Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: jonny2112 on 25 January 2007, 15:30:28
-
I've been told by local tyre dealer that I should be taking the Omega to Vx to have the alignment checked, as he won't touch them any more. Anyone had it done by Vx or indeed any other company?
-
had mine tracked and balanced at a Vx dealer in West Drayton.
Can't remember how much it cost, not too bad against regular places i seam to remember.
They did an excellent job, i had weights on the outside of the alloy, the re-balanced them and tracked it. Before i got wheel wobble between 75mph & 80mph
Afterwards nice and smooth right into 3 figures, also tyre ware has been excellent. 15k miles on same set of tyres, + previous owners. Still got 8mm at front!!! :o (MOT to prove) and 6mm at the back.
-
I've been told by local tyre dealer that I should be taking the Omega to Vx to have the alignment checked, as he won't touch them any more. Anyone had it done by Vx or indeed any other company?
I would tell your local tyre dealer that he's a wayne kerr, & take my Omega somewhere else to buy tyres & have the tracking done!
I've had no problem with the local KwikTit & their laser beam gear, last time mine was done more proper like was at Vx main dealer. Luckily my son has friends in all the right places :y
Good Luck,
John
-
It's nothing to with Vx dealer. Anyone who has the correct 4-wheel alignment kit, and knows what they are doing, can do it - if your Vx dealer happen to be so equipped and has the right skills in house then so be it, but chances are that a specialist will be better at that... I think your local tyre guy preferred to say 'it's a dealer job' rather than admit 'you need to go to someone else who actually knows how to do proper 4-wheel alignment'.
Mine was done by The Man himself, have a look at Tony's website http://wheels-inmotion.co.uk , you can email him to see if he can recommend someone in NI...
-
It's nothing to with Vx dealer. Anyone who has the correct 4-wheel alignment kit, and knows what they are doing, can do it - if your Vx dealer happen to be so equipped and has the right skills in house then so be it, but chances are that a specialist will be better at that... I think your local tyre guy preferred to say 'it's a dealer job' rather than admit 'you need to go to someone else who actually knows how to do proper 4-wheel alignment'.
My was done by The Man himself, have a look at Tony's website http://wheels-inmotion.co.uk , you can email him to see if he can recommend someone in NI...
I PM'd Tony recently for northern recommendations but if it's not listed on his site he can't help. Full geometry is his baby and no one else seems to offer the same service :(
-
I would be inclined to not bother with tracking/4 wheel alignment type checks, but do a full geometry check instead. Probably about double the cost, but worth it imho...
-
The reason some places won't touch VX's in general is due to the tracking adjusters being exposed to road cr*p and are usually seized solid. Even tho' they usually free up when heated, some places won't do this in case of damage to the arms.
I reckon next time the tracking was done, if one was apply copper grease to the threads and use something like an old cycle inner tube, zip tied at each end to seal the adjusters from the elements, that would be an end to the hassle.
Not that I've done this myself, but I reckon it would work...wouldn't it ???
-
It's nothing to with Vx dealer. Anyone who has the correct 4-wheel alignment kit, and knows what they are doing, can do it - if your Vx dealer happen to be so equipped and has the right skills in house then so be it, but chances are that a specialist will be better at that... I think your local tyre guy preferred to say 'it's a dealer job' rather than admit 'you need to go to someone else who actually knows how to do proper 4-wheel alignment'.
My was done by The Man himself, have a look at Tony's website http://wheels-inmotion.co.uk , you can email him to see if he can recommend someone in NI...
I PM'd Tony recently for northern recommendations but if it's not listed on his site he can't help. Full geometry is his baby and no one else seems to offer the same service :(
Unfortunately policing the conduct of other companies is not an easy task, even more so if it carries the wim stamp of approval. After three years i only have five centres around the UK who i can trust (implicitly) Obviously this is not acceptable so we had to reassess how we help the customer.
This is how things have evolved..... Normally the complaint is emailed to wim, we asses the complaint and categorize the method of solution, if it's Geometrical we ask the owners to choose a destination for correction... We then contact the company, explain the problem and what is needed to resolve the complaint in advance of the owners visit. After the corrections we then validate the final positions for the owner.... Loads of invisible work for wim but rewarding for club members... and the cost is £0 :y
-
Where is the furthest north recommended place that can do full geometry?
