Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: feeutfo on 17 January 2009, 13:03:21
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been harbouring this idea for a while, personally i don't like the way the omega bushes allow so much movement in the steering wheel,ie pulling/twisting the wheel in your hands, even with new heavy duty bushes pressed in to wishbones by Marks dtm fitted and torqued correctly, there is an improvement, but it still bothers me as its still there. So....
Fitted these to a Volvo C70 t5 turbo yesterday, seems a far better way of going about it, not to mention easier to fit, jack up to jack down 55 mins. looking at it and driving the car tells me there is far less movement in the bushes.
But the whole thing is a completely different design, obviously. So will either need a complete re work of the sub frame by removing the brackets and drilling through to weld in a spacer to take the 65nm torque, angle tighten 120 degrees and the forces from the wheel,
not the best. Or far better, fitting of another sub frame that fits with this design of wish bone bracket already incorporated. Does such a thing exist in the GM range? maybe new shape vectra or signum, monaro/vxr maybe?
pics below.... :y
the old C70 wb, note square blocks to bolt through and smaller bushes
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/16012009416.jpg)
new one fitted, not so clear a pic.
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/16012009414.jpg)
a closer look at the bracket to sub frame, the studs showing through the square blocks are the ends of the bolts which bolt through from the engine side, this involved jacking the engine to give clearance but was easy as there's enough movement in the engine mounts when bolted up.
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/16012009415.jpg)
what do you think??? :-/
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well, a quick google does not look hopefull. From what i can tell, most suitable candidates look to have similar style wishbones to the omega, but with smaller bushes.
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I changed mine last year and kept the old w/bones with the intention of getting poly bushes made up and fitted in readiness for the next change. Now I can't find the old w/bones !! :(
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I think poly bushes is the easiest route, and cheapest to go down and would remove alot of the excessive movement and will last alot longer.
I'm sure someone on here once was going to have some made and then get a price for the club.........but i cant remember who... :-?
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Can,t recall but are these the ones from BMW that will fit ours
http://www.priracing.com/product.php/1341/1/bmw-e36---front---control-arm-lower---rear-bushes
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Can,t recall but are these the ones from BMW that will fit ours
http://www.priracing.com/product.php/1341/1/bmw-e36---front---control-arm-lower---rear-bushes
I haven't a clue on that one :-/
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polly bushes, as i understand them, are the opposite end of the bush spectrum to omega bushes. On the omega you have almost zero feed back from the road due to the very soft nature of the standard bushes which can only degrade with age, but forget the deterioration for a minute.
Assume we have a brand new mig all tip top and working. In my experience i dont think it will possibly eradicate all pulling on the wheel due to the comfort level designed in. By that i mean complete isolation from the road surface, no road noise, minimal shock transmitted to the car by bumps and road imperfections. Fine for comfort of passengers but, it seems, a bit of mare for the driver, namely me. Because the bushes are so soft they deflect easily, tram lines in lane 1 of most motorways caused by lorrys being an obvious example. Im fairly sure youll never get rid of any reaction to this sort of imperfection in the road, and nor would you want to . But for me the omega is too readilly pulled about, requiring constant correction.
Then, on the other end of the dial we have poly bushes. At the Wheels in motion knowledge day a gent attending, who's name escaped me, had had some made. And reported zero pulling, but when asked"are they harsh?" he replied yes, very, iirc.
....to me, neither are totally acceptable. A compromise no matter how you look at it. You can have one or the other to varying degrees. But never have total accuracy without a harsh feel.
So what to do?
I have spoken to an omega owner who traded for the new shape vectra when it came out, he reported zero pulling and a comfortable yet accurate ride. From what i can tell by searching google images of vectra/signum/vxr wishbones, they are a similar design to the omega, but with considerably smaller bushes.
The C70 seems similarly accurate to the vectra, with no real harshnes. This design,as pictured, seems desirable but not necessary if the vectra/omega owner is to be beleived.
I dont suppose for one minute another vx wishbone with smaller bushes would fit, vecta maybe?
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you could always poly bush them, did these myself
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa297/razzo_photo/DSCF0424-1-1.jpg)
or you maybe able to get them made up here
www.custompolyurethane.co.uk
its a great mod if you like enthusiastic driving but its not cheap :y
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you could always poly bush them, did these myself
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa297/razzo_photo/DSCF0424-1-1.jpg)
or you maybe able to get them made up here
www.custompolyurethane.co.uk
its a great mod if you like enthusiastic driving but its not cheap :y
I follow this thread with much interest, as my car suffers from the same symptoms as Mr chrisgixer has been talking about. Your pictures shows the horizontal bush changed to a poly bush, but what did you do with the vertical bush at the other end of the arm? :-/
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i left the vertical bush as standard but you could change it if you want to
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thanks for the pics Razzo, interesting.
Couple of questions.
Is the side harsh, ie vibey, rumbley, road noise?
How do they cope with the rotation of the arm as the suspension moves? There seems to be no "twist" in the material.
