Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Mr Skrunts on 01 January 2009, 16:22:11
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My 3.0 Elite has a totally flat but brand new Vx Go battery, the car hasnt been used for ages and therefore will have to enter via doorlock/key and then jump start it.
How many miles would it take to put enough charge in the battery to
A. Restart the car under it's own power.
B. Fully charge the battery.
I would base the recharging speed on a 40 mph drive arround local dual carriageways.
TIA. :y
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B. Fully charge the battery. .....
I have read in the past that you're looking at about 200 miles! :o Also depends whether you have lights, heater fan, heated seats, heated rear screen etc etc. Stick it on charge! :y :y :y
Quicker & cheaper in the long run.
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In my experience, a battery that is too weak to turn the starter (but not completely flat) will have reasonable charge after around 15 minutes normal drive, i.e. fast urban. Obviously it will charge better if this is done on Motorway, and in daylight and good weather so no need for lights/wipers/demister etc. Hope this helps.
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If its a new battery, I would think 20-30 mins would be enough to allow the car to start under its own power.
However it all depends on how flat the battery actually is, and what condition its in. My vectra had a flat battery (car had been sat for +6 months), jump started it and left it running for a good 35 mins, and it only just had enough power to lock the central locking! Went back to it a week later, and it was totaly dead again!
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i think that battery was dead ian!
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Once its jump started, really needs a fair few miles to get it fully back, and thats without any electrical load such as headlights, heater fans, stero and the like. No doubt someone will quote electrical sums somewhere along the line, but I would prefer to put it on an overnight trickle charge, if possible....
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If its a new battery, I would think 20-30 mins would be enough to allow the car to start under its own power.
However it all depends on how flat the battery actually is, and what condition its in. My vectra had a flat battery (car had been sat for +6 months), jump started it and left it running for a good 35 mins, and it only just had enough power to lock the central locking! Went back to it a week later, and it was totaly dead again!
Wont open central locking, so flat enough.
Am actually surprised is has gone flat, will fully charge it, but if it goes flat again, will get the battery and charging system chacked out, if the battery shows any sign of weakness then am off to Vx for a replacement.
Will be checking all the connections as well.
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Once its jump started, really needs a fair few miles to get it fully back, and thats without any electrical load such as headlights, heater fans, stero and the like. No doubt someone will quote electrical sums somewhere along the line, but I would prefer to put it on an overnight trickle charge, if possible....
Sadly not.
I was allways of the understanding that the car electrical system would run the car on its own with out the battery connected (this may well have been on older cars , and of course once the car was running.) and in theory does if the battery is flat any way.
Therefore isnt the charging system capable of running the whole car and charging the battery at the same time even with the headlights on.
Just a thought as I know someone will know the proper logic to it all.
TIA. :y
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Yup, charging system runs the car once started and the excess output runs the lights and stuff then whats left, recharges the battery...
Therefore running the car with the others loads - lights etc - off, then the more thats there for charging the battery...
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My 3.0v6 has new VX battery on it hasnt been used for about 2 mths , it just let me in the central locking yesterday mind -3*C here all day but nothing else just had it on charge overnight its fully charged now, I reckon they will go flat if not used in 2 mths normally coz the alarm jobby uses it ...so reckon there wont be much wrong with your charging system IMO :-[
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Once its jump started, really needs a fair few miles to get it fully back, and thats without any electrical load such as headlights, heater fans, stero and the like. No doubt someone will quote electrical sums somewhere along the line, but I would prefer to put it on an overnight trickle charge, if possible....
Sadly not.
I was allways of the understanding that the car electrical system would run the car on its own with out the battery connected (this may well have been on older cars , and of course once the car was running.) and in theory does if the battery is flat any way.
Therefore isnt the charging system capable of running the whole car and charging the battery at the same time even with the headlights on.
Just a thought as I know someone will know the proper logic to it all.
TIA. :y
Yes indeed Skruntie, a battery is in the system to purely restart the engine when stopped, and the alternator is quite efficient enough to keep the engine going with even 'accessory' loads on, but of course the less load there is the greater the amount of power placed in storage within the battery! 8-) 8-) 8-).
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Once its jump started, really needs a fair few miles to get it fully back, and thats without any electrical load such as headlights, heater fans, stero and the like. No doubt someone will quote electrical sums somewhere along the line, but I would prefer to put it on an overnight trickle charge, if possible....
Sadly not.
