Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: miniator on 12 March 2009, 16:38:33
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...as i formulate plans in my head and begin to save money for "go faster" goodies...what should i be aiming for?!
Currently im at 232bhp with a Remus backbox (two middle boxes removed).
The list of further mods i have in my head are...
Mantzel Powerbox
Panel Filter OR a cone enclosed in the OEM airbox (this worked well with my old honda)
More direct and bigger cold air feed into the airbox
Enlarge throttle bodies
Courtnay Cams
Dastek Unichip
Much further down the line...Eaton Supercharger, but im only worried really with N/A tuning at the minute.
Ive also considered Sports CAT's/de-cat but which suits the x30xe best...i dont want her any louder than she is!
Ive also heard of getting custom made exhaust manifolds...bigger ones as these are restrictive. Ive only heard myabe 3 people say this so im not sure.
Possibly a lightened flywheel!?
With those mods would 300bhp be possible!?
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some nice ideas there. would be great to see it at 300bhp.
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No way will you see 300 BHP without forced induction.
Even then you'll have to extensively modify the bottom end and cooling to cope.
Mantzel Powerbox
Might give you a little more at the top end at the expense of the low down torque that the multiram setup gives. Net effect probably not that great.
Panel Filter OR a cone enclosed in the OEM airbox (this worked well with my old honda)
More direct and bigger cold air feed into the airbox
OEM air filter is huge, and draws in cold air more effectively than any cone filter setup I've seen. I don't believe the air filter is a weak link with this engine so may as well leave it be.
Enlarge throttle bodies
The standard throttles are plenty big enough. Might gain a couple of BHP by cheaning up the interfaces at the expense of driveability if whoever modifies them doesn't know what he's doing.
Courtnay Cams
Choose cams carefully. What do you want to achieve? Cam choice is always a compromise between flexibility and top-end power. Also, make sure your induction and exhaust system is not the weakest link, or you will lose out on both counts with hot cams. For road use, in a heavy car like an Omega, I wouldn't upgrade the cams.
Dastek Unichip
Isn't this just a piggy back that alters the fuelling? I would get a decent chip for the existing ECU rather than a piggy-back. Much better value for money for a start.
Ive also considered Sports CAT's/de-cat but which suits the x30xe best...i dont want her any louder than she is!
Ive also heard of getting custom made exhaust manifolds...bigger ones as these are restrictive. Ive only heard myabe 3 people say this so im not sure.
It also comes down to what's restrictive at the moment. Until you know what the weakest link is, it's not worth upgrading things. There's a guy on Autobahnstormers who's just had some tubular manifolds made up. Let's see what he reports...
Possibly a lightened flywheel!?
I wouldn't bother on a heavy car. It will make the engine seem more responsive when revving in neutral but will give you no more power and less flexibitiy when pulling away, etc. This is assuming it's a manual. If it's an auto your flywheel is already about as light as it can get - it's just got a huge heavy torque converter bolted to it!
Kevin
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wow kevin, i think youve managed to contradict everything i have research thus far!
for a start, i know a 3.2 putting out 250 with just breathing mods. ie, a BMC CDA and a straight through exhaust system. so with the other mods ive mentioned youd have to agree that 280 would be possible?!
and that air filter comment, back that up with evidence please....a K&N for example will draw more air that the OEM paper one, and im talking panel filters here
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in addition i found that Piper have cams for the x30xe that quote a 20bhp increase.
the courtnays quote an 18bhp increase and are labelled as high torque cams
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Simple mods
1) Pipe coming into the air box from the front - cut it flush as it comes in.
2) The exhaust manifolds are restrictive on PFLs, try FL manifolds or ABS manifolds.
3) Chip - use a proper one mapped for your car
4) Inlet - match the splitter to the ports, lots of room for improvements, however requires heads off.
5) V Power or Ultimate
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There's a guy on Autobahnstormers who's just had some tubular manifolds made up. Let's see what he reports...
Do you have any more information on these at all Kevin? I'm not registered on ABS, so can't see what the general crack is with these...
Thanks
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Simple mods
1) Pipe coming into the air box from the front - cut it flush as it comes in.
2) The exhaust manifolds are restrictive on PFLs, try FL manifolds or ABS manifolds.
3) Chip - use a proper one mapped for your car
4) Inlet - match the splitter to the ports, lots of room for improvements, however requires heads off.
5) V Power or Ultimate
im lost here lol, do explain!
