Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: edwardmickey on 12 November 2007, 21:05:55
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Rear wheel drive cars have many advantages, we all love our Omegas here!
In the wet, particularly on roundabouts, I take it extra careful so as to avoid any oversteering.
I had a nasty oversteering experience a few days ago when I applied a little portion of right hand pedal a bit too early exiting a roundabout - causing the rear to slide away towards the nearside .... I managed to recover by steering to the offside while taking my foot off the pedal. The result was quite quick and I lived to save an expensive repair bill.
Now was this a fluke or did I do the right thing? What is the correct thing to do?
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Rear wheel drive cars have many advantages, we all love our Omegas here!
In the wet, particularly on roundabouts, I take it extra careful so as to avoid any oversteering.
I had a nasty oversteering experience a few days ago when I applied a little portion of right hand pedal a bit too early exiting a roundabout - causing the rear to slide away towards the nearside .... I managed to recover by steering to the offside while taking my foot off the pedal. The result was quite quick and I lived to save an expensive repair bill.
Now was this a fluke or did I do the right thing? What is the correct thing to do?
Known as applying opposite lock and the correct procedure. You do not have to take your foot off the pedal - keeping it on can give the sort of power slide so loved by Jeremy Clarkson et al. Taking your foot off the pedal, however, is the instinctive reaction and safest if you're not an experienced "sports" driver. :)
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Rear wheel drive cars have many advantages, we all love our Omegas here!
In the wet, particularly on roundabouts, I take it extra careful so as to avoid any oversteering.
I had a nasty oversteering experience a few days ago when I applied a little portion of right hand pedal a bit too early exiting a roundabout - causing the rear to slide away towards the nearside .... I managed to recover by steering to the offside while taking my foot off the pedal. The result was quite quick and I lived to save an expensive repair bill.
Now was this a fluke or did I do the right thing? What is the correct thing to do?
No.
The correct thing to do is buy an alfa romeo :y
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:)Instinct served you well, that's about right. When you get a taste for it you'll do as you stated but with power on to carry the drift then you can almost steer with the throttle. Not to be advised for obvious reasons but can get you out of trouble sometimes. ::)
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have you turned the TC off ??? if so TURN IT BACK ON !!
Traction control will greatly assist in preventing over eager application of right foot !! :)
The TC light on the dash should be OFF .. if the TC light is ON you have NO traction control .. ie default is TC working !!
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Rear wheel drive cars have many advantages, we all love our Omegas here!
In the wet, particularly on roundabouts, I take it extra careful so as to avoid any oversteering.
I had a nasty oversteering experience a few days ago when I applied a little portion of right hand pedal a bit too early exiting a roundabout - causing the rear to slide away towards the nearside .... I managed to recover by steering to the offside while taking my foot off the pedal. The result was quite quick and I lived to save an expensive repair bill.
Now was this a fluke or did I do the right thing? What is the correct thing to do?
No.
The correct thing to do is buy an alfa, romeo :y
his name's Edward!
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lifting off the power can cause weight shift towards the front, hence can further unsettle the car. So, ideally, not letting completely off the power, but controlling the power :y
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have you turned the TC off ??? if so TURN IT BACK ON !!
Traction control will greatly assist in preventing over eager application of right foot !! :)
The TC light on the dash should be OFF .. if the TC light is ON you have NO traction control .. ie default is TC working !!
TC is on!!
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have you turned the TC off ??? if so TURN IT BACK ON !!
Traction control will greatly assist in preventing over eager application of right foot !! :)
The TC light on the dash should be OFF .. if the TC light is ON you have NO traction control .. ie default is TC working !!
TC is on!!
That sounds as if it needs checking out! take the car somewhere with alot of space ie a deserted car park in the wet and try to make the back breakaway you should feel the tc cutting power to the rear wheels it's quite noticeable,
the correct way to negotiate bends with rear wheel drive is "opposite lock" steering this allows the power to be kept on without ending up spinning out however I would not use it on a busy highway even if you become experienced at it
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have you turned the TC off ??? if so TURN IT BACK ON !!
Traction control will greatly assist in preventing over eager application of right foot !! :)
The TC light on the dash should be OFF .. if the TC light is ON you have NO traction control .. ie default is TC working !!
TC is on!!
That sounds as if it needs checking out! take the car somewhere with alot of space ie a deserted car park in the wet and try to make the back breakaway you should feel the tc cutting power to the rear wheels it's quite noticeable,
the correct way to negotiate bends with rear wheel drive is "opposite lock" steering this allows the power to be kept on without ending up spinning out however I would not use it on a busy highway even if you become experienced at it
I know that TC is on and fully working; the amber dash light comes on now and then when I floor it!
