol from the nearest garage is tainted or
B) The problem will re occur when the fuel gets to around quarter tank meaning i have a problem with the fuel pick-up.
Im more incline to go with option A but time will tell.
Car is now running like it should except on idle its jumping up and down a bit (it was doing this before my saga began) so ICV off tomorrow for a good clean.
Guys, thanks very much will all your help and suggestions though out my ordeal. :y
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Sounds like you're almost there :y
Could be that the pump is struggling on a low tank, or that it hadn't primed properly, or indeed that it was bad fuel, or there was rubbish in the bottom of the tank that got stirred up. Either way, a few things to go on if it recurrs.
Kevin