Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Robski on 04 April 2009, 19:57:14
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Got LPG and just had the spark plugs changed.But now the cars popping when on LPG,do the plugs need to be gapped down?
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Got LPG and just had the spark plugs changed.But now the cars popping when on LPG,do the plugs need to be gapped down?
I know nothing about LPG ::), but you don't or even can't 'gap' the OE 2 or 4 prong plugs.
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I have just spoken to Rob on the phone.
After yesterday and trying to chase what someone else has done on his car, (the gearbox breather pipe was on the breather bridge for one) he started to get a clonking noise when the car changed gear. He this morning topped the gearbox oil up and now the clonking has gone. Also now the car runs how it should on Petrol but has this problem when on gas.
Anyone with any clues would be greatly appreciated :y
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Wasn't the same bunch that "installed" Danny's was it?
Butch & Sundance LPG Installers I think they were called. ;D
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No-one got any ideas?
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Has the problem just started since the plugs were changed? Do you know what plugs were used?
I have GM 4 electrode plugs in mine. They are over 30K old including 12K on LPG and no problems at all. No gap adjustment required on these plugs.
When you say popping to you mean backfiring through the intake? If so this points to a lean condition. Does the problem occur at idle or under load? What type of LPG system is it? Mixer or SGI?
Sorry for the barrage questions. Just trying to establish what we're dealing with. :y
Kevin
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Has the problem just started since the plugs were changed? Do you know what plugs were used?
I have GM 4 electrode plugs in mine. They are over 30K old including 12K on LPG and no problems at all. No gap adjustment required on these plugs.
When you say popping to you mean backfiring through the intake? If so this points to a lean condition. Does the problem occur at idle or under load? What type of LPG system is it? Mixer or SGI?
Sorry for the barrage questions. Just trying to establish what we're dealing with. :y
Kevin
Kev the car has a long history so here it goes...
Rob bought the car then had the Gas fitted. He says it run great with no problems at all He then got an oil leak on the drivers cam cover, so took it to a garage to have it done. The Cambelt was done also at this garage. From this point on it didn't run properly. So he took the car back to the Gas fitter where he found that the Garage had put the wrong connectors on the gas injectors.
Still the car was running wrong so then took back to the garage where they say the car is running correctly.
I checked the Cambelt Timing and it was hardly out.
The EGR Valve has been blocked off.
ICV cleaned out.
Dispack and Leads I have checked with known good ones, still the same.
I found that the gearbox breather was on the breather bridge, the breather pipe that was supposed to be on there was hanging down at the back :o
The car was ticking over better but almost asthough it was missing very slightly.
Rob wet home the rag me as when he dropped his mate off, he got a clunking when the car changed gear. I reckoned it sounded asthough the gearbox needed oil. I had a word with Mark he mentioned something about with the gearbox breather being on Vac it would have given a false reading or something like that, plus with the oil being low the torque convertor would be putting load on the engine which could effect the tick over....
Anyway Rob has topped up with gearbox oil and the clunking has gone and the car is running lovely on Petrol but like shit on the Gas.
As for the Plugs, they are Vauxhall plugs with the double electrodes on.
Pretty sure Rob told me that the gas is Sequent. Valve type = Europa. Reducer Type = Genius
Rob also says it is backfiring through the inlet when under load, but only when its on gas.
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Hope that makes sense Kev :-?
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Hmm. :-/ Sounds like there's still something up with the gas system. Might be worth checking that the injectors are now wired up correctly - both the pigyback cables on the petrol injectors and the gas injectors. Maybe a couple of cylinders are crossed. I made this mistake when I converted mine. It makes no difference on petrol if a couple of injectors are swapped over. The fuel is still there when the cylinder next fires. It's a different matter on gas though. ::)
Is it raising any trouble codes when run on LPG?
Might be worth seeing if the software and cable for the LPG ECU are available cheaply. That will probably give you some live data from the gas ECU and allow you to switch individual cylinders over to spot which ones are giving trouble.
Kevin
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Hmm. :-/ Sounds like there's still something up with the gas system. Might be worth checking that the injectors are now wired up correctly - both the pigyback cables on the petrol injectors and the gas injectors. Maybe a couple of cylinders are crossed. I made this mistake when I converted mine. It makes no difference on petrol if a couple of injectors are swapped over. The fuel is still there when the cylinder next fires. It's a different matter on gas though. ::)
Is it raising any trouble codes when run on LPG?
Might be worth seeing if the software and cable for the LPG ECU are available cheaply. That will probably give you some live data from the gas ECU and allow you to switch individual cylinders over to spot which ones are giving trouble.
Kevin
The only thing I can say about what you have said is that there weren't any codes brought up at all. Since Rob got home and the problem with the gas has started should he do the paperclip test again to make sure?
I think he also said that he is due his 1000 miles gas service they should fix this problem surely?
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Anyone?
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Anyone?
What do you want, moon on a stick!