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PFL = prefacelift
FL= Facelift
ABS = autobahnstormers
PFL early model cars, generally 2.5's, 3.0's
FL later cars, generally 2.6's, 3.2's... DBW (drive by wire)
ABS .. a guy there is having manifolds made to his own design to try and smooth the gas flows..
:)
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ahhh, so id have the PFL ones fitted even though my cars (a 3.0) a facelift!? right?!
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AFAIK all 3.0 have the same manifolds, the FL / PFL change is not exactly in line with the engine changes .... an expert will pass by and give the correct info shortly..... :)
I THINK (don't hold me to it) the PFL/mini FL change was around 1997 mini FL/FL around 1999 and the engine changes around 2000 but I'm probably wrong ... :(
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LOL o dear goodness, im getting more confused the deeper i get into this! Hondas were much easier!
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I've done some research .. and best source I can find is ..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_Omega#Omega_24V
Right down the bottom under Omega B, among other things is :
Late in 1999, the Omega received a facelift and a 2.2 L 16-valve engine was added to the range as an eventual replacement for the 2.0 L. The following year, a 3.2 L V6 engine replaced the 3.0 L V6 unit, and a 2.6 L V6 engine replaced the 2.5 L V6 unit.
so my guesses were not too far out .. :)
HTH
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wow kevin, i think youve managed to contradict everything i have research thus far!
for a start, i know a 3.2 putting out 250 with just breathing mods. ie, a BMC CDA and a straight through exhaust system. so with the other mods ive mentioned youd have to agree that 280 would be possible?!
and that air filter comment, back that up with evidence please....a K&N for example will draw more air that the OEM paper one, and im talking panel filters here
The restriction offered by an air fliter is related to 2 things.
The resistance of the material used and the total surface area of the medium.
The paper element has a MASSIVE surface area, much larger than any panel or cone filter.....and the material used is not hugely restrictive, only slightly more than a new panel filter.
The oiled filters are also an issue as they clog very quickly (again, low surface area is not helping here!) so drop off quite quickly as the miles ramp up. The oil can also cause issues with a MAF sensor to.
The result is, the paper air filter is as good as it gets in this case!
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I've done some research .. and best source I can find is ..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_Omega#Omega_24V
Right down the bottom under Omega B, among other things is :
Late in 1999, the Omega received a facelift and a 2.2 L 16-valve engine was added to the range as an eventual replacement for the 2.0 L. The following year, a 3.2 L V6 engine replaced the 3.0 L V6 unit, and a 2.6 L V6 engine replaced the 2.5 L V6 unit.
HTH
Lol, long time since I put that info in, about time I got that edited up better!
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surely a replacement panel filter is the same size as the old one and therefore able to draw more due to being less restrictive!?
i was thinkin an un-oiled one like a green cotton filter.
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surely a replacement panel filter is the same size as the old one and therefore able to draw more due to being less restrictive!?
i was thinkin an un-oiled one like a green cotton filter.
If you look at a stock air filter it is made from a VERY large piece of filter material which is formed into a concortina shape with fingers a good 30+mm deep. This results ina massive surface area.
The foam ones are not even lcoe to this surface area!
Hence, keep the stock item and change it moreregulalrly than the 20K mile interval.
The only thing that will increase with a different type of fitetr is the intake noise :y
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wow kevin, i think youve managed to contradict everything i have research thus far!
I didn't mean to be terse but it appears that the research you quote has been from tuning companies who are no doubt eager to sell you their products. You can't simply add up their power claims and conclude that you can get 300 BHP from a 3.0.
For one thing their claims might well be exaggerated.
Secondly, it's one thing to gain power from a standard engine but once an engine has had a certain amount of tuning it's a law of diminishing returns.
for a start, i know a 3.2 putting out 250 with just breathing mods. ie, a BMC CDA and a straight through exhaust system. so with the other mods ive mentioned youd have to agree that 280 would be possible?!
Where was that measured? A 30 BHP gain from some fairly rudimentary mods sounds too good to be true to me. Remember a lot of rolling roads (especially those owned by the guys who have just supplied you with tuning bits) tell the customer what he wants to hear.
Yes, 280BHP is possible. I have personally seen a naturally aspirated C20XE make 300 BHP and a natasp 1.8 Rover K series make 250 BHP on a rolling road that I trust to be accurate. However, both of those engines had been blueprinted and rebuilt with all steel internals.