I was allways of the understanding that the car electrical system would run the car on its own with out the battery connected (this may well have been on older cars , and of course once the car was running.) and in theory does if the battery is flat any way.
Therefore isnt the charging system capable of running the whole car and charging the battery at the same time even with the headlights on.
Just a thought as I know someone will know the proper logic to it all.
TIA. :y
Yes indeed Skruntie, a battery is in the system to purely restart the engine when stopped, and the alternator is quite efficient enough to keep the engine going with even 'accessory' loads on, but of course the less load there is the greater the amount of power placed in storage within the battery! 8-) 8-) 8-).
I think you'll likely opps things up taking the battery off a modern running engine. My understanding is that the alternator needs to be loaded up, and as ECU's require a steady 12 volts rather than the 13.5/14 volts that the alternator kick out. The last car I took the battery off while it was running, was a Cortina.
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You may find that the battery is fubard :'(. If left in a discharged state for a long period the plates oxidise and prevent the battery accepting a full recharge
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If a battery is completely flat there are 2 major considerations :
1. How long has it been flat ? If a lead-acid is left in an uncharged state for more than a few days the lead start to sulphate, this wrecks a battery PDQ. A "smart" charger that gives higher voltage pulses over a very short time can sometimes fix this, but it is often time to replace the battery
2. A car electrical system has no current control, only voltage control, usualy at around 14 v. The battery "state of charge" forms the resistance that limits the amperage that flows into a battery, the higher the charge, the higher the resistance, so the current flow is reduced. A very discharged battery has a very low internal resistance. This can lead to extremely high current flow through the charging circuit, hopefully fuses will protect the alternator from damage, but there is a risk. The high current flow through the battery can lead to overheating (boiling) of the acid, and/or distortion of the plates. If they touch an internal short forms and the cell dies. This is not recoverable.
For the above reasons it is preferable that a discharged battery is charged "off car" by a dedicated charger. These have internal controls that limit the maximum current to prevent (2), and "smart" chargers have a chance of fixing (1)
A 60 amp hour battery fully discharged will take about 20 hours at 3 amp rate to recharge. If you let the car charge it up in 2 hours .. you've stuck an average of 30 amps at it !!! The maths is quite simple. But what was the "starting" current flow ... probably much higher ??
HTH
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Yup, charging system runs the car once started and the excess output runs the lights and stuff then whats left, recharges the battery...
Therefore running the car with the others loads - lights etc - off, then the more thats there for charging the battery...
Makes sence to me.
Cheers Broocie. :y
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If a battery is completely flat there are 2 major considerations :
1. How long has it been flat ? If a lead-acid is left in an uncharged state for more than a few days the lead start to sulphate, this wrecks a battery PDQ. A "smart" charger that gives higher voltage pulses over a very short time can sometimes fix this, but it is often time to replace the battery
2. A car electrical system has no current control, only voltage control, usualy at around 14 v. The battery "state of charge" forms the resistance that limits the amperage that flows into a battery, the higher the charge, the higher the resistance, so the current flow is reduced. A very discharged battery has a very low internal resistance. This can lead to extremely high current flow through the charging circuit, hopefully fuses will protect the alternator from damage, but there is a risk. The high current flow through the battery can lead to overheating (boiling) of the acid, and/or distortion of the plates. If they touch an internal short forms and the cell dies. This is not recoverable.
For the above reasons it is preferable that a discharged battery is charged "off car" by a dedicated charger. These have internal controls that limit the maximum current to prevent (2), and "smart" chargers have a chance of fixing (1)
A 60 amp hour battery fully discharged will take about 20 hours at 3 amp rate to recharge. If you let the car charge it up in 2 hours .. you've stuck an average of 30 amps at it !!! The maths is quite simple. But what was the "starting" current flow ... probably much higher ??
HTH
So even though the battery is not yet 6 months old it could be stuffed then.
How does that affect my warranty.
Also how do I know it was a 100% the day I bought it.
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If a battery is completely flat there are 2 major considerations :
1. How long has it been flat ? If a lead-acid is left in an uncharged state for more than a few days the lead start to sulphate, this wrecks a battery PDQ. A "smart" charger that gives higher voltage pulses over a very short time can sometimes fix this, but it is often time to replace the battery
2. A car electrical system has no current control, only voltage control, usualy at around 14 v. The battery "state of charge" forms the resistance that limits the amperage that flows into a battery, the higher the charge, the higher the resistance, so the current flow is reduced. A very discharged battery has a very low internal resistance. This can lead to extremely high current flow through the charging circuit, hopefully fuses will protect the alternator from damage, but there is a risk. The high current flow through the battery can lead to overheating (boiling) of the acid, and/or distortion of the plates. If they touch an internal short forms and the cell dies. This is not recoverable.
