Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: theolodian on 25 October 2007, 21:33:39
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New laptop, not cheap, try to print boarding passes, doesn't work even with Vista drivers from manufacturer, now won't let us print boarding passes from another computer because you're only allowed 2 tries, POS.
Try to copy files off onto USB stick, doesn't work.
Useless brick. >:(
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I'm dreading HAVING to upgrade, as we all surely will.
And what about the likes of schools? How will that work when they're all supposed to be able to network, some on XP, some on Vista :-/
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I'm dreading HAVING to upgrade, as we all surely will.
And what about the likes of schools? How will that work when they're all supposed to be able to network, some on XP, some on Vista :-/
I thought they networked together OK? My issues have been USB drivers, lots of USB drivers.
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I'm dreading HAVING to upgrade, as we all surely will.
And what about the likes of schools? How will that work when they're all supposed to be able to network, some on XP, some on Vista :-/
I thought they networked together OK? My issues have been USB drivers, lots of USB drivers.
Yeah. Sure, Theo. I'd have thought USB drivers would be OK too. That's what they tell you, innit?
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simple solution to this.................
MAC :y
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I'm starting to like the look of MACs. I wish I had the confidence to just go out and buy one. :(
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I'm dreading HAVING to upgrade, as we all surely will.
And what about the likes of schools? How will that work when they're all supposed to be able to network, some on XP, some on Vista :-/
I thought they networked together OK? My issues have been USB drivers, lots of USB drivers.
Yeah. Sure, Theo. I'd have thought USB drivers would be OK too. That's what they tell you, innit?
Well no, because the drivers aren't Microsoft. Microsoft is incredibly blind to the fact that although most people use Microsoft they also use a lot of devices and programs from other companies so when they do a change that causes incompatability issues on a massive scale and then force you to buy Vista instead of XP they make computers running Microsoft severely handicapped. Funny, Macs now do everything and Microsoft has the restrictions that Macs used to have. :-?
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I'm starting to like the look of MACs. I wish I had the confidence to just go out and buy one. :(
What are you worried about?
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I'm dreading HAVING to upgrade, as we all surely will.
And what about the likes of schools? How will that work when they're all supposed to be able to network, some on XP, some on Vista :-/
I thought they networked together OK? My issues have been USB drivers, lots of USB drivers.
Yeah. Sure, Theo. I'd have thought USB drivers would be OK too. That's what they tell you, innit?
Well no, because the drivers aren't Microsoft. Microsoft is incredibly blind to the fact that although most people use Microsoft they also use a lot of devices and programs from other companies so when they do a change that causes incompatability issues on a massive scale and then force you to buy Vista instead of XP they make computers running Microsoft severely handicapped. Funny, Macs now do everything and Microsoft has the restrictions that Macs used to have. :-?
That's two converts Jay
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I'm starting to like the look of MACs. I wish I had the confidence to just go out and buy one. :(
What are you worried about?
I'm just not that good with computers Theo. I'll have to get somone to go through the pros and cons, idiot style.
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I'm dreading HAVING to upgrade, as we all surely will.
And what about the likes of schools? How will that work when they're all supposed to be able to network, some on XP, some on Vista :-/
I thought they networked together OK? My issues have been USB drivers, lots of USB drivers.
Yeah. Sure, Theo. I'd have thought USB drivers would be OK too. That's what they tell you, innit?
Well no, because the drivers aren't Microsoft. Microsoft is incredibly blind to the fact that although most people use Microsoft they also use a lot of devices and programs from other companies so when they do a change that causes incompatability issues on a massive scale and then force you to buy Vista instead of XP they make computers running Microsoft severely handicapped. Funny, Macs now do everything and Microsoft has the restrictions that Macs used to have. :-?
That's two converts Jay
I've had an Intel Mac Mini for almost 18 months. It works quite well. Pain to reboot to do Windows stuff, but still it does it in one computer. From tomorrow Macs will work much more like Microsoft and be easier to convert over to using. That, FF3, and Open Office and I might not need to reboot into XP very often! :y
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I'm starting to like the look of MACs. I wish I had the confidence to just go out and buy one. :(
What are you worried about?
I'm just not that good with computers Theo. I'll have to get somone to go through the pros and cons, idiot style.
Macs are specifically for people that aren't computer geeks. Watch this, although it is a bit boring.
http://www.apple.com/macosx/guidedtour/
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i have been running vista ultimate from when it first came out. Never had a problem!
Runs much better than xp imo and yeah its memory hungry but just add an extra 1gb over what you would run xp on and thats it.
Macs are good , just not as software ready as windows.
Matt
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I'm starting to like the look of MACs. I wish I had the confidence to just go out and buy one. :(
What are you worried about?
I'm just not that good with computers Theo. I'll have to get somone to go through the pros and cons, idiot style.
Macs are specifically for people that aren't computer geeks. Watch this, although it is a bit boring.
http://www.apple.com/macosx/guidedtour/
Thanx Theo. That looks like it might take a while. I'll have a good look later. :y
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i have been running vista ultimate from when it first came out. Never had a problem!
Runs much better than xp imo and yeah its memory hungry but just add an extra 1gb over what you would run xp on and thats it.
Macs are good , just not as software ready as windows.