Now, you might not have to be quite as extreme (by this I mean 9K RPM redline) with a 3.0 to reach that level due to the greater capacity but they will need substantial work to the heads, cams and bottom end. We're out of the realm of induction kits and sports cats at this level.
and that air filter comment, back that up with evidence please....a K&N for example will draw more air that the OEM paper one, and im talking panel filters here
Plenty of members have reported having "upgraded" their air filters using K&N panel filters, cone filters, etc. I can't recall one person who didn't admit it was only the noise that changed. The factory panel filter is huge for a 200 BHP engine (largely to support the long service intervals). The filter won't draw more air because the engine is already drawing all the air it can through the standard filter.
Do you have any more information on these at all Kevin? I'm not registered on ABS, so can't see what the general crack is with these...
The thread is Here: http://www.autobahnstormers.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15007&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
However, their forum is members only. The current situation is that a member has had a set of tubular manifolds for the V6 made up, and is asking if there's the potential to do a bulk buy. I will see if he is prepared to post the info. on here if it's of interest. IIRC, the prices being quoted were in the region of 600 quid, so not a cheap upgrade. :o
Kevin
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The intake isn't restrictive, so I wouldn't bother looking there for more horses. The Exhaust however, is an issue. You've improved things from the CAT back but it the CATS themselves and further forwards that are the real issue. Removing the CATS or fitting sports CATs will help. Manifolds and down pipes will still be limiting the flow so this is where good gains can be found.
Biggest problem is that there are very few off the shelf goodies for the engine. A lot of improvements would need to be custom made. Inlelt and exhaust manifolds can be matched to the head, along with opening up the ports, bigger valves perhaps etc. Then you can take advantage of hotter cams. However, all this would need to be done by an experienced enginner - not a guy with a dremel. Seeing as there is so little demand for work on these engines, I doubt that you'll find someone who knows exactly what they are doing. It's as easy to lose power as it is to gain! You'd also need a live mapping session and quite probably a standalone ecu and software.
As has been said, ultimately there isn't a great scope for tuning as the engines simply weren't designed to cope with much more power. The blocks aren't designed to allow sufficient cooling so would need to be radically engineered to ensure any sort of reliabilty. Rods and pistons would need to be replaced and probably crank too for 300bhp through forced induction. Engines have produced 300+bhp in race trim but they are very expensive, lots of custom work and not suited to street driving. To put it into perspective - an E36 M3 has the same power in stock tune!! :o
So...........spending cash on trying to extract more ponies from the X30XE is probably a fruitless task. By all means fit a better exhaust, that will help. But I'd concentrate on making sure that everything is in good condition and working properly as stock. If you want to spend money on going faster, then spend it on the brakes, tyres, coil-over suspension, poly-bushes etc. Stripping the interior is free performance tuning don't forget! If it's really engine power that you want then I think looking into an engine swap is the way to go - Saab Turbo or even a SBC.
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wow kevin, i think youve managed to contradict everything i have research thus far!
I didn't mean to be terse but it appears that the research you quote has been from tuning companies who are no doubt eager to sell you their products. You can't simply add up their power claims and conclude that you can get 300 BHP from a 3.0.
For one thing their claims might well be exaggerated.
Secondly, it's one thing to gain power from a standard engine but once an engine has had a certain amount of tuning it's a law of diminishing returns.
for a start, i know a 3.2 putting out 250 with just breathing mods. ie, a BMC CDA and a straight through exhaust system. so with the other mods ive mentioned youd have to agree that 280 would be possible?!
Where was that measured? A 30 BHP gain from some fairly rudimentary mods sounds too good to be true to me. Remember a lot of rolling roads (especially those owned by the guys who have just supplied you with tuning bits) tell the customer what he wants to hear.
Yes, 280BHP is possible. I have personally seen a naturally aspirated C20XE make 300 BHP and a natasp 1.8 Rover K series make 250 BHP on a rolling road that I trust to be accurate. However, both of those engines had been blueprinted and rebuilt with all steel internals.
Now, you might not have to be quite as extreme (by this I mean 9K RPM redline) with a 3.0 to reach that level due to the greater capacity but they will need substantial work to the heads, cams and bottom end. We're out of the realm of induction kits and sports cats at this level.
and that air filter comment, back that up with evidence please....a K&N for example will draw more air that the OEM paper one, and im talking panel filters here
Plenty of members have reported having "upgraded" their air filters using K&N panel filters, cone filters, etc. I can't recall one person who didn't admit it was only the noise that changed. The factory panel filter is huge for a 200 BHP engine (largely to support the long service intervals). The filter won't draw more air because the engine is already drawing all the air it can through the standard filter.