I told you how to sort the issue on petrol :y
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Anyone?
What do you want, moon on a stick!
I told you how to sort the issue on petrol :y
And the issue is sorted on Petrol :P have you not read :D :P :P
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Just a quick update,running lovely now on petrol (Daz no more searching or anything ;D ;D)but gas is still playing up but will go see worsley autogas tomorrow they fitted it just over 1000mls ago.Will update once I've seen gas man tomorrow and thanks for the help folks
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Well now it is running well on Petrol it must be a Gas problem..
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LPG is "harder" to ignite than petrol ... so any slight problems with the HT side can show up on LPG but not on Petrol.
Not saying it is the HT side .. just don't ignore it as it seems ok on petrol.
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Just re-read and if the Gas install is that new it's worth taking it back to them. They will probably claim it's the other garage's fault and start arguing the toss but if it runs perfectly on petrol there is little for them to argue about TBH.
Kevin
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Cheers Kevin I will be going back tomorrow mate, me not been mechanically minded thought when I put it in with a registered installer and paying just short of 2k it would be done properly but I now know otherwise.What sort of idiot drills through the top breathers and plenum to attach the gas rail????.
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Anyone?
What do you want, moon on a stick!
I told you how to sort the issue on petrol :y
And the issue is sorted on Petrol :P have you not read :D :P :P
I seem to recall that the car was taken back to the LPG installer after the cam cover change?
If so, whats the betting they messed with the lpg settings?
And now the vac leak is all sorted.....the lpg settings will be out!
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Cheers entwood but brand new bosch ht leads 400 mls max :y
Going for more on the lines bad install now.
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This is why you are The Master :y
I really hope this is the case and they sort it out for him.
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Hi Mark got to go down them lines now mate,but still not happy they drilled through the plenum and top breathers to mount the gas rail,but when you pay just short 2k to a registered installer you'd expect it done right(which I thought it was until daz seen it and thought it was a diy job,think daz sent you a pic of it on friday).Topped gearbox up yesterday as you told daz and its back running sweet again on petrol :y :y
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Hi Mark got to go down them lines now mate,but still not happy they drilled through the plenum and top breathers to mount the gas rail,but when you pay just short 2k to a registered installer you'd expect it done right(which I thought it was until daz seen it and thought it was a diy job,think daz sent you a pic of it on friday).Topped gearbox up yesterday as you told daz and its back running sweet again on petrol :y :y
Yes, the photo is here.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/Marks_DTM_Calib/Poor_install.jpg)
The theory behind the auto box level is that because the auto box breather has been connected to the engine breather setup then the auto box will have been held at a vaccum.
The box is not designed to work under vaccum so any oil vapour (likely to be quite a bit) which would normlay have simply condensed and fallen back into the sump, will not get drawn into the combustion porcess and burnt.
The result is a drop in auto box oil level (was it down much?) which gives rough changes and can (if low enough) result in additonal drag from the torque converter at idle.
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how well does the engine run on DexIII fumes? :D :D :D
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how well does the engine run on DexIII fumes? :D :D :D
Well in this case, not to well.
But that might also be due to the fact that the small breather was left dangling resulting in an air leak!
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Yes, the photo is here.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/Marks_DTM_Calib/Poor_install.jpg)
Hmm. He's clearly watched the Reg Prescott guide to fuel rail mounting. :(
Kevin
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It would appear that the LPG guy this morning has said its miss firing when on gas on no3 cylinder.....
....what I cant work out, is how he knows that!
It has new plugs and leads plus a known good DIS pack fitted (DIS pack would affect 2 cylinders though)
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It would appear that the LPG guy this morning has said its miss firing when on gas on no3 cylinder.....
....what I cant work out, is how he knows that!
It has new plugs and leads plus a known good DIS pack fitted (DIS pack would affect 2 cylinders though)
The system I have allows you to switch over one cylinder at a time for diagnosis.
Maybe there's some crud in No. 3 gas injector. He seems the type who might have cut the hoses with a hacksaw, thus ensuring plenty of dust ends up in the system. ::)
Kevin
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Hi all,Mark regarding the gearbox approx a litre and half top up,then sunday got automatic gearbox on display and all the orange lights came on at gear selector,so turned engine off then restarted and moved gear selector through all gears several times,not had automatic gearbox on display since so I assume it was the ecu catching up now the gearbox can breath,as for running on dexron3 it does not compare to petrol or gas. ;D ;D
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Hi Kevin the gas fitter connected to laptop and told me he was shutting each injector down individually to diagnose the fault,but could of been filling me with crap for all I know(thats why Im a plasterer and not a mechanic)But rang Daz (loo-knee) and got this fitter to talk to him about his diagnoses,so back to Dazs tomorrow to try and rectifie the fault.
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Hi Kevin the gas fitter connected to laptop and told me he was shutting each injector down individually to diagnose the fault,but could of been filling me with crap for all I know(thats why Im a plasterer and not a mechanic)But rang Daz (loo-knee) and got this fitter to talk to him about his diagnoses,so back to Dazs tomorrow to try and rectifie the fault.