Matt
Now you see, that goes straight over my head :(
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Windows has never beem any diffrent, they have to release it to get it to work proparly.
Mac's are modified unix based
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i have been running vista ultimate from when it first came out. Never had a problem!
Runs much better than xp imo and yeah its memory hungry but just add an extra 1gb over what you would run xp on and thats it.
Macs are good , just not as software ready as windows.
Matt
I bet as much software runs on Macs as Vista. The distinct advantage of Macs is that you can run OSX, Linux, XP, and Vista all on the same machine so if something works in one but not the other then all you have to do is reboot (not even that in some cases). This new Dell 13" laptop will only run Vista . . .
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i'm not computer genius and i aqdapted to the Mac within hours :)
Technically they are brilliant, they look the part and function soooooooo much better than windows, although i have bought parallels and installed XP as SAGE will not run on Mac >:(
With mac it is all plug and play, no drivers, no messing it just does it, i have the intel mini mac and it knocks the spots off a higher spec windows machine, and it quieter, faster and boots up in no time
Slowly i am binning my windows stuff and moving to Mac, although my phone may be the last to change
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Windows has never beem any diffrent, they have to release it to get it to work proparly.
Mac's are modified unix based
If you could still get XP on most new computers then I wouldn't be so bothered.
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i have been running vista ultimate from when it first came out. Never had a problem!
Runs much better than xp imo and yeah its memory hungry but just add an extra 1gb over what you would run xp on and thats it.
Macs are good , just not as software ready as windows.
Matt
Now you see, that goes straight over my head :(
Vista needs a lot more from the computer, especially RAM. This is mainly due to trying to protect DVD's and other complete BS, despite the fact that DRM is going the way of the Do Do - at least for music. MS took so long to get Vista out that the core technology is out of step with the market.
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Another mac owner over here, I have three of them! I think they are great, I fix PC's for a living, and I dont want to do it when I get home, the macs just work and are so nice to use.
Looking forward to getting OS 10.5 Leopard tomorrow, I very much doubt there will be any compatibility issues with this new operating system like there have been and still are with that shambles of an operating system that is called Vista.
To say I dislike Vista is an understatement. Sorry to anyone reading this who likes it, there are just to many poor attempts of copying OSX useful features (ie. Gadgets) for my liking.
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I love mac's. They do run really good and are definitely visually better. A pc can run the same a mac can as. I know of a few people who have run osx on a pc aswell as linux and windows. It was unheard of when macs used the powerpc architecture but now it uses x86 intel its quite easy.
I think macs are catching up with software , but there is alot of software that i use that macs dont do at the moment so if i did convert over to a mac i would have to use bootcamp to run vista aswell.
Personally i think a time will come when microsoft and apple merge (yes ill be shot down on this but its my opinion and im sticking to it ;))
Miccrosoft definitely copied things fromosx to make vista what it is now (gadgets etc)
Matt
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It also depends what you use it for. I run my business from my pc so converting over to a mac would be a huge thing for me. Someone who just surfs the internet aint gonna care about the differences between safari and ie7
Matt
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i'm not computer genius and i aqdapted to the Mac within hours :)
Technically they are brilliant, they look the part and function soooooooo much better than windows, although i have bought parallels and installed XP as SAGE will not run on Mac >:(
With mac it is all plug and play, no drivers, no messing it just does it, i have the intel mini mac and it knocks the spots off a higher spec windows machine, and it quieter, faster and boots up in no time
Slowly i am binning my windows stuff and moving to Mac, although my phone may be the last to change
I will say that Safari is pretty bad, and you can't use some of the more esoteric USB stuff from Parallels (VM's don't give good timing control over hardware).
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Safari is basic to say the least.
I think the greatness of macs is to use them for music
Matt
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Another mac owner over here, I have three of them! I think they are great, I fix PC's for a living, and I dont want to do it when I get home, the macs just work and are so nice to use.
Looking forward to getting OS 10.5 Leopard tomorrow, I very much doubt there will be any compatibility issues with this new operating system like there have been and still are with that shambles of an operating system that is called Vista.
To say I dislike Vista is an understatement. Sorry to anyone reading this who likes it, there are just to many poor attempts of copying OSX useful features (ie. Gadgets) for my liking.
Yes, the good things about Vista are where they copy the Mac. The real crime though is that it took until Windows 95 for MS to match the first Macs that were released in 1984. Do the math, it's pathetic beyond words.
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Safari is basic to say the least.
I think the greatness of macs is to use them for music
Matt
Safari crashes on me every week or so.
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IMO the perfect computer would have the mac platform, the mac look, the windows compatibility with software, the hacking/cracking of windows, the stability of osx or linux and the cheapness of a pc and the speed of a quadcore core 2 due
Matt
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I love mac's. They do run really good and are definitely visually better. A pc can run the same a mac can as. I know of a few people who have run osx on a pc aswell as linux and windows. It was unheard of when macs used the powerpc architecture but now it uses x86 intel its quite easy.
I think macs are catching up with software , but there is alot of software that i use that macs dont do at the moment so if i did convert over to a mac i would have to use bootcamp to run vista aswell.