If they rotate in the wishbone i wonder if this would wear the bush? Could a bearing be inserted?
And of course, how much?
Cheers.
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thanks for the pics Razzo, interesting.
Couple of questions.
Is the side harsh, ie vibey, rumbley, road noise?
How do they cope with the rotation of the arm as the suspension moves? There seems to be no "twist" in the material.
If they rotate in the wishbone i wonder if this would wear the bush? Could a bearing be inserted?
And of course, how much?
Cheers.
ride is not harsh but you get more info fed up through steering wheel & feels alot tighter than standard bushes
Don't get any vibrations , but left rear bush in arm as standard as i was told changing it would cause more vibration
No more rumbling or road noise over standard bushings
Copes with arm movement very well. The crush tube is not bonded to the inside of the bush & the bush does not rotate in its housing. As the bolt is tightened the crush tube is clamped & the bush articulates around the tube which has a ground finish, reducing wear rate
Took it to the WIM meet last year & mine & Paul's ( VX1 ) were the only 2 cars Tony could work on iirc
As to cost i bought the round polyurethane bar which comes in 300mm lengths, had it cut & machined to size & had the tubes made to size from stainless steel, so all in all i ended up with 5 bushes for around £200 & the steering is as good today as when i first fitted them
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I fitted poly bushes to a friends Vectra GSI, the ride is no more harsh or noisey but the steering is sharper/move responsive.
You can get different poly hardness too just to confuse things a little more.
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hmm, interesting. In all honesty i would rather stick to a traditional bush set up of some sort. Not really sure why. Wonder, if poly is the answer,why its not use in production?But if non can be found then polys it will have to be by the sound of it.
I alreay have heavy duty Meyle bushes.
Is there really no firmer, non poly, alternative?
Anyone?
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shameless bump knowing Marks DTM is on line.
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Lol
A few things to consider......the front bush will actualy be providing a level of camber correction during loaded cornering...
As for a firmer bush.....BMW M5?
Its a triangular bush and pretty sold, it might be the best compromise.
As for the totaly different wishbine setup, dont go there, there is a lot of maths and work that goes into such designs!
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Lol
A few things to consider......the front bush will actualy be providing a level of camber correction during loaded cornering...
As for a firmer bush.....BMW M5?
Its a triangular bush and pretty sold, it might be the best compromise.
As for the totaly different wishbine setup, dont go there, there is a lot of maths and work that goes into such designs!
Any suggestions for a supplier for m5 bushes? Presumeably not a beamer stealer due to price?
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Euro Car parts.....
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Euro Car parts.....
Wow that easy, ok ill bung an old wishbone in the boot and offer up the m 5 jobs in the shop to double check.
Er... Dont suppose the magic press is ready yet? ::)
Ok, pushing my luck now.... :-)
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Euro Car parts.....
Wow that easy, ok ill bung an old wishbone in the boot and offer up the m 5 jobs in the shop to double check.
Er... Dont suppose the magic press is ready yet? ::)
Ok, pushing my luck now.... :-)
MagicPress.Queue.Insert(Kevin Wood);
;)
Kevin
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Euro Car parts.....
Had a check 21.95 + vat from them Not Bad but just the cost of getting them fitted to a set of wishbones.
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Euro Car parts.....
Had a check 21.95 + vat from them Not Bad but just the cost of getting them fitted to a set of wishbones.
With a press its easy.........
So do these BMW M5 bushes actually fit then???? As these are also available in poly ;)
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Euro Car parts.....
Had a check 21.95 + vat from them Not Bad but just the cost of getting them fitted to a set of wishbones.
Any i.d. with those Steve? And is that for a set for the car or each bush?
Had a chat with a guy at Euro car parts and he needs a bit more info. Found these numbers. On another forum.
1993 Bmw 535i m5 (e34)
Bmw part no.31122226528
Lemforder part no. 13281
But not sure if that number is a box set of bushes for a "side" on the car or an individual bush(large horizontal?) bearing in mind the bm has control arms not wishbones.
Can anyone varify?
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Yes they fit and no the poly equivalents wont
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Euro Car parts.....
Had a check 21.95 + vat from them Not Bad but just the cost of getting them fitted to a set of wishbones.
Any i.d. with those Steve? And is that for a set for the car or each bush?
Had a chat with a guy at Euro car parts and he needs a bit more info. Found these numbers. On another forum.
1993 Bmw 535i m5 (e34)
Bmw part no.31122226528
Lemforder part no. 13281
But not sure if that number is a box set of bushes for a "side" on the car or an individual bush(large horizontal?) bearing in mind the bm has control arms not wishbones.
Can anyone varify?
From my chat with the Leicester one told him that it was an E36 he had a look and as you say there are 2 control are think the ones he looked at where for the back one which is the one with the bend.
Think that is the price for 2 but will call back and check and update.
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Euro Car parts.....
Had a check 21.95 + vat from them Not Bad but just the cost of getting them fitted to a set of wishbones.