Do you have any more information on these at all Kevin? I'm not registered on ABS, so can't see what the general crack is with these...
The thread is Here: http://www.autobahnstormers.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15007&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
However, their forum is members only. The current situation is that a member has had a set of tubular manifolds for the V6 made up, and is asking if there's the potential to do a bulk buy. I will see if he is prepared to post the info. on here if it's of interest. IIRC, the prices being quoted were in the region of 600 quid, so not a cheap upgrade. :o
Kevin
well the guy making 250bhp on a 3.2, i know the rollers he run on and i have run 2 cars on them personally along with attending two rolling roads days and they are as accurate as you can get in NI, maybe the UK.
at easter im going to invest in a panel filter and make my own mantzel powerbox (replica) and run her again on the same rollers, just to see what kind of improvements i can get. i wouldnt mind having a look at those ABS mani's....expensive but what kind of gains is he getting?!
i would love to keep the 3.0 v6 as it makes a joyful noise and the torque is fantastic....i wouldnt mind a turbo (astra vxr) but how about something different like a vectra vxr engine? i query here is, what gearbox to use?!
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Saab Turbo engines have same block pattern as GM engines that are fitted in Omegas - so they'll bolt straight onto existing miggy 'boxes. Easily make 300bhp with a few mods. Cheap and plentiful. Best bet for turbo power for sure.
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are they a 4 or 6 pot engine!?
what models were they fitted too?!
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Saab used the 3.0 in C form (transverse) so manifolds, downpipes etc aren't much use on a RWD car
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afaik, imho, tbh... save your money. Be patient and look for proven methods. In the mean time make sure the servicing is up to date, and the bushes are ok front and back. Service your ac, do the belts and filters. Etc.
Then, hopefully, some answers will be ready. Ie where is the weakest link/restriction in the engine? From what i gather the exhaust manifolds are suspected to be most restrictive, hence the advice given by others perhaps. The stock items feed into a plenum rather than use the scavenging effect of a long downpipe which is also more expensive to make than the stock cast items. Why? Cost? Tuned for grunt and a flat torque curve? Is this at the expense of fuel economy for comfort? Or will free er flowing manifolds give better economy but a peaky tune, i cant beleive economy could get worse but thats probable if it flows more air. You get the general drift.
Once the above is known, then it may be worth further improvements, for instance there seems little point fitting larger throttle bodies and bigger bore straight through exhaust if the manifolds tie a knot in the system in between.
You may get some gains here and there, but at what cost? More noise in the cabin? Worse economy? Loss of low down grunt where you need it most?
I find it amazing that a small tuning firm can turn over millions of pounds of r and d on what is an executive car, dont forget, with a panel filter, pipe and a chip without some down sides... Dont you?
The omega is not really designed with world touring cars in mind, and i beleive those that do race it bin the v6 for chevy v8! And a thing of beuty it is too.
Its your car mate, do as you please, personally i love a tinker, but it takes more than a tinker to beat what GM designed.
God im getting old. Nyear
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Not the 3.0l ones - the 2.3 4 cylinders from the 9000's
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3.2 has a steel crank
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thanks guys for all the info there, and i hear what your saying chris! i wont be doing anything more really to her (other than upkeep and driving her) til after the summer....as i have a second car itll probably be a little winter project. and hopefully by that stage the ABS mani's will be ready....fingers crossed!
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Bin the V6 and install an LS2 thats what i would do or fit a C20XE redtop turbo the 3.2 is the engine to tune up not the 3.0
in the next few months i am looking to get a 02 3.2 V6 MV6 just waiting for the bloke to find a new car and i can buy his mint EX BT Facelift MV6 :y
then im going to investigate what happens when a 3.2 meets an Eaton ::)
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Bin the V6 and install an LS2 thats what i would do or fit a C20XE redtop turbo the 3.2 is the engine to tune up not the 3.0
in the next few months i am looking to get a 02 3.2 V6 MV6 just waiting for the bloke to find a new car and i can buy his mint EX BT Facelift MV6 :y
then im going to investigate what happens when a 3.2 meets an Eaton ::)
you mean a c20let ! been thinking of supercharging mine £3500+ for a kit ! :o :o
good engine would be a vxr vectra 2.8 turbo ::)