Personally i think a time will come when microsoft and apple merge (yes ill be shot down on this but its my opinion and im sticking to it ;))
Miccrosoft definitely copied things fromosx to make vista what it is now (gadgets etc)
Matt
Where do you think windows came from. It certainly was not bill gates or ms. It was as a result of Jobs making a huge blunder, in asking a mr gates to do some coding for apple. having seen the coding windows was born. Gates having done exact;y the same with dos before hand.
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I love mac's. They do run really good and are definitely visually better. A pc can run the same a mac can as. I know of a few people who have run osx on a pc aswell as linux and windows. It was unheard of when macs used the powerpc architecture but now it uses x86 intel its quite easy.
I think macs are catching up with software , but there is alot of software that i use that macs dont do at the moment so if i did convert over to a mac i would have to use bootcamp to run vista aswell.
Personally i think a time will come when microsoft and apple merge (yes ill be shot down on this but its my opinion and im sticking to it ;))
Miccrosoft definitely copied things fromosx to make vista what it is now (gadgets etc)
Matt
Where do you think windows came from. It certainly was not bill gates or ms. It was as a result of Jobs making a huge blunder, in asking a mr gates to do some coding for apple. having seen the coding windows was born. Gates having done exact;y the same with dos before hand.
Well, its not like Apple invented the concept. What's so frustrating is that for how good MS is a maintaining a monopoly they can't be better/quicker at copying. Also they create a ton of stuff that isn't that great in order to compete with everybody, instead of getting the basic mass market stuff right. We'll see if the EU ruling makes a difference, I doubt it.
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I haven't used Vista much but when I did the performance was OK, full Aero Glass on a Core2Duo with 2 gig RAM. It did have issues with a few pieces of software I tried to use on it.
Haven't used it for a while as I've long since converted to Mac OS X, but I booted into Vista a few days ago to be helpfully informed that it has de-activated itself and I can't log in until I reactivate. Well thanks Microsoft, maybe I'd be better off getting a bloody pirate copy rather than use a legitimate one that de-activates for no reason at all (no hardware changes)... on second thoughts I think I'll just remove the damn thing.
I have an XP Pro VMWare machine for running the odd Windows app that I need, but I find that's pretty rare since I've found suitable OS X substitutes for most of the stuff I need, including a few open source UNIX apps that I can compile and run on Apple's X11 interface.
Oh and Amarok is a fantastic music player, you can get that for just about every current OS except Windows! http://amarok.kde.org
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Vista can run well given the right amount of hardware.
I installed it for a laugh on our OOF server before I put W2k3 on it, and it flew. From the end of the BIOS POST test to being able to use, less than 10s - with all the usual slowing down software (office and AV) installed.
My MCE runs Vista, had to upgrade to 2G from 1G RAM, which has improved matters, but still sluggish at times (3.2G P4)
I like Macs, always have, until they went unix based - I have a distrust of the Linux (and similar BSD) kernel. Too many years working with it has proven its instability to me. And the whole X11 thing is an overgrown, over engineered piece of bloatware.
Vista's biggest issue is with the 3rd party software companies being too slow/stupid to deal with the OS changes, same as when XP came out.
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Vista can run well given the right amount of hardware.
I installed it for a laugh on our OOF server before I put W2k3 on it, and it flew. From the end of the BIOS POST test to being able to use, less than 10s - with all the usual slowing down software (office and AV) installed.
My MCE runs Vista, had to upgrade to 2G from 1G RAM, which has improved matters, but still sluggish at times (3.2G P4)
I like Macs, always have, until they went unix based - I have a distrust of the Linux (and similar BSD) kernel. Too many years working with it has proven its instability to me. And the whole X11 thing is an overgrown, over engineered piece of bloatware.
Vista's biggest issue is with the 3rd party software companies being too slow/stupid to deal with the OS changes, same as when XP came out.
Exactly! , XP didnt run as good as it does now when that first came out either. But you have to update. Everybody was saying against XP (naaa stick with 2000/98 etc) , until the benefits of having the latest os was apparant.
Matt
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Vista can run well given the right amount of hardware.
I installed it for a laugh on our OOF server before I put W2k3 on it, and it flew. From the end of the BIOS POST test to being able to use, less than 10s - with all the usual slowing down software (office and AV) installed.
My MCE runs Vista, had to upgrade to 2G from 1G RAM, which has improved matters, but still sluggish at times (3.2G P4)
It runs OK on my system with 2G RAM, but seeing that it has the ability to spontaneously de-activate itself is causing me far more concern. Yet another case of Microsoft (and countless others) making life difficult for legitimate users while those using cracked pirate copies have no such issues >:(. It reminds me of when music labels started putting that "anti-ripping" stuff onto CDs to stop people putting music they had paid for onto an MP3 player -- of course the pirate copies had no such limitations so you were actually getting a better product by getting a counterfeit from a local car boot sale or whatever :(
I like Macs, always have, until they went unix based - I have a distrust of the Linux (and similar BSD) kernel. Too many years working with it has proven its instability to me. And the whole X11 thing is an overgrown, over engineered piece of bloatware.
