Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: megaomega123 on 02 April 2009, 13:48:24
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LPG started running lumpy about a week ago. I presumed it to be the filter needing changed. I did this today and still running bad.
Plugged into laptop to check settings and the following happens.
Keep getting disconected with error: no lpg controller.
Updated controller with no change.
The software also shows my rpm as 4200 when idling at 600 thus was switching to petrol at 2500rpm due to the threshold.
Eveything is dandy on petrol although the rpm is still incorrect.
Also my injectors have become very ticky, you can hear them a mile away.
Any help appreciated as cant afford petrol :(
EDIT* Also to add that I have had EML occassionally with code for incorrect rpm signal!
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LPG started running lumpy about a week ago. I presumed it to be the filter needing changed. I did this today and still running bad.
Plugged into laptop to check settings and the following happens.
Keep getting disconected with error: no lpg controller.
Updated controller with no change.
The software also shows my rpm as 4200 when idling at 600 thus was switching to petrol at 2500rpm due to the threshold.
Eveything is dandy on petrol although the rpm is still incorrect.
Also my injectors have become very ticky, you can hear them a mile away.
Any help appreciated as cant afford petrol :(
EDIT* Also to add that I have had EML occassionally with code for incorrect rpm signal!
Do you mean you have updated the firmware in the controller? :o If so, it has likely lost all its' calibration information (number of cylinders, for a start, giving an incorrect RPM reading). I would start by making sure everything on the first screen is configured correctly for your engine. Be VERY careful of the configuration of the gas injectors as you can burn them out if they are incorrectly set. Yours are Valtek, 1 OHM.
Changing the firmware has introduced an unknown that you could have done without, TBH.
Kevin
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TBH updating the controller had no effect on anything. All the settings on screen one are as they were. 6 cylinder and the 1 ohm injectors.
It seemed to happen all of a sudden then got progressively worse, which is why I thought filter. I think the laptop and serial to usb adapter may be the connection issue but as for the actual running, none of the settings have been changed to effect it. This is the 1st time since the problem began that it has been plugged in.
I cant understand how the software, even before update, was reading 4200rpm at idle on both gas and petrol.
Could it be the crankshaft sensor at fault and that the gas is more sensitive to it or is that a silly idea?
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Could it be the crankshaft sensor at fault and that the gas is more sensitive to it or is that a silly idea?
Nope. Not a silly idea at all. A quick paperclip test will tell you if you have a crank sensor issue.
Is the LPG RPM indication stable or all over the place?
Kevin
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RPM is stable but reading at almost x10 600rpm is coming out at 4200
I have done paperclip before and always comes back with incorrect rpm signal. Cant remember the code. I am working tonight but have all day tomorrow to tinker and will get an alternative laptop too.
I don't want to be chucking money at unneccasary parts so your help is very much appreciated. :y
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LPG system is using the same RPM signal as your tachometer so something is amiss there but a duff crank sensor needs sorting anyway. If you're getting a code 19 it points to a duff crank sensor.
Kevin
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LPG system is using the same RPM signal as your tachometer so something is amiss there but a duff crank sensor needs sorting anyway. If you're getting a code 19 it points to a duff crank sensor.
Kevin
Agreed... But the LPG issue could be as simple as a loose connection or faulty setting. Check the codes before doing anything else!
Just out of interest... When were the plugs last changed?
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Plugs are around 20000 miles in.
It was code 19 that I was getting but I got an eml flash yesterday on gas so will check it again once I wake up properly.
It takes a longer turn of the key to get started these days but runs perfect on petrol.
It feels like a misfire on gas.
Going to connect it to a different laptop today and read eml codes so will post back results.
How much is a crankshaft sensor from vauxhall? What is the part number?
I presume it is this one
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CRANK-SHAFT-SENSOR-VAUXHALL-OMEGA-1994-2004_W0QQitemZ270340457644QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item270340457644&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318
Thanks for the help ;)
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Difficult starting is a classic crank sensor symptom. Replace it before it leaves you standing.