BTW I posted on your forum a few weeks ago about getting my Omega done, my last post was about Drivers in Glasgow being able to do alignment and camber. Sorry I haven't replied, kinda forgot about it! Although you said tracking & camber should be OK, I'd really like a proper full setup as this car does behave strangely under heavy braking and I've already had camber and tracking done.
Cheers.
-
I've been told by local tyre dealer that I should be taking the Omega to Vx to have the alignment checked, as he won't touch them any more. Anyone had it done by Vx or indeed any other company?
I had uneven tyre wear so had a full computer laser alignment done at the local independant tyre shop. They don't like Omegas because the links seize solid as had mine. They had to heat them up with the gas and eventually they moved. They carry a stock of new trackrod ends for Omegas because 9 out of 10 sheer of apparently. It turned out to be way out on the front and one rear was toeing in alot so it was crabbing.
When finished you get a colour print out showing the car chassis and the new corrected readings showing toe,camber thrust angle,and caster angles. You then have proof of a straight chassis if selling the vehicle on.
I thought for £50.22 it was money well spent. It turns out the local Vauxhall main dealer and others use this place because its cheaper than having there own. So if you took it to Vauxhall they would just add more to the price.
-
Having had new wishbones fitted today I phoned local tyrefitter and asked if they did 4 way alignment
-"Oh yes Sir, of course we do" was the reply.
"So you can adjust all 4 then"
" Well no, we only adjust the front ones"
"But you can check the camber?"
"Well no, it's not adjustable at the front, but we'll have a look for you"
So 4 way wheel alignment here consists of front tracking only @ £15 - bargain! ;D
Another local fitter can check and adjust all 4 for £30, so in absence of a place to visit for full geometry I'll have to settle for them. BTW car drives much the same as before, slight pull to the left has increased but the knock has gone when exiting speedbumps.
-
...slight pull to the left has increased...
They all pull to the left! ;D
Really - no one believes me >:(
-
...slight pull to the left has increased...
They all pull to the left! ;D
Really - no one believes me >:(
I do! ;) It always wandered a little but now it's just a bit more noticeable, or perhaps it's just me. Garage mechanic today said he wouldn't bother with tracking as it would only be out now if it was already out before. Couldn't really test it today as all the roads were frozen - passed a 4x4 being loaded onto recovery truck after hitting a country wall - must've thought they were invincible ( bet they didn't realise it was 2 wheel drive, lol)
BTW you're avatar's gone missing Markjay (who ever you really are ;))
-
Having had new wishbones fitted today I phoned local tyrefitter and asked if they did 4 way alignment
-"Oh yes Sir, of course we do" was the reply.
"So you can adjust all 4 then"
" Well no, we only adjust the front ones"
"But you can check the camber?"
"Well no, it's not adjustable at the front, but we'll have a look for you"
So 4 way wheel alignment here consists of front tracking only @ £15 - bargain! ;D
Another local fitter can check and adjust all 4 for £30, so in absence of a place to visit for full geometry I'll have to settle for them. BTW car drives much the same as before, slight pull to the left has increased but the knock has gone when exiting speedbumps.
The camber is adjustable on Omegas. 4 wheel alignment does NOT adjust the rear tracking, it simply uses the rears as a reference point, nothing more.
Ring a few local bodyshops, and see if they recommend anywhere local who can do proper full geometry...
-
Took it in today & if my scanner worked I would copy the printout but here'e the data:
Front
Total Toe -13.9 now +0.9
Toe -7.2 - 6.7 now +0.5 +0.4
Camber -1.3 - 2.2 now -1.4 -2.4
Cross Camber +1.0 now +0.9 (Range -0.5 +0.5)
Rear
Total Toe +1.3
Toe +0.5 +0.8 (Range +0.6 + 1.8)
Thrust Angle (on) +0.0
Camber -1.4 -1.9
Cross Camber +0.4
Given rear only out by tolerance of 0.1 on Toe, these weren't adjusted.
-
Took it in today & if my scanner worked I would copy the printout but here'e the data:
Front
Total Toe -13.9 now +0.9
Toe -7.2 - 6.7 now +0.5 +0.4
Camber -1.3 - 2.2 now -1.4 -2.4
Cross Camber +1.0 now +0.9 (Range -0.5 +0.5)
Rear
Total Toe +1.3
Toe +0.5 +0.8 (Range +0.6 + 1.8)
Thrust Angle (on) +0.0
Camber -1.4 -1.9
Cross Camber +0.4
Given rear only out by tolerance of 0.1 on Toe, these weren't adjusted.