OS X is light years ahead of Classic (OS 9 and older), it's akin to going from Win98 to Win2K. And the BSD kernel has proven to be stable over many years in many environments, so for desktop use I don't think stability is the least bit of an issue. I wouldn't say it's any better than the NT kernel in that respect, they're both pretty solid. X11 isn't part of Mac OS per-se, it simply includes an (optional) X11 server so you can run UNIX apps that aren't available natively for OS X (the Aqua interface). It is a bit of a kludge as X11 apps don't really fit in with the MacOS interface (things like they have their own menu bar), but it allows me to run programs like Amarok that are currently not available for Mac (nor Windows for that matter). Version 2 of Amarok is planned to be released for Mac and Windows though so that's one program I'll be able to run natively sometime soon.
I've thought about trying a Mac for ages, and it wasn't so long ago I gave into the temptation. I can't say I regret it one bit. I still use WinXP almost every weekday at uni, but at home I very seldom boot into Windows, and that's going to become even less frequent after my de-activation issue with Vista. It's not for everyone but if you're fed up with Windows I recommend giving it a shot if you have the opportunity.
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I don't have Visa, so I can't comment ::)
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I don't have Visa, so I can't comment ::)
Apologies should have read don't have Vista ;D
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Exactly! , XP didnt run as good as it does now when that first came out either. But you have to update. Everybody was saying against XP (naaa stick with 2000/98 etc) , until the benefits of having the latest os was apparant.
Matt
The difference this time is that there's no compelling reason to upgrade for home users. When XP came out most of them were on Win98 or (god forbid) Windows Millennium, as Win2k was primarily an enterprise product. So WinXP brought some real, major, advantages to those users -- namely memory protection, multi user support and all the other benefits of the NT product line. It was a slightly painful transition but the rewards were there in that your system wouldn't spontaneously blue screen because of one rogue app, the system wouldn't munge itself to the point it needed reinstalled every 6 months etc.
Vista offers nowhere near the benefits over XP for home users, and corporate users won't be switching en-masse for some time as corporate IT policy tends to move at a snails pace. Yes it will become the default desktop over time due to Microsoft's pervasive OEM agreements, but I'm seeing almost zero enthusiasm for it, and many people are actively trying to avoid it.
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I don't have Visa, so I can't comment ::)
Apologies should have read don't have Vista ;D
;D Thought you were about to sing the praises of Mastercard there!
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but seeing that it has the ability to spontaneously de-activate itself is causing me far more concern. Yet another case of Microsoft (and countless others) making life difficult for legitimate users while those using cracked pirate copies have no such issues >:(. It reminds me of when music labels started putting that "anti-ripping" stuff onto CDs to stop people putting music they had paid for onto an MP3 player -- of course the pirate copies had no such limitations so you were actually getting a better product by getting a counterfeit from a local car boot sale or whatever :(
That fault was fixed ages ago.
In fairness to MS, they have to do something to deter the casual pirate. And they do a reasonable job in stopping the good pirates. Activation is fairly non intrusive for most users who are internet connected, and simple enough for those that aren't.
OS X is light years ahead of Classic (OS 9 and older), it's akin to going from Win98 to Win2K. And the BSD kernel has proven to be stable over many years in many environments, so for desktop use I don't think stability is the least bit of an issue. I wouldn't say it's any better than the NT kernel in that respect, they're both pretty solid. X11 isn't part of Mac OS per-se, it simply includes an (optional) X11 server so you can run UNIX apps that aren't available natively for OS X (the Aqua interface). It is a bit of a kludge as X11 apps don't really fit in with the MacOS interface (things like they have their own menu bar), but it allows me to run programs like Amarok that are currently not available for Mac (nor Windows for that matter).
Thats part of my point - OSX (and Linux/BSD) is disjointed.
Thats why I would always recommend Windows as desktop for most people...
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Thats why I would always recommend Windows as desktop for most people...
I thought it was ready for that, and told SWMBO that she'd be fine on Vista, but this brings me back to my original point. We now have to find which printers are known to work with Vista and buy one, same with USB memory sticks. Ours are less than a year old, but just because you can't buy most laptops with XP any more we have to waste money and fill landfills with perfectly good printers, etc. Maybe they should have covered MS wholesale filling tips in the RoHS and WEEE directives? ::)
I think that Vista will be fine in a year or so when other companies catch up, but in the meanwhile I want the option of XP.
I will be upgrading to Leopard when I go home at Xmas. Hopefully OpenOrifice works on that or will be available soon.
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I don't have Visa, so I can't comment ::)
Apologies should have read don't have Vista ;D
We take American Express Daz.... :-*
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Big fan of XP and 98 personally, however I have Vista on my Tosh... I did find a problem at one point, which was USB / Com port adaptor drivers, I got in touch with MS, they sorted it in 2 days with a download... Credit where due... other than that they I know little about these things, other than building my own PC etc.. Not exactly rocket science..
DC
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but seeing that it has the ability to spontaneously de-activate itself is causing me far more concern. Yet another case of Microsoft (and countless others) making life difficult for legitimate users while those using cracked pirate copies have no such issues >:(. It reminds me of when music labels started putting that "anti-ripping" stuff onto CDs to stop people putting music they had paid for onto an MP3 player -- of course the pirate copies had no such limitations so you were actually getting a better product by getting a counterfeit from a local car boot sale or whatever :(
That fault was fixed ages ago.