For the above reasons it is preferable that a discharged battery is charged "off car" by a dedicated charger. These have internal controls that limit the maximum current to prevent (2), and "smart" chargers have a chance of fixing (1)
A 60 amp hour battery fully discharged will take about 20 hours at 3 amp rate to recharge. If you let the car charge it up in 2 hours .. you've stuck an average of 30 amps at it !!! The maths is quite simple. But what was the "starting" current flow ... probably much higher ??
HTH
So even though the battery is not yet 6 months old it could be stuffed then.
How does that affect my warranty.
Also how do I know it was a 100% the day I bought it.
All good and relevant points...
The retailer will maintain it was 100% the day you took it away.
You thereafter used it as per the manufacturers recomendations (who's to check?)
Its now rubber ducked....
Take battery and receipt back to supplier and request/demand a replacement as its a duffer...
sorted.... :y
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If a battery is completely flat there are 2 major considerations :
1. How long has it been flat ? If a lead-acid is left in an uncharged state for more than a few days the lead start to sulphate, this wrecks a battery PDQ. A "smart" charger that gives higher voltage pulses over a very short time can sometimes fix this, but it is often time to replace the battery
2. A car electrical system has no current control, only voltage control, usualy at around 14 v. The battery "state of charge" forms the resistance that limits the amperage that flows into a battery, the higher the charge, the higher the resistance, so the current flow is reduced. A very discharged battery has a very low internal resistance. This can lead to extremely high current flow through the charging circuit, hopefully fuses will protect the alternator from damage, but there is a risk. The high current flow through the battery can lead to overheating (boiling) of the acid, and/or distortion of the plates. If they touch an internal short forms and the cell dies. This is not recoverable.
For the above reasons it is preferable that a discharged battery is charged "off car" by a dedicated charger. These have internal controls that limit the maximum current to prevent (2), and "smart" chargers have a chance of fixing (1)
A 60 amp hour battery fully discharged will take about 20 hours at 3 amp rate to recharge. If you let the car charge it up in 2 hours .. you've stuck an average of 30 amps at it !!! The maths is quite simple. But what was the "starting" current flow ... probably much higher ??
HTH
So even though the battery is not yet 6 months old it could be stuffed then.
How does that affect my warranty.
Also how do I know it was a 100% the day I bought it.
All good and relevant points...
The retailer will maintain it was 100% the day you took it away.
You thereafter used it as per the manufacturers recomendations (who's to check?)
Its now rubber ducked....
Take battery and receipt back to supplier and request/demand a replacement as its a duffer...
sorted.... :y
Dont you worry about that, I know how to be polite infront of an audiance full of customers .
Thing is it's Pentagon in Sheffield and I heard the group were having problems. So hope they are still open.
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you should be ok to take it to another pentagon dealer/garage and they should sort it, aslong as you have the reciept :y
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How do you check that its total donald ducked mine is only few months old was flat as it can be after like 2mths of non use,but did open cent locking, so ye who knows abaht batteries whats the time limit now from being fully charged to see if it holds the charge with just alarm set but not using car at all ? 2 /3 mths ? or should it be more ? :y
I'm sure they will test it before replacing it & it maybe some what damaged but it will still probably show ok !
I have one of these chargers supposed to be pretty good
http://www.vertar.com/ctek/ctek-multi-xs-3600/
supposed to help recover slightly sulphated batteries
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How do you check that its total donald ducked mine is only few months old was flat as it can be after like 2mths of non use,but did open cent locking, so ye who knows abaht batteries whats the time limit now from being fully charged to see if it holds the charge with just alarm set but not using car at all ? 2 /3 mths ? or should it be more ? :y
Nope. I would say that after a month or so, the battery would be pretty flat. The alarm, etc. will drain it slowly, but it will also naturally lose its' charge over time. Whether permanent damage is done depends on how long it has been left flat.
That charger looks good for permanent trickle charging for cars that are parked up for long periods.
Kevin
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Can the Alarm be disabledwithout causing running problems for the car?
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Once its jump started, really needs a fair few miles to get it fully back, and thats without any electrical load such as headlights, heater fans, stero and the like. No doubt someone will quote electrical sums somewhere along the line, but I would prefer to put it on an overnight trickle charge, if possible....
Sadly not.
