Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: JesterRT on 14 November 2007, 18:55:36
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...SWMBO has been on for a while about getting a radiator in our bathroom, so during some other work I had a plumber doing they put the tails in the bathroom ready to take the radiator (needed to tile before it went on which is why he left it at that).
I've come to drain my heating system to fit the radiator and I'm struggling. I've got a retro fitted heating system (ie after the house was built, house is circa 1958). Heating system is about 5 year old I think, but I've only moved in a year ago. Anyway, it's a back boiler and I've got a cold water expansion tank in the loft. I've also got an immersion heater in a cupboard upstairs.
From what I've done in the past (and read on the 'net) I've stopped the header tank from refilling and I found two radiators downstairs with drain valves on, and opened both of them, and not a drop came out. :-/ Not sure what to try next. As it happens I've already taken off every other radiator upstairs, so there shouldn't be much water up there. They were pretty sludged up. I figure that the downstairs radiators are the same way, and perhaps the valves are blocked up. Not knowing what to try next I thought if I emptied enough water out the pipework upstairs then perhaps I could get away with fitting the new radiator anyway, so I started draining water from where an upstairs radiator used to be...
I've probably drained about 20-30 litres of water now, filling a bucket slowly and emptying each by hand. If the header tank isn't filling, the water to the house is now turned off, taps opened and nothing coming out, hot water tank empty, boiler switched off, water pump switched off... where the heck's the water coming from?!!
Anyone offer any words of advice (that don't involve ringing a plumber?!!!!!)
Thanks in advance!!!!!!!
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Only thing i can say......
The heating and hot water is seperate systems......so no need to drain hot water tank.
The only obvious thing i can think of, is you have turned of the header for the cylinder and not the header tank for the central heating, so you are emptying that tank.
I spose the rads downstairs could be on a sperate circuit.....hence why no water is coming out.....coz its already empty :-/
Boilerman is the one to PM.....he's the only heating blokey on here i know, but apologies if there are others :y
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...SWMBO has been on for a while about getting a radiator in our bathroom, so during some other work I had a plumber doing they put the tails in the bathroom ready to take the radiator (needed to tile before it went on which is why he left it at that).
I've come to drain my heating system to fit the radiator and I'm struggling. I've got a retro fitted heating system (ie after the house was built, house is circa 1958). Heating system is about 5 year old I think, but I've only moved in a year ago. Anyway, it's a back boiler and I've got a cold water expansion tank in the loft. I've also got an immersion heater in a cupboard upstairs.
From what I've done in the past (and read on the 'net) I've stopped the header tank from refilling and I found two radiators downstairs with drain valves on, and opened both of them, and not a drop came out. :-/ Not sure what to try next. As it happens I've already taken off every other radiator upstairs, so there shouldn't be much water up there. They were pretty sludged up. I figure that the downstairs radiators are the same way, and perhaps the valves are blocked up. Not knowing what to try next I thought if I emptied enough water out the pipework upstairs then perhaps I could get away with fitting the new radiator anyway, so I started draining water from where an upstairs radiator used to be...
I've probably drained about 20-30 litres of water now, filling a bucket slowly and emptying each by hand. If the header tank isn't filling, the water to the house is now turned off, taps opened and nothing coming out, hot water tank empty, boiler switched off, water pump switched off... where the heck's the water coming from?!!
Anyone offer any words of advice (that don't involve ringing a plumber?!!!!!)
Thanks in advance!!!!!!!
http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/contents.html#Hosted
Have a look mate, scroll on the page to heating, hope it helps
:y :y
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Cheers TD...
The downstairs rads are drop-downs (pipes drop from the ceiling), and opening the air bleed valves sees water fly out, so they must be full.
I've only one tank in the loft and it's empty. Water supply to the house is off. There's no radiators upstairs (all removed during the decoration I'm doing at the moment). I've continued to drain what must now be nearly 50 litres in total.
Still at a complete loss....
...more confusing than the jobs I've done on the 'meega! :D
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Cheers TD...
The downstairs rads are drop-downs (pipes drop from the ceiling), and opening the air bleed valves sees water fly out, so they must be full.
I've only one tank in the loft and it's empty. Water supply to the house is off. There's no radiators upstairs (all removed during the decoration I'm doing at the moment). I've continued to drain what must now be nearly 50 litres in total.
Still at a complete loss....
