Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: OhmyOmega on 25 May 2008, 13:49:53
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Hi - feeling a bit lost.
Replaced cam belt -eventually. Initially tried to do without a kit but horrendous pinking and ran deardfully.
Got the Shealey kit and after much tinkering got a consistent result in that all timing marks came back to the same point on 2 revolutions but...
Cam 1 & 2 spot on. Cams 3-4 slightly wall eyed. With cam 3 exactly on the mark came for was 1/3 to 1/3 a tooth past its mark. While I could adjust 1&2 and 3&4 in relation to crank and each other I could not adjust 3&4 in relation to each other so compromised but splitting the difference. Cam 3 just before and Cam 4 just after the timing marks on the tool.
Car starts but runs rough - no power, won't go over 30mph and the eml is on.
During the fitting saga (about 4-5 attempts complete rebuild each time) the engine was started once with just the cam belt on and no sensors and twice with all the sensors connected but without the ram air built up.
The eml codes are
94 Hall sensor voltage high
73 Mass air flow sensor voltage low
57 Idle air control voltage low
129 EG valve feedback voltage low.
I have checked and rechecked all the connections and it is still pinking and sounds rough.
So that leads to some questions;
1) Do allw the cams have to be exactly on the mark or is there so latitude and if no how do I adjust cam 3 agans cam 4?
2) Is the rough running likely to be engine management or timing.
3) What do the codes mean. What can I do to check the componets are working.
Cost is a real issue here so I don't want to go down the line of just replacing stuff only to find it the problem is not resolved.
I would be really greatful for some ideas as to what to do next.
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Oh lord. Need to be methodical here.
First thing, if the timing isn't 100% spot on with all cams, don't run it. Can you pop the timing cover off and show us pics of the alignment tool on the cams, with the crank locked at TDC?
Re the fault codes, if you ran it without sensors plugged in, you'll store a few! The thing to do would be to check everything is home, clear the rogue codes, and see what returns.
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Hi James
Yeah I know about the starting but that was done before I looked at the forum and realised the importance of the kit. I had the assistance of an experienced mechanic - but they had not done a V6 kit before. But then I guess you knew that.
Can't get it all stipped down tonight will post photos as soon as a I can.
You suggest clearing the codes - how will I do that? Does that entail getting a garage to do it?
Many thanks for you assistance
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If you take off grounding from battery for half an hour, it should then clear codes.
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Hi,
Although all the camshaft marks should be lined up exactly, as James says, I would not have thought that the miss alignment you have would have made the difference to running you describe. I have changed belts on cars that on preliminary checking prior to taking any old belt off, have been further out than you describe, and they were running OK. I am sure you have more of a problem than just slightly out on cam marking.
I wonder with all your previous attempts you have got one of the 3 or 4 cams on the wrong marks. You will see that all the cams have more than one set of marks on them. If you have a Haynes manual, it explains what the different marks are for. (For if the wheels are fitted to inlet or exhaust cams etc)
If you don't have a Haynes, I would get one.
I presume you have not taken off any of the camshaft drive wheels.
I think you are going to have to go right back to the beginning and follow directions from refitting the camshafts etc and see if you have all the cams in the right position. Then put the belt on and see if marks line up.
I have only done 7 cambelt changes, (not all on my car) but I have never found one that I couldn't get all marks lined up perfectly.
Have you been working on any part of the HT system, or damaged any leads to Knock sensors etc.
Until you get this running somewhere near right, you will get all manner of codes. When it is right, the codes will go and EML light will go out. Running it without everything in place will have put all manner of codes up anyway.
When I fixed the problem of a missfire, my EML didn't go out untill I had covered about 20 miles, so don't be too hasty on the codes.
Have patience, and think logically where you may have gone wrong.