I was allways of the understanding that the car electrical system would run the car on its own with out the battery connected (this may well have been on older cars , and of course once the car was running.) and in theory does if the battery is flat any way.
Therefore isnt the charging system capable of running the whole car and charging the battery at the same time even with the headlights on.
Just a thought as I know someone will know the proper logic to it all.
TIA. :y
Yes indeed Skruntie, a battery is in the system to purely restart the engine when stopped, and the alternator is quite efficient enough to keep the engine going with even 'accessory' loads on, but of course the less load there is the greater the amount of power placed in storage within the battery! 8-) 8-) 8-).
I think you'll likely opps things up taking the battery off a modern running engine. My understanding is that the alternator needs to be loaded up, and as ECU's require a steady 12 volts rather than the 13.5/14 volts that the alternator kick out. The last car I took the battery off while it was running, was a Cortina.
Yes agree.. I bet you could unplug the battery off an omega, and it would keep running, but I doubt the electrics would last very long, esp if you switch heavy loads on and off while reving engine etc! The voltage spikes would be fairly high at a guess!
When I worked at a car garage we had a scrap alfa (was a 2.0 Tspark with a million miles on it), I remember starting that using jump leads. Anyway, once we got it running, I went to remove the jump leads, and pulled the terminal block off the battery! Car was running for a few seconds like that with no battery attached! Chucked leads on the floor, and then just reconnected the battery (while it was running still). Nothing intresting happened though (apart from a small spark as the connection was made), it just kept ticking over! :( :P
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Well, My mate brought up his boost pack, got into the car via the key, then it took ages to get the bonnet up, latch needs adjusting. (put some WD40 on it for now)
Booster pack on, about 5 turns of starter and it fired up no probs. So will try it tommorrow and go for annother run. Engine was running/driven a total of 2 hours+
Not driven it for 3 months till today, got a faulty brake bulb connector through being parked up. Only been started twice in 3 months and one of those my mate took the car on a dumpit site run for me so no complaints really.
Fuel gauge light has just come on tonight with 507 miles on trip. Cant remember adding fuel since I last brimmed the tank, Rarely go above 50 when I use it, (not like the other car, :-X) Dont know what my ave mpg will be, but wishfull thinking if it has done 500 since brimmed. Not been driven heavy so will never know.
Brakes had rusted over but working fine. Tyres were down to 24,25,25,and 28. So all been set on a auto cutout pump at 34 psi as per Marks DTM finding on MPG ecconomy. Getting 36+ on 40 mph dual carriageway so will start doing spme monitoring. Generally gets better as speeds rise. (On the flat of course)
Nice to be back on the road as a New Year start though. :y
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First thing to do is brim the fuel tank with decent fuel. Dilute any stale fuel in the tank.
Kevin
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Hi
just been reading your thread, am i right in saying that you need to drive the car for aleast 30 miles at a steady drive for both ecu's to relearn from totally flat battery.
The battery must be good condition, to achive good output of engine and other parts.
Have you thought of using a solar pack which plugs into the cig lighter, same as used to change battery to stop memory lost :)
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Hi
just been reading your thread, am i right in saying that you need to drive the car for aleast 30 miles at a steady drive for both ecu's to relearn from totally flat battery.
The battery must be good condition, to achive good output of engine and other parts.
Have you thought of using a solar pack which plugs into the cig lighter, same as used to change battery to stop memory lost :)
Certainly on my Miggy a relay disconnects the ciggy lighter about 8 minutes afetr the key is removed and the doors shut ... so the solar plug-ins won't do a great deal unless connected directly to the battery
:(
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Hi
just been reading your thread, am i right in saying that you need to drive the car for aleast 30 miles at a steady drive for both ecu's to relearn from totally flat battery.
The battery must be good condition, to achive good output of engine and other parts.
Have you thought of using a solar pack which plugs into the cig lighter, same as used to change battery to stop memory lost :)
Certainly on my Miggy a relay disconnects the ciggy lighter about 8 minutes afetr the key is removed and the doors shut ... so the solar plug-ins won't do a great deal unless connected directly to the battery
:(
I'm pretty sure both of mine are ignition fed and die as soon as the ignition is turned off --- mini face lift.
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If some could point me in the direction of a solar panel that will cover the active items when a car is locked I would appreciate it. I wouldput a supply in just for that purpose.