...more confusing than the jobs I've done on the 'meega! :D
Ah rite.....soz i read in your original post nothing came outa the rads downstairs.....
Ive definately have 2 tanks......one for rads, one for hot water......
So i probably dont know what im talking about and you have a completely different type of system ;D :D
So havent a clue then, soz :(
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Keep draining mate, if your heating header tank is empty and there is deffo no water getting into it then it must be water that is still in your system, the heating is not fed from any other water supply apart from your heating header tank, have a look at the link i sent you and see what system set up you have.
:-/ :-/
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That's the half the problem I think TD - the proper drain valves on the downstairs rads when fully open don't produce one drop of water. Open the air valve on the same radiator and you get soaked - loads of pressure there.
...now drained around 60 litres. :-? Where the hell's this stuff coming from... NO rads upstairs, NO water in header tank (unless it's buried in the chimney, next door or hidden somewhere else.
Slowly losing the will...
Would call the guy that fitted the pipework for the new radiator in the bathroom, but the job over-ran, pricing was suspect, labour was charged by the day, etc, etc - don't want to see/speak to him again :-/
Read through the web-pages, but I'm still not really any the wiser. I thought perhaps I had a vented system. I don't think it's closed - I'd be suprised. There's nowhere to read a pressure dial (that I can find). Back-boiler's a bit old-school as I understand, and if it's 5 yrs old then I'm suprised it was even installed.
Thanks for the link though ;)
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What size is you pipework on the system, is it 8-10mm or 15mm, do you know for sure you have drained 60 lites, you will be supprised how much water is in a heating system, your rads are fed from your header tank in the loft, if nothing coming out of the drain valves at the bottom of the rads they will be blocked with the sludge, this sludge settles when the system is off, or the sludge will be what has ran from you header tank that builds up over time.
I know it dont help mate, check there are no water feeds going to your boiler, but there cannot be if you have the header tank.
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15mm pipework. 50/60l is an estimate, but I know it's a fair bit. It's a decent sized bucket and I've emptied it loads of times...
Looking like a plumber will be on his way in the near future to keep SWMBO happy (and I'll watch what he does and take notes ;D)
Thanks for all the pointers/help/ideas!
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Well....i might be totally wrong.....but
I still think you must have a header tank for the central heating......as where does the water go when heating on....i mean if your system is full when cold.....when the rads are lovely and hot.....water expands....so has to go somewhere.....it normally gets forced back up into the header tank...
As said could be totally wrong on your system......but just my mind trying to think where the water goes when it expands :-/
Dont spose you got 2 lofts ;D
I only ask coz......ive got 2 lofts.....and header tanks were in different lofts ( until i had one moved, to gain more hot water pressure )
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15mm pipework. 50/60l is an estimate, but I know it's a fair bit. It's a decent sized bucket and I've emptied it loads of times...
Looking like a plumber will be on his way in the near future to keep SWMBO happy (and I'll watch what he does and take notes ;D)
Thanks for all the pointers/help/ideas!
Keep us posted mate, interesting to see where all you water is coming from.
:-/ :-/
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Haha - 2 lofts :) Nah - it's a bog-standard 3 Bed Semi (until the builders arrive next year and I get my new garage!)
I'm on a water meter - so unless there's an unmetered feed into the house to feed my boiler I just don't get where the stuff's coming from!
Well - back to draining...
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Haha - 2 lofts :) Nah - it's a bog-standard 3 Bed Semi (until the builders arrive next year and I get my new garage!)
I'm on a water meter - so unless there's an unmetered feed into the house to feed my boiler I just don't get where the stuff's coming from!
Well - back to draining...
Ah, metered, write down the reading now, start draining again, then check after 10 mins.
If the reading is the same then you know it must be the 15mm system still draining, if the meter moves, then there must be another feed somewhere
:y :y
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Are the check valves and stats (if fitted) open on the down stairs rads?
These systems hold a lot of water.....the tanks can hold upto 5 gallon on there own!
Dont forget to add a good inhibotor when re-filling.
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Are the check valves and stats (if fitted) open on the down stairs rads?
These systems hold a lot of water.....the tanks can hold upto 5 gallon on there own!
Dont forget to add a good inhibotor when re-filling.
Red antifreeze do for that?