Roger
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Humm thank you. Yes I have the haynes manual and I have also been trough the guidance that came with the cam belt and the Sealey manual I downloaded for the timing and locking kit. I am pretty sure that the nearside bank is set to the correct marks. Both on 3/4 though now I come to think of it the 1&2 cams have separate marks for 1 & 2 about 60o apart but not so on 3/4. That seems odd but that is the way the manual describes. Still now you mention it there is doubt in my mind. The question is I guess is there anything other than the timing that could give the result I am seeing and how would I know?
Oh dear - this is looking like a saga in he making, as it if wasn't already.
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Sounds to me if Big roger may have the answer. I'd focus on double checking the belt first: the fault codes are a subsuduary problem at this stage: probably thrown up by starting without various stuff plugged in. Logically, if the belt is not right the every time you start up you risk the whole engine. there is less risk in starting if you have a fault code stored.
I've just dug my haynes manual out: look at pages 2d.4 and 2c.d. they gove a very good picture of cams 3 and 4 and the timing marks. the pictures of 1&2 are less clear but you can see a 1 and 2 near the marks.
I ran into some trouble on a cambelt refit and the best thing to do is to stop take your time and have a cuppa: trying to rush through it will cause more probs.
Do post pics and progress on here. the guys on here (I don't count myself it that!!!) really know their stuff so you will get through it
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If you take off grounding from battery for half an hour, it should then clear codes.
It's non volatile memory, you need a tool to clear the codes...
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If you take off grounding from battery for half an hour, it should then clear codes.
It's non volatile memory, you need a tool to clear the codes...
or 20 fault free starts and will self clear. Agree disconnecting batt will not do it.
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I've just dug my haynes manual out: look at pages 2d.4 and 2c.d. they gove a very good picture of cams 3 and 4 and the timing marks. the pictures of 1&2 are less clear but you can see a 1 and 2 near the marks.
Thank you for making me look at the manual. The picture on 2C.4 fig 3.5b shows EXACTLY the same misalignment I had on my belt and also show how it was when I last put it together. :o Notice in the picture that Cam 3 is a tad before and Cam 4 is a tad after the mark - and that allowing for paralax.
Having seen that I really don't think it is the timing. :'(
WSY all!
Please!
Pretty please
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If you take off grounding from battery for half an hour, it should then clear codes.
That won't clear them.
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I've just dug my haynes manual out: look at pages 2d.4 and 2c.d. they gove a very good picture of cams 3 and 4 and the timing marks. the pictures of 1&2 are less clear but you can see a 1 and 2 near the marks.
Thank you for making me look at the manual. The picture on 2C.4 fig 3.5b shows EXACTLY the same misalignment I had on my belt and also show how it was when I last put it together. :o Notice in the picture that Cam 3 is a tad before and Cam 4 is a tad after the mark - and that allowing for paralax.
Having seen that I really don't think it is the timing. :'(
WSY all!
Please!
Pretty please
Yep, see what you mean. The correct way of checking the cam timing is with the timing tool in your sealey kit - the cam timing marks should line up almost perfectly with the notches in that tool. also in 3.5b, you can see that there are two marks on each cam: Bank 3 is on the left hand mark, bank 4 on the right hand mark.
Cams 1 and 2 also have two notches. Cam 1 should be on notch 1, cam 2 on notch 2.
I would not worry at all about a slight misalignment with the back cam cover marks - they are a rough guide: it is the alignment tool that you should rely on
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Hi Jonathan. Fair point. I should have made it clear that I had the same degree of error on the Sealey timing gauge.
From what I am hearing the slight misalignment between 3 & 4 is not enough to get the poor running and pinking. That said I now need some clues as to what else it could be.
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Hi Jonathan. Fair point. I should have made it clear that I had the same degree of error on the Sealey timing gauge.
From what I am hearing the slight misalignment between 3 & 4 is not enough to get the poor running and pinking. That said I now need some clues as to what else it could be.
o.k. you can clear your fault codes by turning the ignition on 20 times. no need to fully start it, just need to turn on and let the system self check. This should clear the old codes and may leave you with a better idea of the current problems.