In fairness to MS, they have to do something to deter the casual pirate. And they do a reasonable job in stopping the good pirates. Activation is fairly non intrusive for most users who are internet connected, and simple enough for those that aren't.
How long ago is ages? Because it happened to me a week ago. Admittedly I haven't used the Vista install for a while so I may have missed some updates in that time, but that's no excuse. I haven't bothered trying to fix it because I have several other operating systems that work perfectly well and don't shut me out on a whim. I may just remove Vista rather than faff around trying to re-activate it.
The only thing activation does is prevent "accidental" piracy -- where someone installs something using an invalid licence or similar. Anyone who actually intends to pirate it will just download a crack (or more likely will download a complete ISO for the installer that is already cracked).
OS X is light years ahead of Classic (OS 9 and older), it's akin to going from Win98 to Win2K. And the BSD kernel has proven to be stable over many years in many environments, so for desktop use I don't think stability is the least bit of an issue. I wouldn't say it's any better than the NT kernel in that respect, they're both pretty solid. X11 isn't part of Mac OS per-se, it simply includes an (optional) X11 server so you can run UNIX apps that aren't available natively for OS X (the Aqua interface). It is a bit of a kludge as X11 apps don't really fit in with the MacOS interface (things like they have their own menu bar), but it allows me to run programs like Amarok that are currently not available for Mac (nor Windows for that matter).
Thats part of my point - OSX (and Linux/BSD) is disjointed.
Thats why I would always recommend Windows as desktop for most people...
I don't find it disjointed at all. unless you actually delve into the UNIX side of things using the terminal and installing X11 apps, which 99% of casual users will never do. It "just works" in almost all cases. Oh and the installer has no activation, no "genuine (dis)advantage" and other crap like that, in fact you don't even need a CD key. Fair enough Apple has much less of an exposure to piracy due to the closed hardware platform, but there is absolutely nothing to stop a Mac owner who is running Tiger (OS X 10.4) or even Panther (OS X 10.3) from borrowing a copy of Leopard and installing it without paying for a licence. But the way I see it, if someone wants to do that they will work out a way to do it, CD key or not. I am running Tiger at the moment, but I may pop over to my local Apple store (20 seconds walk from my house!) to have a look at Leopard. It costs £85 retail (there's probably a 15% student discount available, I haven't checked yet) or you can get a family pack licence (for up to 5 Macs in the same house) for £129. Pretty good value IMO.
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Paul M - it was in the early summer that activation thing was fixed.
WPA/WGA deter more than accidental copying. Yes, you or I could (temporarily) work round it, but the majority of people couldn't. It also stops the small PC shops putting copies on rather than proper licenced one (a massive problem before XP SP1). They don't dare now knowing the next set of updates will break it.
Yes, like CSS on DVD, or the already part broken AACS used on Blu Ray, it won't stop people who know what they are doing, will will stop the majority of the population.
Apple make their money on hardware. As its now possible to mostly run OSX on non mac hardware, its only a matter of time before Apple start implementing similar - too many people will illegally use it if its easy enough, even at the low price. The broadband revolution has given the 'techie' types a mentally that they shouldn't have to pay for anything.
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Paul M - it was in the early summer that activation thing was fixed.
Interesting that mine has just broken then. I'm going to boot into it now and try to reactivate over the net. If that doesn't work I'm wiping it, because frankly I'm not paying to call MS for the priviledge of activating a legal system that spontaneously de-activated -- how long will it be before it happens again?
WPA/WGA deter more than accidental copying. Yes, you or I could (temporarily) work round it, but the majority of people couldn't. It also stops the small PC shops putting copies on rather than proper licenced one (a massive problem before XP SP1). They don't dare now knowing the next set of updates will break it.
Yes, like CSS on DVD, or the already part broken AACS used on Blu Ray, it won't stop people who know what they are doing, will will stop the majority of the population.
But for most of these issues it only takes one person to break it, and the copies are all restriction free. This creates the crazy scenario where you can go down a market stall and spend £3 on a dodgy DVD that is otherwise identical to the £15 original, but has no artificial restrictions. Same goes for pirate games with their region protection on consoles or "no CD" cracks on PCs -- the copyright holders are actually driving potential customers, who are willing to pay for the product, to illegal sources so that they can get a better version without the artificial restrictions. And to be quite honest although I don't condone it, I have absolutely no sympathy for them. DRM is about exerting control beyond what fair use allows, not preventing copyright infringement.
Apple make their money on hardware. As its now possible to mostly run OSX on non mac hardware, its only a matter of time before Apple start implementing similar - too many people will illegally use it if its easy enough, even at the low price. The broadband revolution has given the 'techie' types a mentally that they shouldn't have to pay for anything.