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i'm a sparky and i work doing heating systems. you won't have another header tank for heating. what i'll suggest is go to your cylinder cupboard and turn off yur imersion heater and your heating by the switch fused spur. your 3 port diverter valve will then close to water only. turn off any valves in the cupboard as well. then try opening drain cock if nothing happens then try isolating the radiator via the valve on the end. then when you are sure it's isolated undo the nuts holding the rad to the valves. you will lose the water from the rad so be careful. then get your bucket and open one of the valves see if anything comes out. then let me know and i'll advise further
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The drain valves have a larger nut that holds the valve into the body of the drain cock, slowly undo this larger nut ( it may be a serated nut) but not fully, this should draw out the stopper part of the valve and let the water drain, keep plenty of towles handy just incase you undo it a little to much. Unless you have a combi boiler, which you dont if it is a back boiler system then you will have another header tank to feed the central heating system. 60L of water is one hell of a lot for a central heating system to hold unless you have a twelve bedroomed house, this would indicate that the header tank is continueing to fill, its a bloody big tank or its a mains fed system which is unlikely. Hope this is of some help, any more questions then drop me a PM Good luck :y
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FINALLY!!! It's stopped coming!!
I'd turned off the immersion heater before I started to prevent it burning out/overheating. Can't see any valves in the cupboard. It's as if the header tank serves both the heating and water system. Maybe that's the way it works, with the '3 port divider' - no real idea what that does (but did see it in a diagram on the pages Baron Von-Miggy posted).
Looks like I'm pretty much there. Just need to find some PTFE tape to screw in the valves to the new bathroom rad - and guess what I can't find at the minute >:(
Anyway - thanks for the help. Throwing ideas around here has soothed my nerves no end. I've started jobs like these before and why is it that SWMBO always thinks they should take 5 minutes?
Thanks all.... top stuff, as usual :y
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FINALLY!!! It's stopped coming!!
I'd turned off the immersion heater before I started to prevent it burning out/overheating. Can't see any valves in the cupboard. It's as if the header tank serves both the heating and water system. Maybe that's the way it works, with the '3 port divider' - no real idea what that does (but did see it in a diagram on the pages Baron Von-Miggy posted).
Looks like I'm pretty much there. Just need to find some PTFE tape to screw in the valves to the new bathroom rad - and guess what I can't find at the minute >:(
Anyway - thanks for the help. Throwing ideas around here has soothed my nerves no end. I've started jobs like these before and why is it that SWMBO always thinks they should take 5 minutes?
Thanks all.... top stuff, as usual :y
Your central heating water will not be the same as your hot water, if for some strange reason it is you need to get it sorted asap, for a system with 15mm pipe as you said, you will be supprised on how much water is in there.
I thought it would stop as stated as you header tank was not filling.
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The 3 way valve only allows your water in your immersion to be heated by the pipework on the heating system, it does not feed water direct into your immersion, when your immersion gets to the temp the valve operates back to heating only.
:y
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Well done mate :y
Strip and clean those drain valves out before you refill ;)
One header tank :-? that is very naughty if its the case, unless the hot water tank has its own header tank built in. :-/
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When filling your system back up, remember to bleed each rad to allow air to escape, open the air bleed screws individually or you will have water everywhere and you will not close them all fast enough. Do them one at a time. if you dicide to flush your system, make sure you read the instructions on the products as you must get the correct flushing fluid.
:y
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Well done mate :y
Strip and clean those drain valves out before you refill ;)
One header tank :-? that is very naughty if its the case, unless the hot water tank has its own header tank built in. :-/
He must have 2 tanks, one for heating and one for hot water tank feed, if he only has one then billy bronco must have put it in with his horse helping.
;D ;D
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There must be two tanks (unless its a pressurised cenral heating cylinder or combined unit)....and it wont be 15mm for all of it.....well it shouldnt be, the main bolier pipe work inlcuding the main feed and return should be at least 22mm with 15mm drops to the rads.
Check the boiler pipe work and valve and pump pipes, bet there all 22mm.
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There must be two tanks (unless its a pressurised cenral heating cylinder or combined unit)....and it wont be 15mm for all of it.....well it shouldnt be, the main bolier pipe work inlcuding the main feed and return should be at least 22mm with 15mm drops to the rads.
Check the boiler pipe work and valve and pump pipes, bet there all 22mm.
Looks like he has 15mm up to the rads also, a lot of water in that system if he has.