Make sure you have pushed all multiplugs fully home - some of mine were quite stiff.
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Cams 3 and 4 can only be a whole tooth out as there is no adjustment between them. If the error is not a whole tooth there's nothing you can do about it, and it may just be down to the fact that the belt is not evenly tensioned. Check that the tensioner marks are set correctly and, if it's a fraction of a tooth, I wouldn't worry about it.
I'd double check that everything is back together OK. Check particularly that the IAT sensor and front multiram solenoid are not swapped over as the connector is the same. Also check that the wire that runs down to the driver's side knock sensor didn't get trapped under the aux belt tensiner bracket when it was refitted.
.. then see which trouble codes persist.
Kevin
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Thanks Kevin
I have tried to get some adjustment between 3 & 4 but without success and any success I did have just put everything else out. I am prety sure I had the plugs back in the right place but that is just the sort of problem I was looking for - great way to bring up a post of codes. Will give it a try and post the result.
Thanks
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Me again Kevin.
I have checked the connectors - all in the right place and firmly connected. Tried turning on the ignition and waiting for all lights go out and then turning off and removing the key. Tried 25 times then check the fault codes - unchanged.
I think I am going to have to strip it down again and get the photos - if nothing else to eliminate any possibility of the timing being out. Will start tonight but it may be Friday before I can get it all undone again >:(
I'll be back
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Eureka I think [smiley=thumbsup.gif].
I can't work out how to post a picture on here but I think it all rests on the cams for 3 & 4. The cam is marked 3 4. The numbers are stamped slightly to the right of the left hand timing mark 3 and is in the same place on both cams. I have mine set to the same timing mark and I think this is where I cam going wrong.
Methinks that cam 3 should be on the mark to the left of the 3 and cam 4 should be to the right of the 4.
Could someone confirm. This seems to be how it is in the Haynes manual but as usual the photos are of such poor quality it is difficult to be sure.
OTOH it cams 3 and 4 are to be on different timing marks then this would explain the problem.
Can't wait for a reply to this one.
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let me study Mr Haynes and the DVD - I'll edit the post in a few minutes to confirm
Edit: look at picture3.5b in section 2C.4.
you need the mark to the left of 3 on cam 3 and the right of 4 on cam 4
I think you have bank 4 out. fingers crossed the values have not met with pistons
try here for posting pics - I'll pm you with my email address and you can send direct to me if you want
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1177515338
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Hi Jonathan.
Eureka! [smiley=grin.gif]. At last feeling really chuffed. The job is done and running very sweetly - the roar is back.
Past mistakes apart I think I have done well. I started about 6:30 and finished about 9:50. Not bad for what in effect was a complete cam-belt change from scratch - and that includes stopping to take pictures.
It just goes to show that a mistake made early on can persist for a long time.
Happy that the valves have not been damaged - did a compression check at the weekend. 1 and 3 were about 150 - 160 and the rest about 170 - 180. A drop of oil and 1 & 3 went up to 190 so happy they are OK.
I just feel so good now that it is done
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Glad to hear its fixed ... now if you had bought the DVD first ..... :)
On a serious note ... if anyone is contemplating this for the first timeI would strongly suggest buying the DVD ... it might just save a lot of worry .. its a tiny investment compared to the cost of a replacement engine .....
(plug over ... :) )
:)
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Great news. Glad to hear everything is o.k.
Yes the DVD is invaluable: a brilliant guide
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Er, what do you guys think of this tip?
2 pairs of mole grips(cringe, i know, but hear me out) before you take the belt off and the cams fly out of position due to value spring pressure. Take a mole grip and pinch or nip the two cam wheels together at the 3 and 9 clock position, there they meat at the nearest position.
Do both banks then remove belt. Fit new belt and tensioners re tension roughly, hand crank a rev. re tension to last fraction. Etc etc. Job done.
Now, mole grips will scratch your cam wheels and will put side pressure on the cam wheel bearings, but if you got no locking kit ??? What you think?