TIA. :y
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I bought one of these http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/atc12v-car-battery-charger/path/
I cut off the clamps, and used one of these http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/range/guid/3434A6A5-43E8-4A2C-84A8-9E7739EDE65A
One end connected to the battery with heavy duty wire (you need 30 strand +) fitted an inline fuse (1 amp), plug secured under front bumper.
I can trickle charge the battery at any time, without lifting the bonnet.
As per MDTM, you will not damage the alternator with such a low charge.
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A while back I was thinking of fitting one of those rad twin cable jump connectors like they have on rally cars (cant remember the names but there have been a couple od posts about them)
Was coing to convert a pair of jump leads on one end to plug into the car and then as per your idea make annother connection into a trickle charger.
This is I never got round to working out wher to fit/hide it. 1 idea was to consider pointed it towards the rear of the bonnet by the passenger bonet hinge, but fit it in a place that I could access but no one could see. Will check it out one day.
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Found them
http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/battconns/battconn.php#booster
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I was thinking of fitting one of these behind the front tow loop cover so if ever I'd got a flat and couldn't open the car I could boost it easily. Also really easy if you offer anyone a jump who's flat.
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I was thinking of fitting one of these behind the front tow loop cover so if ever I'd got a flat and couldn't open the car I could boost it easily. Also really easy if you offer anyone a jump who's flat.
Yes works both ways, but saves pi$$ing about trying to get into the car after a flat battery, and my case 20 mins trying to open the bonnet single handed due to a slack cable cable (Instant with 2 people, one pushing/lifting the bonnet)
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I was thinking of fitting one of these behind the front tow loop cover so if ever I'd got a flat and couldn't open the car I could boost it easily. Also really easy if you offer anyone a jump who's flat.
Yes works both ways, but saves pi$$ing about trying to get into the car after a flat battery, and my case 20 mins trying to open the bonnet single handed due to a slack cable cable (Instant with 2 people, one pushing/lifting the bonnet)
Nothing worse than a slack cable on a cold and frosty morning ;D ;D ;D
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When I bought the car in April the guy told me he was using company transport and the Omega had been been garaged for3 months, when he went to start it the battery was flat and is son had to get in through the boot to unlock.
I then parked it up for a month whilst sorting out insurance and ended up getting in the car the same way.
Had issues with a dud battery on my GLS, which is when I started looking into the power connector thing, but on the GLS I have twin trailer sockets and I think the second socket has a permanant live (for powering a fridge etc) so I was going to get annother plug with a couple of leads and claps just to add power for the central locking. But maybe worth considering to add a trickele charger when not in use.
Where I live at the mo I stuffed for chargeing the car, when I move there wont be a problem for that at all, so will be worth a mod of some form. In fact a live connector at the back for trickle charging would be easier.
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....... In fact a live connector at the back for trickle charging would be easier.
Caravan permanant live at the back of the boot would do that for you ... after you've put a fuse in. :y
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I bought one of these http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/atc12v-car-battery-charger/path/
I use a similar arrangement on my kit car when it's been out of use for a while. Actually, I used an old mains adaptor that happened to give the right voltage and it plugs into a permanently live lighter socket on the car. I even added an ammeter so I can see the state of the battery.
A very cost effective solution, and given the problems getting into an omega when deadlocked probably a wise move to provide a hidden connector somewhere to revive it.
These aren't quite as effective as the more expensive "optimate" style intelligent chargers in that I wouldn't leave one connected to an unused battery for months on end. Certainly for something to connect to a car occasionally when laid up for a couple of weeks at a time it's hard to beat.
As said, for those with a caravan connector, just chop the cable and put a male 12s plug on the end. Job done.
Kevin
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I bought one of these http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/atc12v-car-battery-charger/path/
I use a similar arrangement on my kit car when it's been out of use for a while. Actually, I used an old mains adaptor that happened to give the right voltage and it plugs into a permanently live lighter socket on the car. I even added an ammeter so I can see the state of the battery.
A very cost effective solution, and given the problems getting into an omega when deadlocked probably a wise move to provide a hidden connector somewhere to revive it.
These aren't quite as effective as the more expensive "optimate" style intelligent chargers in that I wouldn't leave one connected to an unused battery for months on end. Certainly for something to connect to a car occasionally when laid up for a couple of weeks at a time it's hard to beat.
As said, for those with a caravan connector, just chop the cable and put a male 12s plug on the end. Job done.
Kevin
Never left on for long periods, I put it on a timer switch if I'm going away for say a couple of weeks.
If the battery ends up so that I can't get into the car, I can plug a better charger into it, just to open the doors.