Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: NaughtyNigel on 17 March 2009, 13:35:30
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The head gasket on my CDX 2.5 V6 is on its way out after just 98,000 happy miles. :'(
This has been confirmed by a local independent motor engineer, who found high CO levels in the coolant header tank.
He is suggesting that replacement head gaskets would cost around £800, as both heads will need to be stripped down, skimmed and then put back together.
The body is a facelift model (2000) and is in very good condition otherwise.
Any advise or suggestions? Second-hand Jags (or should that be re-badged Mondeos) are looking more and more attractive by the day, but what could I ever replace the Omega with if I really wanted to?
:'( :'( :'(
NN
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what are the actual symptoms? (what caused you to get it tested?)
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very rare for v6 headgaskets to go unless its been run on mainly water ie no antifreeze then gaskets will have rot :( :(
what problems you having bud ??
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I understand that any garage will charge around £500-800 to do it, but more or less, parts (incl. skim)will cost no more than £200-250. Rest is only a labor – it usually takes 2 days to do it.
If you have some tools and enough time, you can do it yourself in 2-3 days. Hard work but worth the hassle.
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As already said, very, very rare for the head gasket to fail on a V6.
My local Vauxhall dealer told me, by useing the same method, a 'sniffer' that the HG gone, minimum £1200 to do the job.
Became a member of OOF, asked the same question as you, problem was the 'oil cooler'. All fixed for less than £200, plus a couple of other jobs.
Wait and see what other replies you get :y :y
regards
richarda
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as previously, what is actually the problem?
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what are the actual symptoms? (what caused you to get it tested?)
Thanks for the replies.
I first noticed a missfire under load (probably one or two cylinders) when the engine was warming up, and a mile or so from cold (but not when hot or cold). This I dismissed as an ignition problem or similar, and as it always cleaerd up by itself I just carried on.
Next I noticed a sweet smell of hot antifreeze whenever I got out of the car after a journey;, especialy after climbing a hill or similar. The antifreeze level was dropping slightly, to the point that it now needs a top up every 500 miles or so. The water is also looking dirty, but the engine oil is not contaminated at all. I suppose this has been going on for at least a year now, and probably 8,000 miles or so!
I asked the garage to have a look when it went in for MOT recently, as I suspected that the water pump might be failing, and I know that can spell disaster on these engines.
The engineer checked out the cooling system, and put his CO sensor into the coolant header tank to check for exhaust gas. This was positive, and as he said, there is only one place that exhaust gasses can come from!
Oddly enough, the head gasket went on our Astra Arctic only last year, and that had only done 48,000 miles.
Seems we are unlukcy with Vauxhall head gaskets. :(
NN
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Sorry on what you have described I am still not convinced it's HG.
regards
richarda
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Does the car fail MOT if you have a HG problem? What are the usual symptoms of a HG failure? Mine is leaking coolant but I can see the water coming for the Radiator. Should I be worried about a HG failure in the near future as I can also smell the sweet taste of coolant after long journeys
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I dont buy the blown head gasket just because he's pushed a sniffer in the expansion tank.
What is the colour and condition of the coolant.
When the engine is running are there any bubbles in the coolant.
Iain.
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I dont buy the blown head gasket just because he's pushed a sniffer in the expansion tank.
What is the colour and condition of the coolant.
When the engine is running are there any bubbles in the coolant.
Iain.
Neither do I. where is the coolant going? if it is into the oil then you'll get loads of mayo in the filler/dipstick. If it is into the cylinders then you'll get exhaust gasses in the cooling system and over pressurisation.
Sounds like the HBV has gone and decided to piddle coolant over the DIS pack.
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Hi,
please check this
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1209123016
there are things to do before deciding that its a head gasket failure,
like compression testing when engine is cold..
Also Omegas tend to loose coolant from some places like
Heater bypass valve, oil cooler area, thermostat area, heater matrix and even from the reservoir cap..
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I dont buy the blown head gasket just because he's pushed a sniffer in the expansion tank.
What is the colour and condition of the coolant.
When the engine is running are there any bubbles in the coolant.
Iain.
The coolant looks quite dirty (cloudy dark grey with suspended particles), and leaves a tide mark around the header tank. Coolant consumption is variable - sometimes needing a top up after 300 - 400 miles, but other times it will go to 1,000 or more.
The engine oil, as decribed above is perfectly clean, and even the filler neck doesn't have any mayo around it.
Finally, there are no bubbles in the coolant at idle, but there must be some when under load, as the header is highly pressurised, and after a run (and standing beside the header tank) I can smell the coolant coming through the relief valve. The smell is much stronger after climbing a hill, or after a fast run, whilst driving in traffic creates much less pressure and smell.
I hope that helps narrow down the problem.
I must say a leaking head gasket sounds plausible. The only other possible explanation that I can think of would be a cracked cylinder head, but that would leak all the time.