Looking good! :y
How does it drive?
-
I think I've got the only Omega that doesn't pull to the left ;)
TBH it felt a bit vauge yesterday - like the tyres were over inflated. But it now feels sure footed again :y
I know it's not a full geometry set up, but the rear hasn't been touched since new nearly 4 years ago and its still within tolereance and at just £15 for the front I'd say it was money well spent. :)
-
I agree that is sounds like your local tyre dealer is a waste of space.
After doing my wishbones & struts last weekend, took the car to a GOOD local tyre dealer & they did a full 4 wheel geometry with before and after print outs (even tho I didn't buy any tyres).
They did comment that the price would depend on how easy it was to get things unsiezed - luckily it all moved without a problem!
-
Where is the furthest north recommended place that can do full geometry?
BTW I posted on your forum a few weeks ago about getting my Omega done, my last post was about Drivers in Glasgow being able to do alignment and camber. Sorry I haven't replied, kinda forgot about it! Although you said tracking & camber should be OK, I'd really like a proper full setup as this car does behave strangely under heavy braking and I've already had camber and tracking done.
Cheers.
If the poor handling only occurs under braking then the problem is unlikely to be Geometrical..... Obviously the Geometry goes through transitions under braking but there would also be evidence in the handling during relaxed driving.
-
Took it in today & if my scanner worked I would copy the printout but here'e the data:
Front
Total Toe -13.9 now +0.9
Toe -7.2 - 6.7 now +0.5 +0.4
Camber -1.3 - 2.2 now -1.4 -2.4
Cross Camber +1.0 now +0.9 (Range -0.5 +0.5)
Rear
Total Toe +1.3
Toe +0.5 +0.8 (Range +0.6 + 1.8)
Thrust Angle (on) +0.0
Camber -1.4 -1.9
Cross Camber +0.4
Given rear only out by tolerance of 0.1 on Toe, these weren't adjusted.
Sorry i don't like it!.... Why is the front camber disparity still 1 degree?... There are three errors in this.
1: Camber is conically compressive deforming the tyre sidewall. The force needs to be met with equal resistance or it will "push" to the lower figure.
2: Camber is subject to "camber gain" This is the compressive "on the bump" radii taken by the wishbones. I feel the osf will exceed the desired gain and wear the tyre inner.
3: You could notice different cornering reactions... left turn aided by the very negative osf camber... right turn heavily/ aggravated by the camber.
-
Took it in today & if my scanner worked I would copy the printout but here'e the data:
Front
Total Toe -13.9 now +0.9
Toe -7.2 - 6.7 now +0.5 +0.4
Camber -1.3 - 2.2 now -1.4 -2.4
Cross Camber +1.0 now +0.9 (Range -0.5 +0.5)
Rear
Total Toe +1.3
Toe +0.5 +0.8 (Range +0.6 + 1.8)
Thrust Angle (on) +0.0
Camber -1.4 -1.9
Cross Camber +0.4
Given rear only out by tolerance of 0.1 on Toe, these weren't adjusted.
Sorry i don't like it!.... Why is the front camber disparity still 1 degree?... There are three errors in this.
1: Camber is conically compressive deforming the tyre sidewall. The force needs to be met with equal resistance or it will "push" to the lower figure.
2: Camber is subject to "camber gain" This is the compressive "on the bump" radii taken by the wishbones. I feel the osf will exceed the desired gain and wear the tyre inner.
3: You could notice different cornering reactions... left turn aided by the very negative osf camber... right turn heavily/ aggravated by the camber.
Thanks Tony - the only trouble is the garage "specialist" is Polish and can only adjust the tracking. My tyres wear evenly, apart from slight feathering of the outside edge presumably caused by the faulty wishbones. Garage said " We only do tracking mate - there is no camber adjustment on these" so he just adjusted what he could. Car is fitted with Pirelli P7's 225/55/16. Tyre wall did fail on the first set but I can't recall inner/outer but sure it was the nsf. Current set all seem ok.
-
Took it in today & if my scanner worked I would copy the printout but here'e the data:
Front
Total Toe -13.9 now +0.9
Toe -7.2 - 6.7 now +0.5 +0.4
Camber -1.3 - 2.2 now -1.4 -2.4
Cross Camber +1.0 now +0.9 (Range -0.5 +0.5)
Rear
Total Toe +1.3
Toe +0.5 +0.8 (Range +0.6 + 1.8)
Thrust Angle (on) +0.0
Camber -1.4 -1.9
Cross Camber +0.4
Given rear only out by tolerance of 0.1 on Toe, these weren't adjusted.