There are several types of connector on the sensors. Best to find the connector (behind passenger side cylinder head) and confirm type before ordering one.
Kevin
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Managed to paper clip it again and getting code 19
Tried an xp laptop and stayed connected to auto calibrate. Same problem exists and an over reading of rpm.
I think it is time for the crank sensor. Oh well its not bad, 134000 on the original :y I'll get back once this has been changed and conclude if this is the problem with the gas also.
Many thanks for your help.
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I wouldn't have auto-calibrated the LPG with a problem present - because it will now have made a mess of the settings that used to work OK before the crank sensor packed up.
Change the crank sensor and verify that it's driving OK on petrol, then revisit the LPG system if it hasn't already resolved that problem too.
Kevin
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Put a tenner of gas in today and did a 30 mile trip. Car pulled well. The only issue seems to be under 3000rpm and idle which are hesitant and lumpy respectively.
As it runs perfect on petrol, could it be an injector issue as opposed to the crankshaft sensor. I am changing the crankshaft sensor anyway but think there may be a coincidental lpg problem.
An example of the hesitancy is 4th gear 3000rpm then foot down, you can feel a sort of engine braking followed by a surge of power then repeated.
Idle feels like oil in plug wells - which there isn't.
Any clues from that?? ;)
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Hmmm... If it did it on petrol too I'd have said it was an air/vacuum leak but just on LPG seems strange :-/ :-/
It's the over-reading that doesn't make sense, unless the RPM pickup is set incorrectly
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Hmmm... If it did it on petrol too I'd have said it was an air/vacuum leak but just on LPG seems strange :-/ :-/
It's the over-reading that doesn't make sense, unless the RPM pickup is set incorrectly
It is strange considering it has always read it perfectly then all of a sudden reads it at 8 fold ::)
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Hmmm... If it did it on petrol too I'd have said it was an air/vacuum leak but just on LPG seems strange :-/ :-/
It's the over-reading that doesn't make sense, unless the RPM pickup is set incorrectly
It is strange considering it has always read it perfectly then all of a sudden reads it at 8 fold ::)
Have you accidentally changed any settings?
Any work been done recently which may have disturbed the wiring?
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No recent work except the xenon level sensor front wishbone. No settings were changed prior to the problem arising. Plenty have been changed now trying to rectify, its got slightly better as opposed to worse. The filter was changed after the bad running but made no difference. As said previously, I suspected filter due to the way it was running - periods of fuel starvation then fine.
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Did this all start fairly suddenly or was there a gradual deterioration in it?
How old is the conversion?
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started pretty much suddenly. Having had a think, I remember also putting in some redex for emission before MOT. It started soon after but I cant see that being a link or cause.
Installation only about 18 months in.
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Did you fill up with gas anywhere different?
Doesn't explain the strange RPM signal but could have caused rough running
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Got my gas from the same 2 places, no previous issues.
How easy is it to get to and check and clean the injectors? I take it there are no pressurization issues to deal with as I changed the filter with no need of depressurizing.
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Got my gas from the same 2 places, no previous issues.
How easy is it to get to and check and clean the injectors? I take it there are no pressurization issues to deal with as I changed the filter with no need of depressurizing.
I've never actually needed to take these injectors apart but apparently they can be serviced. Firstly, though, try switching individual cylinders to gas using the Stag software to see if you can pin down which of the cylinder(s) is causing a problem. If it's not possible to pin it to a single cylinder I doubt it's an injector problem, TBH.
.. and there's still the erroneous RPM indication. Can you perhaps post a screen shot of the configuration screen from the Stag software? IIRC, there are a couple of parameters related to the RPM input.
Another option might be to save all the settings and the shape of the map graph (taking screenshots seems to be the best way - saving the settings doesn't work!) then do a factory reset on the LPG controller and reconfigure it from scratch. Just maybe it has got its' knickers in a twist somehow.