This has gone on since long before the broadband revolution, that has just made it easier. I remember when I was a kid and one of my mate's dad brought home the Windows for Workgroups 3.11 install disks from his work to put onto the home PC. Then it evolved to CD-ROMs for PCs and Playstations, people I knew in school would go to dodgy Sunday markets to buy copied CDs from shifty looking guys. I never owned a Playstation (or a PC back then) so I don't know if region locking was an issue but I wouldn't be surprised -- can't get the game you want because it's import only and won't work on your machine? Easy just buy a pirate version it works worldwide :-/
I think a lot of people are more than willing to pay for copyrighted works if the price is reasonable and they are offered reasonable fair use rights. The latter is where DRM and the like falls over, I simply refuse to buy (or even accept for free in promotions like Continental offered iTunes downloads when I booked flights) any DRM'd music as it hugely infringes on the fair use rights you get when you buy a CD. I'm seeing a similar issue with Windows these days when Microsoft believe it's OK to regularly check your PC just to make sure you haven't switched your licensed copy of Windows for an illegal one. "If you're not doing anything wrong you've got nothing to worry about" is the usual argument -- so on that point it should be OK for MI5 to install security cameras in everyone's house to make sure you're not assembling bombs or whatever... Step too far IMO.
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No CD patches are great why the hell should I have to insert the disc when the game is already installed.
My first PC drive was a 2nd gen DVD burner so not cheap
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How interesting.... it now claims my product key is invalid (after I've been using it for about 6 months) and that "You may be a victim of software counterfeiting". A bit rich considering this copy came from the Microsoft Developer Network, I wonder if they realise they're counterfeiting their own products? >:(
So I am currently running in reduced functionality mode, until it kicks me out, with a helpful "This copy of Windows is not Genuine" shown on the bottom right of my 2nd display (the rest of the display is black). Oh well.... I'll need to contact my MSDN administrator to find out what's going on, but for the forseeable future I think I'll be running back to my Mac -- it "just works".
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Well I have banned WGA from both my home and my work PCs
It works fine without it and I see no need for it on my machine, it could get a false reading and that is ALL the reason I need to ban it
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No CD patches are great why the hell should I have to insert the disc when the game is already installed.
It's a perfect example of how the counterfeit product is better than the original. If these companies want people to buy their products then maybe they should put a bit less effort into pissing their customers off.
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Well I have banned WGA from both my home and my work PCs
It works fine without it and I see no need for it on my machine, it could get a false reading and that is ALL the reason I need to ban it
I do that with my XP machines (which had the side benefit of it not offering to install IE7, although that no longer applies) but I'm not sure it's possible with Vista. This thing is so filled to the brim with DRM crap that I very much doubt it >:(
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Paul M - Forgetting games for a moment (which do use an awful protection mechanism, as its intrusive), Windows and DVDs etc use a (almost) seemless system. The Protection/DRM does not get in the way of legal use (forgetting the WPA glitch with Vista that only shows up under certain sequence of events). DRM is not evil, as suggested on virtually every Linux site, but necessary. It needs to be seemless though (as like region coding and CSS on DVD) to be effective...
It is my experience, no matter on the cost, certain types of people will refuse to pay for electronic software/video/music, even if very, very cheap. This can be seem if you linger around the DVD section in the local library - you'll quite often here people say they won't hire for £2.50, but download it instead.
I agree this has gone on before broadband - many from my generation will remember using tape to tape machines to copy computer games which came on cassettes back then. Broadband has made this worse (back then, somebody within your group had to buy the original - internet has made this not necessary), and has allowed p2p distribution.
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Paul M - Forgetting games for a moment (which do use an awful protection mechanism, as its intrusive), Windows and DVDs etc use a (almost) seemless system. The Protection/DRM does not get in the way of legal use (forgetting the WPA glitch with Vista that only shows up under certain sequence of events). DRM is not evil, as suggested on virtually every Linux site, but necessary. It needs to be seemless though (as like region coding and CSS on DVD) to be effective...
It's not seamless from where I'm sitting, facing a "This copy of Windows is not genuine" screen with nothing more than crappy IE7 to keep me company >:(
DRM on music is a total PITA that restricts my fair usage of it. Case in point -- I store my music (in lossless FLAC format) on a file server in my house so I can listen to it either in my bedroom or in the living room. If I want to put it onto a portable player I have a script to transcode the desired albums into MP3 format, and I load them on. If I'm short on space I can transcode them from the FLAC files again to a lower bitrate. With DRM I'd have to buy 3 copies of the same music, and yet another copy if I decide I'd rather have the music in AAC to save space on my portable player. Why bother when I can just go download a DRM-free copy at no cost? Yes I'd be infringing copyright by doing so, but it eliminates all the DRM so is a much better solution. I'm not surprised if people chose to download an illegal copy even if they're perfectly willing to pay for a good quality, unencumbered legal download. Becuase that's generally what you get when you buy a CD, and downloads are barely cheaper (if at all) even though distribution costs are much lower.
It is my experience, no matter on the cost, certain types of people will refuse to pay for electronic software/video/music, even if very, very cheap. This can be seem if you linger around the DVD section in the local library - you'll quite often here people say they won't hire for £2.50, but download it instead.
Agreed, and these people are a lost cause anyway. In the extremely unlikely event of 100% effective access controls, these people will more than likely just do without rather than pay. So from a business perspective you're gaining nothing by locking them out, while at the same time pissing off legitimate customers who *are* prepared to pay. OK you can talk about the moral gains of preventing people not entitled to it getting your content, but that doesn't make you money.
I agree this has gone on before broadband - many from my generation will remember using tape to tape machines to copy computer games which came on cassettes back then. Broadband has made this worse (back then, somebody within your group had to buy the original - internet has made this not necessary), and has allowed p2p distribution.