Obviously, buying dvd and locking kit is the way to go but if your desperate.
To late to help the guy in this thread tho
.
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Er, what do you guys think of this tip?
2 pairs of mole grips(cringe, i know, but hear me out) before you take the belt off and the cams fly out of position due to value spring pressure. Take a mole grip and pinch or nip the two cam wheels together at the 3 and 9 clock position, there they meat at the nearest position.
Do both banks then remove belt. Fit new belt and tensioners re tension roughly, hand crank a rev. re tension to last fraction. Etc etc. Job done.
Now, mole grips will scratch your cam wheels and will put side pressure on the cam wheel bearings, but if you got no locking kit ??? What you think?
Obviously, buying dvd and locking kit is the way to go but if your desperate.
To late to help the guy in this thread tho
.
A recipe for disaster, the tensioners dont just tension, they have adjustment to time the cams as well.
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maybe have another read? Or maybe i have not explained it correctly. The idea is only to stop the cams flying off to their easyest position. There by completely losing your cam marks and then re timing to the wrong mark, as happened here as i understand it? You will obviously need to adjust the tensioners to give you the perfect line up but you should be no more than half a tooth out once you crank a revolution.
Its how we did my old cdx worked a treat. Honest.
Ar, sorry. I have used wrong terminology. When i say re tension i mean adjust.
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Er, what do you guys think of this tip?
2 pairs of mole grips(cringe, i know, but hear me out) before you take the belt off and the cams fly out of position due to value spring pressure. Take a mole grip and pinch or nip the two cam wheels together at the 3 and 9 clock position, there they meat at the nearest position.
Do both banks then remove belt. Fit new belt and tensioners re tension roughly, hand crank a rev. re tension to last fraction. Etc etc. Job done.
Now, mole grips will scratch your cam wheels and will put side pressure on the cam wheel bearings, but if you got no locking kit ??? What you think?
Obviously, buying dvd and locking kit is the way to go but if your desperate.
To late to help the guy in this thread tho
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A recipe for disaster, the tensioners dont just tension, they have adjustment to time the cams as well.
.. and mole grips can easily crack the sintered steel sprockets, as well as put a lot of strain on the cam journals.
It really isn't worth messing about without the proper timing kit.
Kevin
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ok ok. Let me add another tip then. NEVER use mole grips to lock your cams in place. Its a recipe for disaster and you could crack yous cam wheels. Is that a good tip? :-)
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ok ok. Let me add another tip then. NEVER use mole grips to lock your cams in place. Its a recipe for disaster and you could crack yous cam wheels. Is that a good tip? :-)
Yep. ;)
I suspect if the locking tool had been used from the start the mistake wouldn't have occurred. If you insert the locking tool between the cam sprockets before the old belt comes off and remove it only once the new belt is in place the position of the cams is maintained, which is exactly what you were suggesting with the mole wrenches, so in that respect it was a good tip. :y
Kevin
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It was my mates idea. Blame him. Still live and learn.
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I guess it could work if you packed the mole grips with lots of rubber to keep the pressure on the cam sprokets down and make sure they gripped well.
Would I do it? Would I recommend it to anyone? Absolutely no way, ever at all. cam timing would be way off and if you were using a VX belt without timing marks there is no way of making sure you are not a tooth out on the crank
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nope, it was about 2/3 of a tooth on 1 bank. Easily adjusted.
Now listen, i am not saying this is the way to go, as i said before, locking tool is a best. I did it this way koz i did not have access to a locking kit, and it worked. Not ideal, and yes your right, i would have prefered a kit. But i had no idea how to get my mits on one at the time. So come on, some credit please!
I mean put yourself in my shoes, your cam belt is due, not much cash in me sky, no trust worthy mechanic that i know of and no locking kit. Now, how would you change your belt?
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For all my preaching...
Before I knew about this forum, I changed a V6 belt kit without the tools.
I noted where the arrows were on the old idlers and got the new ones in visually the same position.