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Well, here's the weird bit... I cut the water supply so there's no separate feed to the boiler. It's a back boiler, so I guess it's not a pressurised system. I've got a hot water cylinder with an immersion heater and only one header tank in the loft. Definitely. It's clear apart from one tank and I've got a 4ft tube to light it so I can see everything...
Upstairs, no radiators are attached, but normally there'd be three. I've pipework to fit a fourth, small towel rad in the bathroom. Most the pipework under the floor is 15mm. There is 'some' 22mm around, but most pipework under the floors appear to be in 15mm. Downstairs rads (only 2) are dropped from the upstairs piping.
With both drain valves clogged on the downstairs rads I figure that I only really need to half drain the system anyway to fit the new upstairs rad. So I stopped the header tank filling and drained all the water by running the hot water taps downstairs. They were left open. With an empty header tank I went to where I had an upstairs rad and opened a valve. Water comes out. Fair enough, there'd be a bit left in the pipes. But it kept coming... and kept coming... but the oddest thing was that it ran from warmish (since the heating had been on a little while before I started, and then went colder. Then, after I got rid of loads and loads of water the pressure seemed to ease slightly and it began to run warmer and warmer. A gurgle from near the hot water cylinder and not long after it stopped...
Here's hoping that when I put the rad on tomorrow I can get the system all filled up and air free by lunchtime! Got to head North tomorrow and need to leave the missus with hot water and central heating! :)
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Either the primary circuit is pressurised (does it have a filling loop, a pressure gauge or a pressure vessel anywhere?) or you have a primatic hot water tank where the two systems share a header tank, the heating system fills via the hot water tank and the systems are not entirely separated. I'm guessing it would be a lot more than 5 years old in this case.
In the latter case, the hot water taps wouldn't drain the hot water tank, only the header tank, so you have probably drained the hot water tank via the radiators!
If it's the former, you need to find the filling loop and pressure gauge and fill and bleed the system to the correct pressure before firing the boiler as just filling the header tank will leave the boiler dry.
Either way, it sounds like you're in a position to fit your rad now. Once that's done, seal the system up, fill the header tank and see if you can bleed air from the radiators. If you can it's a primatic system and you're away. If not you need to find the filling loop.
... and you can't add an inhibitor to a primatic system.
Kevin
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Either the primary circuit is pressurised (does it have a filling loop, a pressure gauge or a pressure vessel anywhere?) or you have a primatic hot water tank where the two systems share a header tank, the heating system fills via the hot water tank and the systems are not entirely separated. I'm guessing it would be a lot more than 5 years old in this case.
In the latter case, the hot water taps wouldn't drain the hot water tank, only the header tank, so you have probably drained the hot water tank via the radiators!
If it's the former, you need to find the filling loop and pressure gauge and fill and bleed the system to the correct pressure before firing the boiler as just filling the header tank will leave the boiler dry.
Either way, it sounds like you're in a position to fit your rad now. Once that's done, seal the system up, fill the header tank and see if you can bleed air from the radiators. If you can it's a primatic system and you're away. If not you need to find the filling loop.
... and you can't add an inhibitor to a primatic system.
Kevin
How does that work Kev, does that mean you are washing etc with hot water thats in the heating system or is that part of the system independant, :question :question
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How does that work Kev, does that mean you are washing etc with hot water thats in the heating system or is that part of the system independant,
Well, both systems initially fill via the common header tank, the radiators fill via their connection to the boiler and thus the hot water tank.
Once the hot water tank is full, air is trapped either side of the direct connection to the boiler, which exists inside a cylinder shaped insert in the main tank. So, the two systems are separated by air, which takes up the expansion and contraction as they heat and cool and, assuming everything is working OK, the radiator water doesn't mix with the hot water.
The problem is, if something goes wrong, or even if the tank didn't fill quite correctly and the air barrier was not established, the waters do mix, which doesn't do the heating system and boiler much good because it's a constant source of hard, aerated water. The hot water can also be discoloured by sludge from the primary system.
This is compounded because you can't treat the primary system with an inhibitor in case it gets into the secondary.
The systems were popular in the 60's and 70's but are totally obsolete now. If I had one, I'd assume that the tank was probably pretty full of scale as it'll be 30+ years old and I'd replace it with an indirect one and add a second header tank in the roof for the heating. A fairly straightforward DIY job.
Kevin
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If I had one, I would replece it with a pressurised central heating setup.....much better and much less likely to get air in as there is no point in the system which is lower than atmospheric pressure.