Maybe we should go back to punch cards, can't be so easy to mass duplicate those ;D
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The music one is difficult to do. If you leave it unprotected, very few people will buy it (in these days of solid state portable players, how do you convinced people to pay for stuff that can easily be obtained for free?). I appreciate that some people will possibly never buy, but the majority will buy if its not easily available for free.
So, how do copyright owners protect their IP in this digital age?
I've yet to see a working business model that does allow commercial companies to give their products away (which is what, in effect, you are doing if you do not protect it).
My view is it shouldn't inconvenience users, but in some cases (music being the big one) this isn't possible until someone comes up with a universal format with built in DRM. Apple nearly managed it with iPod, although I think Apple's implementation is flawed.
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The music one is difficult to do. If you leave it unprotected, very few people will buy it (in these days of solid state portable players, how do you convinced people to pay for stuff that can easily be obtained for free?). I appreciate that some people will possibly never buy, but the majority will buy if its not easily available for free.
So, how do copyright owners protect their IP in this digital age?
I've yet to see a working business model that does allow commercial companies to give their products away (which is what, in effect, you are doing if you do not protect it).
My view is it shouldn't inconvenience users, but in some cases (music being the big one) this isn't possible until someone comes up with a universal format with built in DRM. Apple nearly managed it with iPod, although I think Apple's implementation is flawed.
Apple is dropping DRM from iTunes downloads. Not enabled now if you buy the whole album online. Others are going that way, including artists like Prince and Madonna. They are concentrating on revenues from concerts and merchandising. Attitudes are quickly getting more realistic, at least for some.
As for software, I'll be trying out Open Orifice soon. MS defo isn't getting any more of my money on that one.
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The music one is difficult to do. If you leave it unprotected, very few people will buy it (in these days of solid state portable players, how do you convinced people to pay for stuff that can easily be obtained for free?). I appreciate that some people will possibly never buy, but the majority will buy if its not easily available for free.
So, how do copyright owners protect their IP in this digital age?
I've yet to see a working business model that does allow commercial companies to give their products away (which is what, in effect, you are doing if you do not protect it).
My view is it shouldn't inconvenience users, but in some cases (music being the big one) this isn't possible until someone comes up with a universal format with built in DRM. Apple nearly managed it with iPod, although I think Apple's implementation is flawed.
Apple is dropping DRM from iTunes downloads. Not enabled now if you buy the whole album online. Others are going that way, including artists like Prince and Madonna. They are concentrating on revenues from concerts and merchandising. Attitudes are quickly getting more realistic, at least for some.
As for software, I'll be trying out Open Orifice soon. MS defo isn't getting any more of my money on that one.
The big artists who have already made their fortune can afford to give away music, as thye will always pack out a large venue. Many bands can't. Though I suspect their generousity is only a temporary stunt, though I applaud their experiment, despite thinking its the wrong direction.
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No CD patches are great why the hell should I have to insert the disc when the game is already installed.
It's a perfect example of how the counterfeit product is better than the original. If these companies want people to buy their products then maybe they should put a bit less effort into pissing their customers off.
Legit games, with naughty patches :y
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No CD patches are great why the hell should I have to insert the disc when the game is already installed.
It's a perfect example of how the counterfeit product is better than the original. If these companies want people to buy their products then maybe they should put a bit less effort into pissing their customers off.
Legit games, with naughty patches :y
Trouble is, the naughty patches mean a significant majority won't buy the games legit...
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Record labels - in general a bunch of tossers!
They expect us to buy manufactured pap but don't sign the deals for good bands.
I used to know two REALLY GOOD NWOBHM bands and they both tried for years to get a deal and both were excellent - one even has a sort of tribute band :o :-?
Yet at the same time I think about 5 or 6 or so got a decent deal and most bands went down the self financed single and taped off radio route.
One of the singles I had a few of I sold one for over £20.
Got a free album of the same band off the producers of it though - I am mentioned on the insert and my photos were used :y
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No CD patches are great why the hell should I have to insert the disc when the game is already installed.
It's a perfect example of how the counterfeit product is better than the original. If these companies want people to buy their products then maybe they should put a bit less effort into pissing their customers off.
Legit games, with naughty patches :y
Trouble is, the naughty patches mean a significant majority won't buy the games legit...
Not when it is a patch and you still need the install - I had to do three or four unoffical patches as well
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Paul M - it was in the early summer that activation thing was fixed.
WPA/WGA deter more than accidental copying. Yes, you or I could (temporarily) work round it, but the majority of people couldn't. It also stops the small PC shops putting copies on rather than proper licenced one (a massive problem before XP SP1). They don't dare now knowing the next set of updates will break it.
Yes, like CSS on DVD, or the already part broken AACS used on Blu Ray, it won't stop people who know what they are doing, will will stop the majority of the population.
Apple make their money on hardware. As its now possible to mostly run OSX on non mac hardware, its only a matter of time before Apple start implementing similar - too many people will illegally use it if its easy enough, even at the low price. The broadband revolution has given the 'techie' types a mentally that they shouldn't have to pay for anything.
That was so even before broadband. Microsoft emplyees have always made thier software available before MS can get it to the end of the production line. The competition is how fast they can get it out, was it XP they had to pull from production when they discovered that Tywan was listed before China, caused a lot of embarresment.
