Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: JamesV6CDX on 16 November 2007, 19:03:04
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Stripped the facelift down tonight
It was instantly apparent that the top idler is shot to bits. Bits of metal filings everywhere, and all the grease from the pulley too was all over the place.
The bottom idler, was almost BLACK, looks like the belt's been rubbing against it?
With crank at TDC, it was clear there had been some belt tooth slippage on both banks.
I'm not sure if this is good news or not, but I've managed to get the crank to 60deg BTDC, and the cams are all rotating.
I plan to fit another belt kit, and turn it by hand to see how it feels. If it feels OK, I will then compression test all the cylinders.
BTW, I'm a bit stuck for something, if anyone can get a timing kit to me tomorrow, I would be over the moon....
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do we have any idea yet of the amount of slippage ?
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do we have any idea yet of the amount of slippage ?
I rekon 4 teeth...
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Any Pics?
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do we have any idea yet of the amount of slippage ?
I rekon 4 teeth...
Ouch.....sounds ominous but if your very very lucky..... :-/
its certainly positive that all 4 cams are rotating...
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Any Pics?
No, light was awful, and I was too busy to faff with Camera...
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Your goosed......cams turning means nothing.....from my experience, 4 teeth is to many.
Were all the cams out by four teeth?
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Your goosed......cams turning means nothing.....from my experience, 4 teeth is to many.
Were all the cams out by four teeth?
No, 4 teeth was the worst case scenario.. on the RH inlet cam.
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Hi James, Hope you get it going OK. Here's something to do with that spare engine you have, a nice winter project (http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t155/lapbits/0ef8_1.jpg) :(
This one runs on LPG so very economical ! ;D ;D ;D see, even space for the doggies !
See http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=160178634291&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=006
Ken
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What more, a 3.0 V6 has more power than a 3.5 rover V8.....
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Nice Manifold design!
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What more, a 3.0 V6 has more power than a 3.5 rover V8.....
yeah and ive never understood that.........there only ever seems to be marginal bhp increase on 3.5 or 4.0 v8`s :-/
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More torque....very little more bhp but its down to the VERY poor head design etc.
Anyway James, looks like you need some heads sorting.
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More torque....very little more bhp but its down to the VERY poor head design etc.
Anyway James, looks like you need some heads sorting.
I may be wrong - I read on another thread, that the inlet and exhaust can turn away from each other without damage? I may be wrong...
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What more, a 3.0 V6 has more power than a 3.5 rover V8.....
Most things have more power than a Rover V8, but they're short of the sound (& a couple or more cylinders) ;D
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Hi James, Hope you get it going OK. Here's something to do with that spare engine you have, a nice winter project (http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t155/lapbits/0ef8_1.jpg) :(
This one runs on LPG so very economical ! ;D ;D ;D see, even space for the doggies !
See http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=160178634291&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=006
Ken
Blimey, it's towing a 4x4. :o :o :o
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More torque....very little more bhp but its down to the VERY poor head design etc.
Anyway James, looks like you need some heads sorting.
I may be wrong - I read on another thread, that the inlet and exhaust can turn away from each other without damage? I may be wrong...
Trouble is that when they jump they all jump in the same direction.....inlets can retarded and exhausts can advanced but....if an engines running....they all go in one direction (due to the inertia of the cams).....I strongly suspect that the inlets will all be bent.
Ow yes.....you can start the V6 without the inlet ducting connected (saves re-fitting the aux belt gubbins etc) to make it quicker to test just in case your feeling lucky.
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:'(
I think you'll be extremely lucky to survive that.
You say it had 10k to run until a cam belt change?
Think I'll add that to my list of things to do when I LPG it. It's got 20k to run but unless you know it's been done to OOF standards it obviously means nothing.
I've got a lovely Laser timing kit here, BTW :y
For damage assessment purposes you could probably fit it by eye. The odd 1/2 a tooth out won't give you the drop in compression that a mullered valve will.
On the brighter side of the news, project LPG is go for next weekend. Emma suggested she ought to provide bacon butties too :y
Kevin
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:'(
I think you'll be extremely lucky to survive that.
You say it had 10k to run until a cam belt change?
Think I'll add that to my list of things to do when I LPG it. It's got 20k to run but unless you know it's been done to OOF standards it obviously means nothing.
I've got a lovely Laser timing kit here, BTW :y
For damage assessment purposes you could probably fit it by eye. The odd 1/2 a tooth out won't give you the drop in compression that a mullered valve will.
On the brighter side of the news, project LPG is go for next weekend. Emma suggested she ought to provide bacon butties too :y
Kevin
bugger. i fink i'm under an audi :'(
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Don't despair, TB. This the advance party fitting on James' (repaired) car.
I have a plan regarding an LPG install en-masse. Just need to find out when Mr&Mrs. Kevin Wood senior go on holiday :y
Kevin
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Don't despair, TB. This the advance party fitting on James' (repaired) car.