Sorry i don't like it!.... Why is the front camber disparity still 1 degree?... There are three errors in this.
1: Camber is conically compressive deforming the tyre sidewall. The force needs to be met with equal resistance or it will "push" to the lower figure.
2: Camber is subject to "camber gain" This is the compressive "on the bump" radii taken by the wishbones. I feel the osf will exceed the desired gain and wear the tyre inner.
3: You could notice different cornering reactions... left turn aided by the very negative osf camber... right turn heavily/ aggravated by the camber.
Thanks Tony - the only trouble is the garage "specialist" is Polish and can only adjust the tracking. My tyres wear evenly, apart from slight feathering of the outside edge presumably caused by the faulty wishbones. Garage said " We only do tracking mate - there is no camber adjustment on these" so he just adjusted what he could. Car is fitted with Pirelli P7's 225/55/16. Tyre wall did fail on the first set but I can't recall inner/outer but sure it was the nsf. Current set all seem ok.
I have absolutely no problems being wrong but i do have enough wisdom to command that you stay vigilant and monitor the inner tyre wear!....... If in a years time the tyres are wearing correctly you can header a topic "wheels-inmotion talks pants" and i will bow my head.... In the mean time i am concerned so please be wise!!!!!
-
Took it in today & if my scanner worked I would copy the printout but here'e the data:
Front
Total Toe -13.9 now +0.9
Toe -7.2 - 6.7 now +0.5 +0.4
Camber -1.3 - 2.2 now -1.4 -2.4
Cross Camber +1.0 now +0.9 (Range -0.5 +0.5)
Rear
Total Toe +1.3
Toe +0.5 +0.8 (Range +0.6 + 1.8)
Thrust Angle (on) +0.0
Camber -1.4 -1.9
Cross Camber +0.4
Given rear only out by tolerance of 0.1 on Toe, these weren't adjusted.
Sorry i don't like it!.... Why is the front camber disparity still 1 degree?... There are three errors in this.
1: Camber is conically compressive deforming the tyre sidewall. The force needs to be met with equal resistance or it will "push" to the lower figure.
2: Camber is subject to "camber gain" This is the compressive "on the bump" radii taken by the wishbones. I feel the osf will exceed the desired gain and wear the tyre inner.
3: You could notice different cornering reactions... left turn aided by the very negative osf camber... right turn heavily/ aggravated by the camber.
Thanks Tony - the only trouble is the garage "specialist" is Polish and can only adjust the tracking. My tyres wear evenly, apart from slight feathering of the outside edge presumably caused by the faulty wishbones. Garage said " We only do tracking mate - there is no camber adjustment on these" so he just adjusted what he could. Car is fitted with Pirelli P7's 225/55/16. Tyre wall did fail on the first set but I can't recall inner/outer but sure it was the nsf. Current set all seem ok.
I have absolutely no problems being wrong but i do have enough wisdom to command that you stay vigilant and monitor the inner tyre wear!....... If in a years time the tyres are wearing correctly you can header a topic "wheels-inmotion talks pants" and i will bow my head.... In the mean time i am concerned so please be wise!!!!!
Please don't misunderstand Tony - I actually wan't your help and advice. Camber, cross camber etc are just words to me but I know for you they reveal much more. What I meant to ask was - Is there anything I can get the Polish lad to do to address the issue - as I may need a step by step guide. :y
-
Reply to "chopsdad"
I'm sorry i don't fully understand...... The printout displayed is a full Geometry... But you say the Polish lad can only set the Alignment? Wherever measured the camber positions needs to finish the job correctly. If they are unable to realize where they have gone wrong wim is quite prepared to explain.... If you pm me their # i will contact them in advance of your return or have them contact me 01923 234666. Complaining is not easy, particularly if the topic is something you don't fully understand.... Remember you have done nothing wrong.
-
Chopsdad, I agree with Tony here.....front camber is a critical setting on the Omega (I aim to have it set to -1deg 20sec)....if they can measure it then why dont they adjust it!
As for the statement of 'camber is not adjustable', we all know thats wrong!
-
Chopsdad, I agree with Tony here.....front camber is a critical setting on the Omega (I aim to have it set to -1deg 20sec)....if they can measure it then why dont they adjust it!
As for the statement of 'camber is not adjustable', we all know thats wrong!