I only seem to get the oversteer when I dab the accelerator early during very sharp bend exits such as roundabouts when the road is wet. I managed to source 4x235 tyres - fully fitted for £200 all in, several months ago; don't want to sound ungrateful, that was a huge saving. But budget tyres have their drawbacks and I have no doubt that they ain't helping me under these conditions.
I just wanted to know the correct way to deal with oversteer on the odd occasion that I get into difficulty. Keeping the throttle on seems alien; public roads are clearly inappropriate places to test this out!!!!
I'll be the first to admit that I drive my car hard. But, as the saying goes..... 'power is nothing without control.'
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That sounds as if it needs checking out! take the car somewhere with alot of space ie a deserted car park in the wet and try to make the back breakaway you should feel the tc cutting power to the rear wheels it's quite noticeable,
the correct way to negotiate bends with rear wheel drive is "opposite lock" steering this allows the power to be kept on without ending up spinning out however I would not use it on a busy highway even if you become experienced at it
Sshhhh....Don't let Mark hear you saying that. ;D
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That sounds as if it needs checking out! take the car somewhere with alot of space ie a deserted car park in the wet and try to make the back breakaway you should feel the tc cutting power to the rear wheels it's quite noticeable,
the correct way to negotiate bends with rear wheel drive is "opposite lock" steering this allows the power to be kept on without ending up spinning out however I would not use it on a busy highway even if you become experienced at it
Sshhhh....Don't let Mark hear you saying that. ;D
:o ;)
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Best way to learn is to practice......
Snow is not so far away now (was snowing here earlier, turned to sleet/rain quite quickly) then find a large carpark and start to play. Saves paying £100 per corner for tyres...
Or, if dry, a large dry carpark and no hard jaggy sticky out things like lamp posts or fences or cars or people.... Ot CCTV camera's....
Decide you don't really need your rear tyres as you have new ones on order.
Stop car, apply full lock of choice (normally full right as per roundabouts, but change is always fun) then engage first gear SLOWLY and then GENTLY accelerate.
Continue to accelerate and enjoy the traction of the tyres.... Eventually you will reach a speed such that the rear tries to break away. Do not steer out (opposite lock) but simply gently release/reapply accelerator pedal so that, on release, the rear falls back into line and on further application, it steps out again.
Now try with TC switched off.....
See the difference....
You now have a rudimentary power slide similar to Top Gear etc except that you are still on full lock.
Learn to feel whats happening to the car through the cheeks of your harris and apply/remove power to suit.
Once happy what you are doing, introduce some opposite lock and combine with power on/off tequnique...
PS - on second thoughts, find a disused airfield with large runoffs rather than the local Tesco in cas it all goes Pete Tong...
However, back to original Q, seems like you have the basics there, just need practice and a wee bit more practice.... :y
Once finished, examine the rear tyres and marvel at how they now look like old style thruppeny bits...... ;D ;D
stay safe.... ;)
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Stay safe is the key, and also (try) and stay legal ;)
I remember hitting a bend way to fast in my facelift.. I had maria in the car too ::) .. it handled it surprisingly well, but I had to correct the rear end once or twice..
Of course, I looked and acted like I was fuly in control at all times ;D
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lifting off the power can cause weight shift towards the front, hence can further unsettle the car. So, ideally, not letting completely off the power, but controlling the power :y
The same as braking on corners at speed...
The more it happens the better you can control it. Don't steer in to it to far though or you will end up in a wall. Timing is crucial, but is alot more easier than it sounds. I regularly "get the back end out" cos I know where my cars limits are exactly, so know what to expect. Oversteer can be fun if you know what to expect and know what to do. Understeer on the other hand is a bitch!
(on a private test track, of course ;))
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have you turned the TC off ??? if so TURN IT BACK ON !!
TC only works by detecting slip of either of the rear wheels by speed differential. It doesn't detect nor correct oversteer. If you throw the car into a corner with far too much power on the inside rear wheel will unload and spin straight away and the TC will indeed cut power before an oversteer develops. In fact, in this instance, the spinning inside rear wheel does a good job of limiting the torque to the outside wheel and will probably prevent the whole back end braking away unless you're "doing a clarkson" with the throttle pedal or you have a limited slip diff.
With gentle acceleration and cornering, perhaps on a slippery surface, the back end can get quite wayward without a large speed differential between the two back wheels (since they have both run out of traction - hence the slide) and TC will be none the wiser.
TC also backs off the power rather quickly IMHO, although only with quite a bit of power on in the first place. As mentioned, a rapid lift-off is just as bad has putting too much power on in the first place. Smoothness in your response and not panicking is key. As Hotel21 says, that comes from practicing at Tesco's car park a skid pan.
.. Just don't ever think you can rely on TC to get / keep you out of trouble.