I have been out in the old girl this evening, and she was running like an express train, so I have decided I would like to get the work done and run her for at least another year or two. I have had the car from new and it would be a pity to part company now over a relatively minor problem. :)
NN
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Who was your independant mechanic, can I suggest keith in Fishburn :y
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A number of miss informed bits here.
1) You wont find a 'real' engineer in a garage, he might be able to test adn change parts but hes not upto the level of being able to design the lumps!!
2) The water pumpmgping will not cause a major fault on these units unless it totaly falls apart and stops water circulation .....but you would notice the alternator chargng light come on first as its aux belt driven and not cambelt driven.
3) The coolant system should be pressurised although not excessively!
4) Loss of coolant through the header tank cap could be a faulty header tank cap so aheva good look at it and its rubber seal!
Right, so we hae some coolant loos and some miss fire.
I assume there is no oil in the plug wells?
Any sign of coolant under the car after its been stood?
Has it been properly serviced with coolant changes every 2 years?
When you top the water up are you just chucking water in or doing the proper thing and adding a 50:50 water anti freeze mix?
A coolant setup wtih old or no antifreeze will cause a LOT of damage on ANY engine from ANY manufacturer. The anti freeze contains corrosion inhibitors which protects the alloy sections and gaskets etc
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Who was your independant mechanic, can I suggest keith in Fishburn :y
Do you mean Ken from Fishburn? Yes it was. Really nice guy who seems to know what he is doing.
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no water in oil, not HG... Simple.
Possible oil cooler failed or has in the past hence exhaust gas detected in bottle? Missfire, possible oil in plug wells? Coolent leak common.
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A number of miss informed bits here.
1) You wont find a 'real' engineer in a garage, he might be able to test adn change parts but hes not upto the level of being able to design the lumps!!
2) The water pumpmgping will not cause a major fault on these units unless it totaly falls apart and stops water circulation .....but you would notice the alternator chargng light come on first as its aux belt driven and not cambelt driven.
3) The coolant system should be pressurised although not excessively!
4) Loss of coolant through the header tank cap could be a faulty header tank cap so aheva good look at it and its rubber seal!
Right, so we hae some coolant loos and some miss fire.
I assume there is no oil in the plug wells?
Any sign of coolant under the car after its been stood?
Has it been properly serviced with coolant changes every 2 years?
When you top the water up are you just chucking water in or doing the proper thing and adding a 50:50 water anti freeze mix?
A coolant setup wtih old or no antifreeze will cause a LOT of damage on ANY engine from ANY manufacturer. The anti freeze contains corrosion inhibitors which protects the alloy sections and gaskets etc
Thanks for your thoughts.
1) I take you point about so called 'Engineers', but this is someone who knows how to 'breathe' on engines, shall we say, and knows how and why they work. I know this is not the same as being an engine designer, but this man is certainly not a part swapper, and always seems very objective to me.
2) I don't entirely agree regarding the water pump. If the outer bearing goes then the cam belt goes with it, which can be terminal. I am told that often the only sign of such problems is a slight coolant leak. I know of two Vauxhall's, (Cavaliers with 2.5 V6 and 2.0 16 V engines) that have met their maker that way.
3) I know the cooling system should be pressurised, but this one is venting off when hot, especially after the engine has been worked. I can smell it every time I get out of the car after a journey, even as short as five miles.
There is no obvious leakage of coolant anywhere; only a gradual drop in level. I top up with water and antifreeze mix whenever I can, but if I have to top up away from home I sometimes have to use water and then add antifreeze later.
I haven't checked the plug wells for oil, but the engine is very clean, and does not use any oil. I will check the plug wells as soon as I can.
As far as I know, the coolant hasn't been changed routinely every two years, but it has been changed thereabouts when other work has been done - most recently a new AC condenser.
Does that help at all?
NN
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Does the car fail MOT if you have a HG problem? What are the usual symptoms of a HG failure? Mine is leaking coolant but I can see the water coming for the Radiator. Should I be worried about a HG failure in the near future as I can also smell the sweet taste of coolant after long journeys
I don't think that would fail an MOT unless it made the car unroadworthy, or caused a hazard. It sounds as if you need a new radiator rather than a new head gasket.
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Who was your independant mechanic, can I suggest keith in Fishburn :y
Do you mean Ken from Fishburn? Yes it was. Really nice guy who seems to know what he is doing.