(http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/2917/camberti0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
-
So is it common for omegas to pull slightly to the left??
I bought mine just under 2 months ago and took it to a networkQ garage, they advised me to get the tracking checked for the pull and the tracking is spot on, having said that, my rear nearside tyre is bald! if i get a fresh set of tyres put on, am i still gonna get very slight left pull?
if so, is this only due to natural lay of the road?
-
So is it common for omegas to pull slightly to the left??
I bought mine just under 2 months ago and took it to a networkQ garage, they advised me to get the tracking checked for the pull and the tracking is spot on, having said that, my rear nearside tyre is bald! if i get a fresh set of tyres put on, am i still gonna get very slight left pull?
if so, is this only due to natural lay of the road?
Does seem to be common, but I would recommend a proper geometry check, see www.wheels-inmotion.co.uk who is a member here...
-
I had an argument with the guy in the last place I got my tyres done, he was sure that the camber couldn't be adjusted on Omegs. Well, until he checked his little book that is.... ;)
He also said that I have to take it to Vauxhall to get it done.
-
So is it common for omegas to pull slightly to the left??...
Yes!!!!!
Both my Omegas had this, plus a couple others that I test drove.
A few years ago I booked my car with Vx for four-wheel alignment which made no difference whatsoever...
Tony from WIM is the first who managed to get this under control, there is still a tiny hint of it, but almost unnoticeable otherwise.
Go see Tony, he's the man... :y
-
I do noy understand why technicians while they have the equipment and the data always struggle to achieve the nominal values of a suspension geometry i also don't understand the reason why they are still in business and why there is nobody checking their standard of work given the fact that suspension geometry is critical kealth and safety issue. They are being paid why do they not do the job properly?
It reminds me when i had my omega set up after being a pain in the technician''s ass he finally got the values i wanted and then i asked him " did u tighten the bolts to 110NM?" and he said "No" i asked him to do it and he had to tighten the nuts about 200 degrees for the torque wrench to click.
Guys whatever you to always supervise them no matter how uncomfortable it is and always make sure they do the correct thing.
-
could not agree more i was a PIA with my local Tyre Fitters They used to hold there head in there hands when i turned up but through Dogged " No its still not right" attitude i finaly got the car right ,they Have 4 wheel alignment kit but the equipment is only as good as the operator. incidently a reading of -1.2 and -2,.2 will definatly make the car pull to the kerb Tony at WIM certainly knows wat he is on about i dont possess to know anything like that but i do know that my 1998 2.5 CDX DOES not pull to the left its as straight as a die running. My Front camber settings are NS -1.10 min and the OFS is -55min i got 19000 on my last set of tyres and had the camber rechecked when i changed the tyres in Nov the fitter who now knows me well for my doggedness said only altered ofs track slightly to bring it correct it steers perfect the camber difference stops it pulling to left
Robert
-
As a further aside the settings he achieved on my car he now applies to all Omegas that come in for wheel alignment
Robert
-
Wheel alignment is a waste of time and money if the operator doesn't understand the numbers he's getting from the machine.
My wife got conned into having her "tracking" checked at a well known high street tyre outfit and was told both sides were "miles out". Next time I drove the car the steering wheel was at about 20 degrees from the straight ahead position when running straight. I looked at the report and the guy had wound about 30 minutes on one side and about 30 minutes off the other. So the total toe hadn't been changed at all, just the steering wheel position! Took it back and complained and I watched him adjust it again without bracing the steering wheel in the straight ahead position. Just got a blank look when I pointed out his mistake. If the guy doesn't understand the effect of the steering wheel on front toe he shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a car.
In contrast, got the Omega checked at a decent place the other day and the chap was very helpful. He pointed out that my camber was within limits but in his opinion the limits were a bit wide and that it might be advisable for me to bring it back and have that properly set.
I've got -1.89 on the left and -2.07 on the right at the moment. Doesn't seem to be pulling to the left despite this but he said I might get shoulder wear with that much camber. What's the collective wisdom on this?
Limits were -0.92 to -2.42.
Kevin
-
-1' 20'' is the value I target for front camber......and both as close to each other as possible.....on most Omegas this is about as little camber as the adjustment will allow you to set.....