That makes sense, and is what I would have done. So, the outcome of this was that he thought cylinder no.3 was causing the misfire?
If that cylinder is OK on petrol but not on gas it really points to the gas injector for that cylinder (probably clogged). I'm surprised that he didn't fix that himself having done the diagnosis, TBH. It's clearly a problem with the conversion he's just supplied. :(
Kevin
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This bloke on the phone today said that there was a missfire on cylinder number 3, I asked how he knew this and he said that he could shut down and check each cylinder. He said that there was again a spark plug lead that had yet again come off the dispack and when he put it back on again it was arking onto the Vectra cam covers that someone has fitted on this car.
The spark plug leads actually seem to be slightly to short, as it is difficult to press them far enough into the plug well.
I am wrong in thinking that vectra plug leads are slightly longer than omega leads?
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Hi Kevin the gas fitter connected to laptop and told me he was shutting each injector down individually to diagnose the fault,but could of been filling me with crap for all I know(thats why Im a plasterer and not a mechanic)But rang Daz (loo-knee) and got this fitter to talk to him about his diagnoses,so back to Dazs tomorrow to try and rectifie the fault.
That makes sense, and is what I would have done. So, the outcome of this was that he thought cylinder no.3 was causing the misfire?
If that cylinder is OK on petrol but not on gas it really points to the gas injector for that cylinder (probably clogged). I'm surprised that he didn't fix that himself having done the diagnosis, TBH. It's clearly a problem with the conversion he's just supplied. :(
Kevin
Kev, I said the same thing to this bloke on the phone but he said that gas is far harder to burn than petrol, and that this number 3 cylinder spark wasn't strong enough to burn the gas.... although it burns the petrol fine...... He claims that its and ignition problem, either the dispack, leads or plugs.........
I have fitted brand new Vauxhall plugs, so will try a set of Vauxhall leads like he has suggested, then if that doesn't work I think the knobhead should eat the car >:(
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Kev, I said the same thing to this bloke on the phone but he said that gas is far harder to burn than petrol, and that this number 3 cylinder spark wasn't strong enough to burn the gas.... although it burns the petrol fine...... He claims that its and ignition problem, either the dispack, leads or plugs.........
I have fitted brand new Vauxhall plugs, so will try a set of Vauxhall leads like he has suggested, then if that doesn't work I think the knobhead should eat the car >:(
Hmm. Is the misfire there right from idle? (presumably it is, for him to have diagnosed it this way)
At idle it takes very little spark energy to light either fuel. If it was struggling to light the LPG at idle there would be no chance of driving the car under load on either fuel without a misfire. If the spark is a bit weak for LPG it would only be noticeable under load, IMHO.
My money is still on an LPG injector. Thing is, he could easily have verified this by swapping that LPG injector to another cylinder and seeing if the misfire followed it. >:(
Kevin
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Hello all any help would be greatly appreciated,Re not running correctly on gas is now sorted out,been at Dazs(loo-knee) today changed the dis pack,HT leads for original Vauxhall leads this sorted the issue of not running on lpg.Before I left Dazs we went for a run everything was as it should be on petrol and gas(happy days at last :)).Set off home on the M6,10-15miles into the journey the EML came on :(,rang Daz he told me to do a paperclip test when I got home which I have and now I have codes 135 and 132,anyone any ideas???
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O2 sensor driver`s side. First one in the exhaust from manifold. Check for loose connector, frayed wire etc
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RobG would that be like a bolt thing with wires coming out the exhaust,if so looks intact to me :y
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check the condition of the wires all the way up looking for sharp kinks or places where it may have been nipped or otherwise damaged.
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Thanks will check tomorrow(darts match tonight)but will the car be ok to use tonight??
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Thanks will check tomorrow(darts match tonight)but will the car be ok to use tonight??
Yep :y
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cheers rob
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132 Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Valve Feedback Incorrect Signal
135 Telltale (Checklight) Voltage Low
From Here: http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1160152415
Looks more like a sticking EGR valve unless I've missed something?
Kevin
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132 Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Valve Feedback Incorrect Signal
135 Telltale (Checklight) Voltage Low
From Here: http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1160152415
Looks more like a sticking EGR valve unless I've missed something?
Kevin
Doh. Thought I was looking at OBDII codes :-[ :-[
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132 Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Valve Feedback Incorrect Signal
135 Telltale (Checklight) Voltage Low
From Here: http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1160152415
Looks more like a sticking EGR valve unless I've missed something?
Kevin
Doh. Thought I was looking at OBDII codes :-[ :-[
they are all 4 digit ;)
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Hi all regarding my 132 and 135 fault code had a look at the o2 sensors today all looked good no kinked or loose wires etc,so cleaned the EGR with carb cleaner,started car up and bingo out went the EML.Thanks to evereyone who gave advice :y :y :y