Any i.d. with those Steve? And is that for a set for the car or each bush?
Had a chat with a guy at Euro car parts and he needs a bit more info. Found these numbers. On another forum.
1993 Bmw 535i m5 (e34)
Bmw part no.31122226528
Lemforder part no. 13281
But not sure if that number is a box set of bushes for a "side" on the car or an individual bush(large horizontal?) bearing in mind the bm has control arms not wishbones.
Can anyone varify?
From my chat with the Leicester one told him that it was an E36 he had a look and as you say there are 2 control are think the ones he looked at where for the back one which is the one with the bend.
Think that is the price for 2 but will call back and check and update.
like this i hope :-?
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/e34uparm.jpg)
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Thats the one by the sound of it :y :y.Will check to see if price is for two.
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We had a discussion in Ukrainian Opel Club forum about that stuff. One bushing from E32 may be used in Omegas. On e32 they have various part numbers for different engines, the larger the engine - the stiffer the bushing ;)
i'll check it out and post numbers this evening, as soon as i get home. there was all the bmw original BMW numbers, as well as Lemforder PN-s and dimensions in that topic...
BTW, same bushing may be used in E34 ;)
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This BMW M5 E34 bush fits:
http://webcat.zf-trading.com/index.asp?LKZ=D&PKW=1&SPR=4&EINSPNR=32,14,1632,1614
Inner Diameter [mm]: 14
Outer Diameter [mm]: 58
Lemforder part number: 13281 01
looks like this:
(http://webcat.zf-trading.com/se230_image/00351328101.gif)
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looks the same but cant see the sizes. just to be certain.... is this any good, just looks firmer with the extra insert... 10531 01 :-[
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/00351053101.jpg)
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It fits, I have fitted these in the past.
Solid rubber....3 large ribs
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This BMW M5 E34 bush fits:
http://webcat.zf-trading.com/index.asp?LKZ=D&PKW=1&SPR=4&EINSPNR=32,14,1632,1614
Inner Diameter [mm]: 14
Outer Diameter [mm]: 58
Lemforder part number: 13281 01
looks like this:
(http://webcat.zf-trading.com/se230_image/00351328101.gif)
Thought I looked at that bush B4 I got the Meryle bushes
Dropped the idea as the hole is off-centre, Tony at WIM said it would make a difference to the set-up when I spoke to him at the open day
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It is indeed about 2mm or so off centre....not convinced it will make that much difference
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tempted to try the plastic insert off centre jobs tbh. I presume the hole is further away from the plastic to make room for it?
Car needs set up again anyway after i did the rear bushes. 2 mill per side on the front cant make much difference surely? Provided the set up can still be achieved with the off centre hole?
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will the off centre hole make pressing difficult?
Just thinking of the drifts and if they fit in the hole to allow the outside edge to line up?
Just got 2 with the plastic insert from euro car parts, had them on the shelf!
Ps thanks for the lemforder link, well handy, they knew the numbers straight away. :-)
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got these today, euro car parts, their part number;618-11-0160
the green one in the pic is , i beleive, not the correct part number as it is 2 mill off center and has a fraction less rubber than the white one which is only 1 mill off center. The third is the breaked original in the wishbone obviously... ::)
I took both to give me the chance to have a measure up while they order another matching pair, and i will swap these for them tommorrow, which they are happy to do as "they are quite popular".... :y
Should add, they are as far as i can tell the correct size, when measured by with my buggered old vernia gauges by feal ... :)
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/26012009424.jpg)
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got these today, euro car parts, their part number;618-11-0160
the green one in the pic is , i beleive, not the correct part number as it is 2 mill off center and has a fraction less rubber than the white one which is only 1 mill off center. The third is the breaked original in the wishbone obviously... ::)
I took both to give me the chance to have a measure up while they order another matching pair, and i will swap these for them tommorrow, which they are happy to do as "they are quite popular".... :y
Should add, they are as far as i can tell the correct size, when measured by with my buggered old vernia gauges by feal ... :)
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/26012009424.jpg)
As already said, we know that as I have fitted some in the past :y
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got these today, euro car parts, their part number;618-11-0160
the green one in the pic is , i beleive, not the correct part number as it is 2 mill off center and has a fraction less rubber than the white one which is only 1 mill off center. The third is the breaked original in the wishbone obviously... ::)
I took both to give me the chance to have a measure up while they order another matching pair, and i will swap these for them tommorrow, which they are happy to do as "they are quite popular".... :y
Should add, they are as far as i can tell the correct size, when measured by with my buggered old vernia gauges by feal ... :)
(http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/26012009424.jpg)
As already said, we know that as I have fitted some in the past :y
Had me belt and braces on at the time.... ;) :-*
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Lol, we spent a few weeks trawling through the formal drawings to check all the dimensions!
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OK, rear verticals next(cant multi task)presume less critical, but do you have a "stiffest" recommendation for the other pair?
going in to euro car parts tomorrow anyway.
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Standard....you want some flex somewhere to absorb bump steer!