-
I think I've got the only Omega that doesn't pull to the left ;)
Hello: I've joined specificaly to resolve this issue in my year-2000 2.0 estate. I just wish I could remember if it was like it from purchase 2 yrs ago. Symptom: have to keep a small right hand bias on the steering otherwise if I take my hands off the steering wheel it immediately flicks out of my hand to its preferred neutral position - and the car will hit the curve after about 50 yards or so even on a completely flat, straight road. Tracking checked and apparently OK. Does seem to wear FNS tyres on inner rim, but again, told that tracking is OK. Tyres have been changed front and rear, and are now two pairs of new budget tyres. No effect on pulling, not even when inner rim worn away.
If the road has a slight camber to the right (say, a long gradual bend) this can exactly compensate for the pull.
Even down to about 15mph this pulling is evident. A fine car that I'd like to keep alive but this is frustrating me now. Thanks for your suggestions (I am non technical). My local non-Vauxhall garage tells me the car is 'ok' but it's not and I'm amazed that he's insensitive to the pull.
Alan
-
I think I've got the only Omega that doesn't pull to the left ;)
Hello: I've joined specificaly to resolve this issue in my year-2000 2.0 estate. I just wish I could remember if it was like it from purchase 2 yrs ago. Symptom: have to keep a small right hand bias on the steering otherwise if I take my hands off the steering wheel it immediately flicks out of my hand to its preferred neutral position - and the car will hit the curve after about 50 yards or so even on a completely flat, straight road. Tracking checked and apparently OK. Does seem to wear FNS tyres on inner rim, but again, told that tracking is OK. Tyres have been changed front and rear, and are now two pairs of new budget tyres. No effect on pulling, not even when inner rim worn away.
If the road has a slight camber to the right (say, a long gradual bend) this can exactly compensate for the pull.
Even down to about 15mph this pulling is evident. A fine car that I'd like to keep alive but this is frustrating me now. Thanks for your suggestions (I am non technical). My local non-Vauxhall garage tells me the car is 'ok' but it's not and I'm amazed that he's insensitive to the pull.
Alan
I recommend a trip from Sussex up the M25 to Watford... Go see Tony at STS. He will put your Omega right, so my suggestion is that you don't waste time trying to get it sorted by local tyre fitters etc. Mention this forum to Tony and get a discount off the already very-reasonable price! :y
-
Oh, and welcome to the forum AlanShaw.
(where are my manners? :-[)
-
Welcome to the forum - see this web site - http://www.wheels-inmotion.co.uk/
-
...Does seem to wear FNS tyres on inner rim, but again, told that tracking is OK....
Also, mine used to do that, at one point where the white canvas was showing even though the tyre had still usable thread eslewhere. Apparently this happens if the suspension setting on Omega are set to manufacturer's values - but these can be improved on to resolve the problem (did I mention Tony at STS Watford?)
-
Welcome AlanShaw :)
The inner wear is likely to be camber.
As has been suggested, a trip to Wheels-InMotion would be a worthwhile trip (book first though!). I personally recommend him.
-
-1' 20'' is the value I target for front camber......and both as close to each other as possible.....on most Omegas this is about as little camber as the adjustment will allow you to set.....
Can i offer this reading from the wim forum... It's just a simple explanation that there is no such thing as "Actual Geometry positions"
............................................
The simple answer is that there is no such thing!
Seeking the perfect set-up is dependent on variables that exceed even the most experienced in the industry, F1 with millions invested each season still cannot deliver 'matter of fact' positions, so what do you do? how can anyone establish the perfect set-up.
First lets look at the manufacture
Geometry within new models tends to be an extension of previous established positions, minor tweaks to accommodate suspension travel, wider tyres and so on is often visible and do fall into the 'safe zone', but attempt to manufacture a completely new Geometry then things can go very wrong, as it did for the Nissan 350Z and the new Peugeot 1002.
So now your modified
Taken from the above the car had recognized Geometric positions and is now modified... suspension, tyres, turbo but now things just don't feel right, well maybe understanding the 'forces' involved within Geometry not just the name of the angles could help.
Toe: exerts no force unless violated to the maximum since the chosen position 'Dynamically' is 0
Camber: exerts a 'conical' force and will want to roll into the lowest point of the imaginary cone, the force adds security to straight line travel and compensates for body roll.... excessive camber will make the steering heavy and lazy (turn out) due to the 'compressive' force generated from the angular position of the imaginary cone.
Castor: exerts a non-reactive longitudinal force assuming the positions over the axle are within manufactured tolerances, on cornering the Castor contributes toward displacement of the steering axis and the position of the 'scrub radius' this force is very important.