Must say the car ran fine, and gave great economy with no risk of further cambelt damage...
BUT Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't do this job without the tools. It's the only way to be 100% it's right.
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A HA! So now we know, its all coming out in the wash :-)
I should have mentioned in first post, i did not know about the forum then and probably should have stressed more caution with this method.
To all out there reading this, USE CAM LOCKING TOOLS. and get the dvd from the OOF shop, its only £3, or something silly.
Remember the 6 P,s
Perfect planning prevents piss poor performance!
Failing that use mole grips... NO! SCRATCH THAT!!
:-):-):-)
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Using mole grips - no thanks. The walls of the cams are not particularly thick but there is a fair bit of force trying to make them jump out of position so to work the grips would have to be very tight. If you are really stuck a couple of softwood pegs for each cam - slightly oversize and tapped gently into position would do a better job.
But honestly - this is not a job to do that way. It is so easy to get it wrong and then you are in a whole bundle of trouble.
A bad workman blames his tools - but a good workman starts with the right tools!
TTFN
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Er, what do you guys think of this tip?
2 pairs of mole grips(cringe, i know, but hear me out) before you take the belt off and the cams fly out of position due to value spring pressure. Take a mole grip and pinch or nip the two cam wheels together at the 3 and 9 clock position, there they meat at the nearest position.
Do both banks then remove belt. Fit new belt and tensioners re tension roughly, hand crank a rev. re tension to last fraction. Etc etc. Job done.
Now, mole grips will scratch your cam wheels and will put side pressure on the cam wheel bearings, but if you got no locking kit ??? What you think?
Obviously, buying dvd and locking kit is the way to go but if your desperate.
To late to help the guy in this thread tho
.
This was'nt done with mole grips, but same result very likey
(http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n21/iggy21_2006/JSeaman/Step389-1.jpg)
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ok guys, the thread has moved on a bit, do try to keep up. I notice, nobody has answered the,
"what would you do in my shoes?" Question. Come on, no cash, no mechanic, no locking kit. How do you change your cam belt?
However your point about the "peg" reminded me, (its over a year ago you know) we used a similar idea to stop the wheels being stressed to much when clamped, but i am not going into it as i would be deemed as promoting the whole thing. I really should thinks these things through.
So come on, answer the question if you can,bet you cant.
No cash, no mechanic, no lock kit...
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ok guys, the thread has moved on a bit, do try to keep up. I notice, nobody has answered the,
"what would you do in my shoes?" Question. Come on, no cash, no mechanic, no locking kit. How do you change your cam belt?
However your point about the "peg" reminded me, (its over a year ago you know) we used a similar idea to stop the wheels being stressed to much when clamped, but i am not going into it as i would be deemed as promoting the whole thing. I really should thinks these things through.
So come on, answer the question if you can,bet you cant.
No cash, no mechanic, no lock kit...
Hire/borrow/steal a locking kit. No other way to get it right. If done without, you'll need to redo anyway...
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ok guys, the thread has moved on a bit, do try to keep up. I notice, nobody has answered the,
"what would you do in my shoes?" Question. Come on, no cash, no mechanic, no locking kit. How do you change your cam belt?
However your point about the "peg" reminded me, (its over a year ago you know) we used a similar idea to stop the wheels being stressed to much when clamped, but i am not going into it as i would be deemed as promoting the whole thing. I really should thinks these things through.
So come on, answer the question if you can,bet you cant.
No cash, no mechanic, no lock kit...
If you can't afford to do it properly, don't do it.. the risks are far too high, and the cost of failure = a new engine
:(
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cop outs, the lot of ya. Agree totally, but i still dont see anybody answering the guestion! Come on, Ya wimps. Stop dancing round it.;-)
:-):-):-):-)
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I believe I answered ..... you do it properly or you don't do it . end of.
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come on Enty. Your on a dessert island...