Isnt the back bone of the web unix based, very very raerly re-booted, that would be a novelty for windows users.
No matter how good the protection manufacturers use, there are better coders out there than they employ or will ever employ. I have never seen a failure to date.
A lot of coders disagree with MS and support the open licence, which is why MS does everything it can to throw a spanner in the works. local and government depts being advised to use open source rather than MS products, think of the revenue it would loose. But of course having the so-called IT people to use it is the biggest problem to it's use.
I look at it no diffrent to OOF a collection of people with the same interest. Coders are no different they live & breath coding, they reverse engineer all windows products and will show you where DOS still plays a part they know the product better than MS. It is truly amazing to see what a rushian can do with even a 282 absolutly truly unbelivable.
And no I am not a coder but still prefer the command line.
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That was so even before broadband. Microsoft emplyees have always made thier software available before MS can get it to the end of the production line. The competition is how fast they can get it out, was it XP they had to pull from production when they discovered that Tywan was listed before China, caused a lot of embarresment.
Isnt the back bone of the web unix based, very very raerly re-booted, that would be a novelty for windows users.
No matter how good the protection manufacturers use, there are better coders out there than they employ or will ever employ. I have never seen a failure to date.
A lot of coders disagree with MS and support the open licence, which is why MS does everything it can to throw a spanner in the works. local and government depts being advised to use open source rather than MS products, think of the revenue it would loose. But of course having the so-called IT people to use it is the biggest problem to it's use.
I look at it no diffrent to OOF a collection of people with the same interest. Coders are no different they live & breath coding, they reverse engineer all windows products and will show you where DOS still plays a part they know the product better than MS. It is truly amazing to see what a rushian can do with even a 282 absolutly truly unbelivable.
And no I am not a coder but still prefer the command line.
Yes, piracy existed long before broadband, even the internet. Fast connections have given it a much larger footprint.
As to Unix and the Internet, yes (proper) Unix is used extensively. Yes, I support many servers with uptimes of 4yrs plus (rarely given maintenence windows :'(). Remember, though, that infrastructure servers will be running a minimal amount of software, perhaps for example, the kernel and Bind.
4yr uptimes is wrong. Utterly wrong. No OS is without flaws, and an OS that is running 4yrs out of date must be vulnerable to a whole host of remotely exploitable flaws.
Saying that, my brothers old NT4 server was up for over 4yrs (as a closed system, patching less important), and his Windows 2000 Server systems likewise, until it all became Internet connected and hence (usually) monthly reboots for the patching.
Windows uptime is let down not be the OS, but by the applications. Most of the time you can kill the misbehaving app, but sometimes you need to reboot. No different to Unix.
Note, I have specifically not mentioned Linux, as that is an entirely different beast, and shows that disorganised development is not a recipe for stable software.
Agreed, every protection system is overcomable (temporarily), but thats the point of WGA. A determined person will keep cracking it every time. The people who won't pay for anything will keep searching the virus/malware ridden crack sites for cracks. Most of Joe Public will not bother and get a licence. As said, small PC shops don't dare to put on cracked copies, as the next set of updates will show that.
The Open Licence (forgetting MS Open Licencing scheme which is something different), The Free Software Foundation, and the GNU Pulic licence etc does not mean 'free' software, as in zero cost. 'Free' means something entirely different in this case. It is still against the law to copy, use and distribute it, unless it specifically grants you that permission. That is how the main Linux distributors make their money. Many of the poorer distros are 'free', but the likes of Redhat etc aren't. A lot of confusion exists over 'free' software, as people do believe they can do what they like, distribution wise.
Granted, there is an awful lot of truely free software from the open software movement, some of it very good. The problem is (from a desktop view - server admins generally want to pay for their software), for an entirely free software platform, much of it relies on Linux as the kernel, and is built up with flakey X11 implementations, and awkward window managers. The advantage Microsoft has is being a single corporation, they have made this reliable, tight, fast, and about as user friendly as you can get (they have the money to pile into user testing, rather than the user interface a geek developer wants).
I am a (amateur) coder. Bit rusty when it comes to assembler now, but could pick it back up if I wanted. But the days of proudly saying what your code can do in 1000 bytes are gone. Too difficult to debug. A Windows app (users do not want to use command apps anymore) needs about 1500 - 2000 lines of C++ code to display the window (Linux window apps no different), so libraries are used. Libraries tend to be generic, so any dragged in function will contain more code than needed by that specific call, and so the bloat begins. But a little bloat doesn't matter, as we are not confined to 640k RAM split into 64k chunks, and floppy disks any more. Additionally, the actual code for most apps is quite small, but the icons, graphics, and other resources pad out the .exe file. There is no need, on desktop/server systems to assembler it, unless a particular function needs speed (and even then, the modern compilers are good enough). Why spend weeks doing it the hard way when the same can be achieved, for example, with a .NET programming package (either Visual Studio or the freebies (or even the freebie Visual Studio Apps!)). Now embedded systems, thats a different kettle of fish, and often does require the use of machine code.
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i have vista and i think its brilliant!
Jamie
:) ;) 8-) :y
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Anyone use Ubuntu :question
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Anyone use Ubuntu :question
Urgh! Linux!