I have a plan regarding an LPG install en-masse. Just need to find out when Mr&Mrs. Kevin Wood senior go on holiday :y
Kevin
but i'm still missing out on next weeks bacon butties :'(
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Anyone's welcome to pop over and see what's going on, sample butties, etc. I suspect it'll be an all-weekender too.
Kevin
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Anyone's welcome to pop over and see what's going on, sample butties, etc. I suspect it'll be an all-weekender too.
Kevin
bugger, that means booze as well :'( :'( :'(
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Sorry if this is a silly question but.... If say you bent the inlet valves on one bank of a V6, but managed to start the car, would the repeated thump of the damaged valve onto the valve seats not knock it back into proper contact ?. OK, its only a spring pushing it back, but it was only contact with a softish piston that bent it in the first place ?. How "bendy" are the valve stems ?.
Ken
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Sorry if this is a silly question but.... If say you bent the inlet valves on one bank of a V6, but managed to start the car, would the repeated thump of the damaged valve onto the valve seats not knock it back into proper contact ?. OK, its only a spring pushing it back, but it was only contact with a softish piston that bent it in the first place ?. How "bendy" are the valve stems ?.
Ken
No. it would probably knacker the stem seals as well.
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Once an engine has knackered valves the best that can happen is that the cylinder(s) affected don't fire anymore. Failing that the valve heads get continued pounding until they break off, and then get battered between head and piston until the whole lot is scrap.
It's a real shame Rotary engines haven't taken off, in a way. No valves to worry about. They have their issues too, however.
Kevin
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it is not uncommon for valves to be bent into a "s" shape as well as breaking valve guides!!
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Thanks for that, I see what you mean, the stems would get "S"ed and there would be no way of it ever sealing again. What ever happended to Young's Modulus of Elasticity !
Ken
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Thanks for that, I see what you mean, the stems would get "S"ed and there would be no way of it ever sealing again. What ever happended to Young's Modulus of Elasticity !
Ken
Like the rest of us, it just got old. ;)
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Once an engine has knackered valves the best that can happen is that the cylinder(s) affected don't fire anymore. Failing that the valve heads get continued pounding until they break off, and then get battered between head and piston until the whole lot is scrap.
It's a real shame Rotary engines haven't taken off, in a way. No valves to worry about. They have their issues too, however.
Kevin
Or even the Stirling Engine. We could have a large magnifying glass in the bonnet for energy supply !
Ken
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The tiniest things can kill an engine once there's contact with moving parts.
When we went over to Cape Town on our honeymoon last year I smuggled a set of 16 nice shiny new valves over for a mate's racing car. He rebuilt the engine with all trick parts, forged pistons, the lot. It did about 5 laps before it let go. A piston cooling oil jet had been fouling ever so slightly with the skirt of one of the pistons. It eventually broke off, bounced around inside the engine trashing things in the bottom end. Meanwhile one of the main bearings was starved of oil and siezed, threw a rod through the side of the block and 14 of the valves were totally shot, along with the rest of the engine. :'(
Kevin
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Out of interest, how did sassanach get away with a belt slip of 6 teeth, and survive?
It only appeared to be my inlet cam that had slipped by that amount.. I can't really picture in my head what happened in there..
I still feel I might be lucky...
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Possibly exhaust only slipped.....if the inlet moves by that much its advanced so starts to open before the piston is at TDC and by the time it is there touching....
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So how did Sassanach get away with six teeth? don't forget, four teeth was only a visual estimate - it may have been three.
I don't know why, I'm still quietly confident it will be ok
Remember I said I tried to turn the crank after it spluttered and died, and it wouldn't go around??
Well, the fact that it was in gear wasn't helping ::)
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So how did Sassanach get away with six teeth? don't forget, four teeth was only a visual estimate - it may have been three.
I don't know why, I'm still quietly confident it will be ok
Remember I said I tried to turn the crank after it spluttered and died, and it wouldn't go around??
Well, the fact that it was in gear wasn't helping ::)
Makes no odds....you can still turn the engine over on a car with a knackered cambelt.....the pistons will have already re-created the piston valve clearances by bendng them.
The bottom line is it wouldn't run, even if it was a few teeth out on all the cams, it would stll run (not well).....
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left hand bank pulleys one tooth out, r.h bank 6 TEETH OUT and yet it ran bl++dy awfull noise tho.anyway after checking with a modified spark plug and a airline NO valve damage at all. 8-)
how about this? 6 teeth!!!
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left hand bank pulleys one tooth out, r.h bank 6 TEETH OUT [size=16]and yet it ran [/size]bl++dy awfull noise tho.anyway after checking with a modified spark plug and a airline NO valve damage at all. 8-)
how about this? 6 teeth!!!
Nuff said....