You, ve got your omega a cam belt kit and basic tools, but no locking kit. What ya gonna do? And no ya cant bring your caravan. ;-)
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come on Enty. Your on a dessert island...
You, ve got your omega a cam belt kit and basic tools, but no locking kit. What ya gonna do? And no ya cant bring your caravan. ;-)
Antagonistic ain't ya?
I'd try turning the car upside down and waterproofing it to see if I could make a raft. ;D
You certainly wouldn't be able to rack up enough miles to worry about your cam-belt, nor do you have far to go before you run out of petrol anyway, so pointless argument IMHO
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come on Enty. Your on a dessert island...
You, ve got your omega a cam belt kit and basic tools, but no locking kit. What ya gonna do? And no ya cant bring your caravan. ;-)
Park up, get the local "dusky maiden" to pour me a very pleasant cocktail, relax and enjoy the sunshine .. :)
Who the hell wants to change a cam belt on a desert island ?? :)
;D ;D
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Dessert: A course of a meal, normally sweet and taken toward the latter part of the meal.
Desert: An expanse of barren land, usually made up of sand and little vegetation.
If I were on a dessert island I'd be eating it and a little worried that it were going to dissolve.
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hope not to antagonise, sorry if post is late, but i cant see the screen for tears of laughter. Nice one. Ok i'll go away now. Mrs wants to join the forum, so she can tell me dinners in the dog, bed with no desert for me !:-(
;-)
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hope not to antagonise, sorry if post is late, but i cant see the screen for tears of laughter. Nice one. Ok i'll go away now. Mrs wants to join the forum, so she can tell me dinners in the dog, bed with no desert for me !:-(
;-)
To help OhmyOmega out [ he started thread] you could drive over
here leave a deposit, take my kit to him when he has finished the job
bring it back. I'll return your deposit. Job done.
Autovaux hire the locking kit for £15.00 a week.
Have a good nights sleep or your wake up feeling like the dogs breakfast !
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Will help any owner!
He could show me how to do it properly!(and i'll be Daddys little helper.)
Not sure he'd appreciate MY input tho. I actually do not possess a pair of m. grips. I detest the bloody things with a passion, i have a (small) draw for butchers tools but nothing that evil. But thanks for tip, myn not due for another 10k tho.
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If you can't afford to do it properly, don't do it.. the risks are far too high, and the cost of failure = a new engine
:(
Absolutely. And if you can't afford to do it properly, it would be no problem because presumably you wouldn't be able to afford tanks of petrol at 75 quid a go to put any more miles on the existing cam belt. ;)
I have a locking kit not too far from you you'd be welcome to borrow when the 10K is up, BTW.
Kevin
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Coo - see what happens when you miss wathcing for a day or two.
For me the cam belt problem and the EM codes have all gone. Car running very nicely now.
Now - if no timing kit.
I think I would need the spanners (I could use a pair of gips instead of a 30mm spanner), screwdriver, torx socekets and std or multidrive socket set.
The most important things is having successfully done it before so you really know what it should be like.
Locking the cams can be achieved with a variety of tools. I found that 5mm allan key worked quite well and the earlier suggestion of a woodern peg does the job.
Some bits of wood and a bit of kill whittling should make it possible to device a gauge before taking the old belt off. Not too difficult I think. Alernatively a steel rule to measure the distance between the cam marks and a fixed point on the engine. TDC on the cranshaft can be got by eye against the notch on the casing at the bottom of the engine though this does mean getting under the car. It should be possible to lock the crank using a 16mm socket and extension bar and a pair of mole grips although in practice you can do this without locking the crank - it just takes longer and you are likley to end up have to do it more than once.
Provided that the cams come back to mark at
TDC twice in a row you should be OK.
So I reckon if could be done, quite accuratley too, without the kit. But - you do need the experience.
So - anyone feeling lucky. In all the excitment I can't remember which mark to use for cams 3 & 4.
TTFN
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I hope you have a loaded wallet ;)
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It's keeping it that way that is the problem! ;)