Kevin
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I'll be the first to admit that I drive my car hard. But, as the saying goes..... 'power is nothing without control.'
i don’t drive my car too hard at the moment but i have it sideways all the time lol if its wet its hard (mentally more than physically ::) to keep it in a straight line!
its handy to practice as when it happens and your not expecting it you know what to do without thinking. saved me a few times even in my fwd car when, if i didn’t know what i was doing i would of crashed (and died one of the occasions).
don’t practice where other people could get injured though, spinning is almost guaranteed when your learning, even after you have an idea of whet your doing! lol
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have you turned the TC off ??? if so TURN IT BACK ON !!
TC only works by detecting slip of either of the rear wheels by speed differential. It doesn't detect nor correct oversteer. If you throw the car into a corner with far too much power on the inside rear wheel will unload and spin straight away and the TC will indeed cut power before an oversteer develops. In fact, in this instance, the spinning inside rear wheel does a good job of limiting the torque to the outside wheel and will probably prevent the whole back end braking away unless you're "doing a clarkson" with the throttle pedal or you have a limited slip diff.
With gentle acceleration and cornering, perhaps on a slippery surface, the back end can get quite wayward without a large speed differential between the two back wheels (since they have both run out of traction - hence the slide) and TC will be none the wiser.
TC also backs off the power rather quickly IMHO, although only with quite a bit of power on in the first place. As mentioned, a rapid lift-off is just as bad has putting too much power on in the first place. Smoothness in your response and not panicking is key. As Hotel21 says, that comes from practicing at Tesco's car park a skid pan.
.. Just don't ever think you can rely on TC to get / keep you out of trouble.
Kevin
Agreed -- it's not stability control, so it doesn't monitor things like the yaw and pitch of the body, nor the steering input. All it will do is try to prevent the rear wheels spinning under power, and it's pretty crude at that IMO. Personally I find it a hindrance and much prefer it off. My right foot serves as a much better traction control device ;)
I think your main problem is the cheapy tyres. I had Kwik Fit specials on mine when I bought it, and it was a nightmare to drive in the wet. I remember coming off a roundabout once and the back end stepped out, I ended up drifting it for about 30 or 40 metres trying to gently bring it back into line, and that was me driving sedately :o. It's one thing enjoying controlled drifting at the right time/place, it's quite another having to deal with it every time you apply more than 10% throttle! I done my utmost to wear those tyres out (including copious amounts of donuts in the Knockhill car park :D) then replaced them with Michelin Pilots -- much more expensive, but cheaper than writing your car off!
BTW as mentioned by TB and some others, snapping the throttle shut is the instinctive reaction that will be fine at small slide angles and lower speeds, but I wouldn't recommend it if the car gets really out of line. You can then experience lift-off oversteer due to the weight shift, where the fronts suddenly grip much more than the rears, meaning that even though the rears are no longer being asked to grip in anything more than the lateral direction, the momentum and lack of weight can cause the rear to spin round past the point you can catch it. A gentle reduction of power while counter-steering is the best approach, and it should tuck back in nice and smoothly.
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.....that and the fact that you then have engine breaking at the back.
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I crashed a mate's Shogun last week when it all went a slip sliding away on a country road. Started to slide on a mild LH bend , tried to get it back then it went the other way, spun 180 and ended up in a hedge. :-[
Cost him £400 in T cut to put it right.
It was raining slightly and the darn car was twitchy as hell. I blame the tyres as i've never had a problem like it before in any other car on that road. Horrible thing to drive.
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I crashed a mate's Shogun last week when it all went a slip sliding away on a country road. Started to slide on a mild LH bend , tried to get it back then it went the other way, spun 180 and ended up in a hedge. :-[
Cost him £400 in T cut to put it right.
It was raining slightly and the darn car was twitchy as hell. I blame the tyres as i've never had a problem like it before in any other car on that road. Horrible thing to drive.
Even with 4WD? :o
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I crashed a mate's Shogun last week
Cost him £400.
:o he had to pay when u crashed it? thats a bit shit.
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Cost him £400 in T cut to put it right.
:o
Shogun's have got a really really bad turning circle, crap MPG, have serious engine problems if not maintained to a sky high standard... I'd still have the 2.8TD wideboy shape though. :y
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Probably doesn't help that it has a centre of gravity almost as high as the moon, so once it starts to get out of shape every correction creates a pendulum effect that is very difficult to keep under control.
Chelsea tractors should stick to the fields where their poor roadholding is unlikely to be an issue!
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Probably doesn't help that it has a centre of gravity almost as high as the moon, so once it starts to get out of shape every correction creates a pendulum effect that is very difficult to keep under control.
Omega or Shogun?
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Stay safe is the key, and also (try) and stay legal ;)
I remember hitting a bend way to fast in my facelift.. I had maria in the car too ::) .. it handled it surprisingly well, but I had to correct the rear end once or twice..
Of course, I looked and acted like I was fuly in control at all times ;D
Those those somewhat suspect tyres you have on the rear ::)