KPI/SJI: exerts a very high force toward directional stability, this force is immediately detectable if any attempt is made to deviate from straight line travel... the force is generated by 'inclining' the pin during any steering action, this inclination lifts the vehicle and adds weight on the pin, in reply the equilibrium through the rack will return the steering so the KPI can relax.
How to develop your own positions
First consider your reasons, what do you expect from the car and to what end, is tyre wear an issue, are the modifications cosmetic or deliberate? The four examples shown reflect the most common consequences of modifying a car, in particular lowering, the forces displayed need to be examined in your own example and explored.
It could be easy to assume now that all things 'Geometrical have been covered?
........................................
Following posts in this thread can i also explain these observations...
1: No domestic car is designed to pull/ drift left. All cars sold in the UK have an expected range to resist "road crown deviation". Because the road crown deforms the nsf/ osf tyre circumference so depending on the tyres "aspect ratio" an eventual pneumatic steer is inevitable.
2: The Omega has a very poor "DI" dynamic index. This means the roll centre during weight transitions requires very high front coil rates. In reply this also means a long damper stroke. In summary the coil-over-oil dynamics is extremely fluid..... "do we all agree on that!"
3: The above suggests "static Geometry" as a modifier can be deemed as less than perfect! Well we all know that! That's why there are so many complaints here.... so what to do?
4: Historically the static front camber positions does not comply with the dynamics. Many past examples in measurement and final corrective positions can suggest a "global" set-up but this is not the law! so the actual complaint -ver- positions must be read on the fly so to speak..... But we have another problem?
5: Camber Change - If a wheel has positive Castor, then the top of the wheel leans into the corner whichever way it is steered. The change in Camber is approximately:
Camber Change = Castor x steer-angle / 60 (measured in degrees)
Example: Camber Change = 6 degrees
Steer-angle = 10 degrees
Then:- Camber Change = 6 x 10/ 60 = 1.0 degree
The change in camber that results from positive Castor is beneficial to the grip of both front wheels during cornering, providing it isn't excessive. A negative Castor (top of the steer-axis leaning forwards) changes the wheel Camber angles in the 'wrong' direction during cornering, this is not desirable.
Self-Centering phenomenon
Castor has a self-centring effect that is similar to that of SJI/KPI. As the wheel is steered away from straight-ahead its Camber angle changes and more weight is carried by one edge of the wheel. This shifts the wheelprint centre sideways and the offset force then acts to return the wheel to straight-ahead. As with the SAI/KPI self-centring this effect is proportional to the Castor and to the radius of curvature of the tyre.
Self-centring exists even if the tyre is narrow, although it is almost non-existent at small steer-angles. It is very evident on wide, flat cross-section tyres with stiff sidewalls.
Castor Trail
The common argument for the trail is wrong and it aggravates me since the example has become a seed for most attempting to explain the trail.
Geometry= X. Y. Z Three dimensions... There is no exact law or solution only understanding and recognition... And finally team work between the tech and the owner.
-
Wheel alignment is a waste of time and money if the operator doesn't understand the numbers he's getting from the machine.
My wife got conned into having her "tracking" checked at a well known high street tyre outfit and was told both sides were "miles out". Next time I drove the car the steering wheel was at about 20 degrees from the straight ahead position when running straight. I looked at the report and the guy had wound about 30 minutes on one side and about 30 minutes off the other. So the total toe hadn't been changed at all, just the steering wheel position! Took it back and complained and I watched him adjust it again without bracing the steering wheel in the straight ahead position. Just got a blank look when I pointed out his mistake. If the guy doesn't understand the effect of the steering wheel on front toe he shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a car.
In contrast, got the Omega checked at a decent place the other day and the chap was very helpful. He pointed out that my camber was within limits but in his opinion the limits were a bit wide and that it might be advisable for me to bring it back and have that properly set.
I've got -1.89 on the left and -2.07 on the right at the moment. Doesn't seem to be pulling to the left despite this but he said I might get shoulder wear with that much camber. What's the collective wisdom on this?
Limits were -0.92 to -2.42.
Kevin
Where is this place Kevin, I'm not a million miles from you and wouldn't have a clue where to take it around here..
Cheers,
Chris.
-
Where is this place Kevin, I'm not a million miles from you and wouldn't have a clue where to take it around here..