No, Keith, up the road and round the corner from Ken, known them both for what seems like 'forever' :y Ken does our MOT's
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2) I don't entirely agree regarding the water pump. If the outer bearing goes then the cam belt goes with it, which can be terminal. I am told that often the only sign of such problems is a slight coolant leak. I know of two Vauxhall's, (Cavaliers with 2.5 V6 and 2.0 16 V engines) that have met their maker that way.
sorry, you are both right and wrong. the 2.5 V6 fitted to the omega has an aux belt driven water pump. Failure of the water pump will NOT damage the cambelt. 4 pot VX power units do have a cambelt driven water pump so water pump failure may damage the cambelt. Mr DTM's advice to you is therefore correct in this case
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2) I don't entirely agree regarding the water pump. If the outer bearing goes then the cam belt goes with it, which can be terminal. I am told that often the only sign of such problems is a slight coolant leak. I know of two Vauxhall's, (Cavaliers with 2.5 V6 and 2.0 16 V engines) that have met their maker that way.
sorry, you are both right and wrong. the 2.5 V6 fitted to the omega has an aux belt driven water pump. Failure of the water pump will NOT damage the cambelt. 4 pot VX power units do have a cambelt driven water pump so water pump failure may damage the cambelt. Mr DTM's advice to you is therefore correct in this case
Ah, thank you for clearing that one up. So the engine in the Cavalier/Vectra has a different water pump drive arrangement then?
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And as for point 1), just because hes a 'better' mechanic does not make him an engineer!
You dont call a better nurse a doctor do you!
Do you have any knowledge of the cars history before you owned it?
V6 head gasket failure is very rare, its certianly not in the realsm of 4 pots and K series engines! ;D
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2) I don't entirely agree regarding the water pump. If the outer bearing goes then the cam belt goes with it, which can be terminal. I am told that often the only sign of such problems is a slight coolant leak. I know of two Vauxhall's, (Cavaliers with 2.5 V6 and 2.0 16 V engines) that have met their maker that way.
sorry, you are both right and wrong. the 2.5 V6 fitted to the omega has an aux belt driven water pump. Failure of the water pump will NOT damage the cambelt. 4 pot VX power units do have a cambelt driven water pump so water pump failure may damage the cambelt. Mr DTM's advice to you is therefore correct in this case
Ah, thank you for clearing that one up. So the engine in the Cavalier/Vectra has a different water pump drive arrangement then?
No, the Cavalier had a C25XE, the Vectra had an X25Xe, all of which have an aux belt driven water pump
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And as for point 1), just because hes a 'better' mechanic does not make him an engineer!
You dont call a better nurse a doctor do you!
Do you have any knowledge of the cars history before you owned it?
V6 head gasket failure is very rare, its certianly not in the realsm of 4 pots and K series engines! ;D
OK, fair enough. Common misuse of the word 'engineer' I guess. I should know better :)
Anyhow, I have owned the car almost from new (it was a main agent 'demonstrator' for a few weeks until the summer came and the boss wanted a VX 220). It came with Irmisher kit, presumably fitted at the factory or the dealers, and has been a real gem.
I don't do a huge mileage (98,000 miles now), so it has always had a roughly annual service at 10,000 miles or a bit less, and has had Mobil 1 oil from its first service.
The only problems in this time have been an oil seal on the diff, and the aircon condenser. Oh, and I got a rear door replaced under warranty (after eight years) because of corrosion! Other than that it has all been fairly routine stuff.
NN
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2) I don't entirely agree regarding the water pump. If the outer bearing goes then the cam belt goes with it, which can be terminal. I am told that often the only sign of such problems is a slight coolant leak. I know of two Vauxhall's, (Cavaliers with 2.5 V6 and 2.0 16 V engines) that have met their maker that way.
sorry, you are both right and wrong. the 2.5 V6 fitted to the omega has an aux belt driven water pump. Failure of the water pump will NOT damage the cambelt. 4 pot VX power units do have a cambelt driven water pump so water pump failure may damage the cambelt. Mr DTM's advice to you is therefore correct in this case
Ah, thank you for clearing that one up. So the engine in the Cavalier/Vectra has a different water pump drive arrangement then?
No, the Cavalier had a C25XE, the Vectra had an X25Xe, all of which have an aux belt driven water pump
I was probably thinking about the 2.0 litre engines, which I am sure have a cam belt driven water pump. :-[
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2) I don't entirely agree regarding the water pump. If the outer bearing goes then the cam belt goes with it, which can be terminal. I am told that often the only sign of such problems is a slight coolant leak. I know of two Vauxhall's, (Cavaliers with 2.5 V6 and 2.0 16 V engines) that have met their maker that way.
sorry, you are both right and wrong. the 2.5 V6 fitted to the omega has an aux belt driven water pump. Failure of the water pump will NOT damage the cambelt. 4 pot VX power units do have a cambelt driven water pump so water pump failure may damage the cambelt. Mr DTM's advice to you is therefore correct in this case
Ah, thank you for clearing that one up. So the engine in the Cavalier/Vectra has a different water pump drive arrangement then?
No, the Cavalier had a C25XE, the Vectra had an X25Xe, all of which have an aux belt driven water pump
I was probably thinking about the 2.0 litre engines, which I am sure have a cam belt driven water pump. :-[
Correct :y
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And as for point 1), just because hes a 'better' mechanic does not make him an engineer!
You dont call a better nurse a doctor do you!
Do you have any knowledge of the cars history before you owned it?
V6 head gasket failure is very rare, its certianly not in the realsm of 4 pots and K series engines! ;D
OK, fair enough. Common misuse of the word 'engineer' I guess. I should know better :)
Anyhow, I have owned the car almost from new (it was a main agent 'demonstrator' for a few weeks until the summer came and the boss wanted a VX 220). It came with Irmisher kit, presumably fitted at the factory or the dealers, and has been a real gem.
I don't do a huge mileage (98,000 miles now), so it has always had a roughly annual service at 10,000 miles or a bit less, and has had Mobil 1 oil from its first service.
The only problems in this time have been an oil seal on the diff, and the aircon condenser. Oh, and I got a rear door replaced under warranty (after eight years) because of corrosion! Other than that it has all been fairly routine stuff.
NN
So the chances are that its never had a coolant change ?
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I don't do a huge mileage (98,000 miles now), so it has always had a roughly annual service at 10,000 miles or a bit less, and has had Mobil 1 oil from its first service.
Hmmm, that doesn't sound too great to be honest. Did this 'servicing' include bi-annual coolant flushes (and not just drop what was in rad and top up)?
Poor coolant servicing is a killer to HGs.
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I don't do a huge mileage (98,000 miles now), so it has always had a roughly annual service at 10,000 miles or a bit less, and has had Mobil 1 oil from its first service.
Hmmm, that doesn't sound too great to be honest. Did this 'servicing' include bi-annual coolant flushes (and not just drop what was in rad and top up)?
Poor coolant servicing is a killer to HGs.
Oh dear. Wish I could turn the clock back. Too late now I guess :)
As far as I know, the coolant should have been changed in accordance with the manufacturers service schedule. I know the coolant is not orignal as it is now green, but was pink when the car was new. (I thought the pink stuff was supposed to last forever?)
It would have had to be drained when the aircon condenser was changed two or three years ago, but it was green before then so it had obviously been changed at some time.
How do you fluch these systems anyway? Is there a chemical treatement (like a central heating system) or does it have to be done with a special machine?
I guess that apart for the cost of replacing coolant, and the time taken to do it, garages probably have to pay to dispose of old antifreeze nowadays so they only do it when they have to. :(
NN
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I don't do a huge mileage (98,000 miles now), so it has always had a roughly annual service at 10,000 miles or a bit less, and has had Mobil 1 oil from its first service.
Hmmm, that doesn't sound too great to be honest. Did this 'servicing' include bi-annual coolant flushes (and not just drop what was in rad and top up)?
Poor coolant servicing is a killer to HGs.
Oh dear. Wish I could turn the clock back. Too late now I guess :)
As far as I know, the coolant should have been changed in accordance with the service schedule. I know the coolant is not orignal as it is now green, but was pink when the car was new. (I thought the pink stuff was supposed to last forever.)
It would have had to be drained when the aircon condenser was changed two or three years ago, but it was green before then so it had obviously been changed at some time.
How do you fluch these systems? Is there a chemical treatement (like a central heating system) or does it have to be done with a special machine?
I guess that apart for the cost of replacing coolant, and the time taken to do it, garages probably have to pay to dispose of old antifreeze nowadays so they only do it when they have to. :(
NN
Red is supposed to last a max of 5yrs. Blue a max of 2 years. Obviously you'd be daft to believe that, and would change either far more regularly.
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OK, but what is the flushing proceedure?
NN
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Green...hmm then you definately need to check the oil cooler. My 3.0 had blue in when I bought it, quicky swapped for red but it was too later, the oil cooler had corroded and failed in short order. I was told that the red stuff has different anti corrosion properties and that the oil cooler is already a bit of a weak link, using different coolant can push it over the edge.
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OK, but what is the flushing proceedure?
NN
My system is fairly simple .. but common I believe.
Empty from radiator drain as much as possible .. just a tad over half comes out
Fill with fresh water, run for 5 minutes, drain ... repeat 3 times.
Fill with fresh water, run until up to temp with heater set to max heat, allow to cool, drain, repeat 3 times.
With system "empty", close radiator drain, add 5 litres neat red Vx antifreeze, top up with fresh water, run with header cap off and "burp" the large hose until up to temp, with heater on max, topping up header tank as level drops.
Switch off, allow to cool, top up with fresh water. Replace header cap, run until on temp, check that heater gives good heat. Allow to cool, check level.
From this point on if any coolant needs to be added to system always ad 50/50 mix of antifreeze/water.
HTH
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Thank you. I didn't know whether a chemical flush was reccomended. The radiator is fabricated from very thin wall alluminium so one would need to be carefull. :)
NN