I got the Omega checked at Micheldever tyres at Micheldever station. Don't know if you've been there before but they are a very competitive (price-wise) tyre fitters. It's a bit of a production line when the place is busy so you don't get much in the way of personal service, especially at weekends, but if you phone them up and explain what you want, and ask them when they're quiet it should be OK. Best to try and get there on a weekday I'd say. They don't charge the earth either. I think my alignment check came to £17. It'd probably be more if they had to adjust more as I think it was itemised as "adjust toe" on the bill. They just tweaked the toe on mine.
They've got a couple of bays with optical alignment gear and measured Caster, Camber and Toe on the front and Camber, Toe and Thrust angle at the rear, along with setback and track and wheel base differences.
I've also had a good job done by Farnham Tyre and Exhaust near Farnham station but it was much more pricey. About £70 for an alignment on the wife's MX-5. Can't remember how much they adjusted but I think that was a fixed price. It did drive nicely afterwards though.
Cheers,
Kevin
-
Nice one, thanks Kevin.
-
Just had my setup checked. Front camber is -2.06 deg left and - 2.42 deg right. More than Mark's recommendation of -1.2 deg.
Is this enough to give quite severe inner edge wear?
If so, how is it adjusted?
-
yep that will kill tyres in no time ! :(
-
Just found this on WIM's website. The tyre wear pattern is identical to mine.
WIM - Camber Angle Basics - Clicky (http://www.wheels-inmotion.co.uk/theory/camber.html)
Will get myself booked in :y
Edit to add:
Got a good diagram of where camber is adjusted on this link.
H&R Camber Adjustment from oronge tuning - clicky (http://orange-tuning.com/shop/camber-adjustment-triple-tc212-p-2007.html)
-
...slight pull to the left has increased...
They all pull to the left! ;D
Really - no one believes me >:(
My miggy pulls to the left slightly.More noticable on steep cambered roads.Had mine checked two weeks ago.by laser and told it was spot on.
-
when i lived down south, i used PROTYRE in slough - they had the 4 wheel laser equipment that checked ALL four alignment, caster and camber also - cost about £45 'ish - every car i have had i took to them and they were excellent (asked for the same guy all the time 'cos he knew his stuff)- always ended up with a smooth and perfect drive. - they have depots countrywide so you will need to check them out, and again, it depends on the operative as to what sort of job you get.
also you could try www.AlignMyCar.co.uk dont know what theyre like tho
-
I'd say 2 deg+ will really eat the tyres.
My omega has never pulled left or right but that's because all my suspension angles are set up correctly and evenly. The problem is the settings can be within Vx spec but be quite uneven. The Vx tolerance is massive, for camber it's almost "are the wheels attached" right that's Ok!
-
I'd say 2 deg+ will really eat the tyres.
My omega has never pulled left or right but that's because all my suspension angles are set up correctly and evenly. The problem is the settings can be within Vx spec but be quite uneven. The Vx tolerance is massive, for camber it's almost "are the wheels attached" right that's Ok!
lmao! sounds about right to me.. my dad had a chevrolet-got it through vx and he had a seal changed for the t-tops... they managed to get it in the wrong way round even though it looked like it could have only gone in one way round lol!
i think it was "it's in"
-
I had full geometry setup on my elite 6 months ago at Micheldever (they previously did an excellent job on my first Omega).
It was pulling to left and the nearside tyre was scrubbing on the inside.
Camber was -1.82/-1.93 before, -1.21/-1.09 afterwards
Toe was -.14/.49 before (assuming negative is pointing outwards it was no surprise the car headed for the ditch), .1/.1 afterwards
However it still pulled to the left (probably less than before).
I took it back and the technician blamed the 'cheap' tyres (Barum). Whilst I did not buy them, I can't see how that would cause pulling :-/
He put it on the rig again and without adjusting anything got
camber of -1.35/-.95. I can understand getting different numbers due to loading etc but interesting that they have shifted in different directions. I still think though that with less camber on the off side the net pull should be towards the middle of the road.
The answer to all this may be, as I later discovered at WIM (along with the rest of the forum it seemed), that my nearside wisbone bushes were shot - presumably making all the above measurements irrelevant when the car is moving.
Now I have new bushes (courtesy of Mark and his (deceased :-[) press, I will need to get it set up again and then we'll see..
A bit disappointing that Micheldever did not check the wb bushes before starting out :(
-
Definately get it checked again.
I haven't posted this because I am a bit emarrased at driving about like it. But my toe was 11.5mm out after fitting new bushes. No wonder they didn't feel great :-[