Another thing to check is the security of the supply connections to the LPG ECU (IIRC we wired them straight to the battery terminals on this one). If the negative has worked loose it might explain the bad RPM signal.
Kevin
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I am sorry I wasn't aware that you had installed this with James. I haven't got laptop access until the weekend but will certainly post some screen shots.
I accidentally reset factory settings a while back and had to go from scratch. The difficult part was on the settings screen where the components are defined. I couldn't find the components or corresponding number i.e ps-01 so that was guess work until it ran smooth.
Ill take a look at the wiring connections shortly and ensure all are tight and intact and post back after. :y
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Ok just had a little look around here and battery connections ok except there was one single thin wire with a blade connection not connected to anything. Found the corresponding blade on a 2amp fuse, so connected these with no change.
There is a definite smell of gas coming from the passenger bank, it wafts up around the ICV area. There is no smell on the other bank. I think this may suggest a leak. Where is the most likely place for a leak to occur in that area?
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Had a similar symptoms with a Stag ECU on an AMG Merc. We added an extra earth to the ECU casing which fixed it for a couple of months. The problem in the end was a faulty ECU :-/
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Had a similar symptoms with a Stag ECU on an AMG Merc. We added an extra earth to the ECU casing which fixed it for a couple of months. The problem in the end was a faulty ECU :-/
I could add an earth as it is just sat in the scuttle and not mounted to body. Not to good on electrics! Is it just a case of adding an earth lead to the ECU casing then to a suitable ground point?
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Yep, stick a nut & bolt through the fixing hole on the ecu with a wire straight to a good earth on the body work.
... might be worth waiting for the gas smell to go before you start!
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Thanks, it wont do any harm. Just the suspected leak to deal with now. :y
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Thanks, it wont do any harm. Just the suspected leak to deal with now. :y
The leak is confusing me. Nothing LPG down the passenger side at all. Just the injectors mounted on the top of the plenum IIRC.
Kevin
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Thanks, it wont do any harm. Just the suspected leak to deal with now. :y
The leak is confusing me. Nothing LPG down the passenger side at all. Just the injectors mounted on the top of the plenum IIRC.
Kevin
Yeah, it's just the injectors and the pipes running down under the plenum.
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I can smell gas in the car too, which is obviously coming in through the vents. Only passenger bank is smelling!!
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Ok. I have added an earth lead to the ECU, no change. I serviced my original filter and put that back on, no change.
LPG seems to run fine above 2500 rpm anything below that is lumpy and misfire like. Also blanked EGR whilst there and no change.
I am at a bit of a loss now. I can get it back on the laptop on Friday so will post some screenshots.
Any thoughts or ideas welcome.
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If you've got a smell of gas then there is a leak somewhere!
Yesterday we replaced the injector pipes on Johnnycboy's 2.5 and I was shocked at the state of them! Bearing in mind his was professionally converted about 8 months ago the injector pipes were perished and cracked already! :o :o :o
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If you've got a smell of gas then there is a leak somewhere!
Yesterday we replaced the injector pipes on Johnnycboy's 2.5 and I was shocked at the state of them! Bearing in mind his was professionally converted about 8 months ago the injector pipes were perished and cracked already! :o :o :o
I think thats the way to go. Down the passenger bank. I kinked the pipes from injectors yesterday to see if it affected engine tone and running and number 4 seemed to make little difference when kinked.
I couldn't get the blasted accelerator cable off it's ball, I think its been squeezed tight grrr it's very soft and I don't want to damage it. Need to set aside a day for this I think.
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If you've got a smell of gas then there is a leak somewhere!
Yesterday we replaced the injector pipes on Johnnycboy's 2.5 and I was shocked at the state of them! Bearing in mind his was professionally converted about 8 months ago the injector pipes were perished and cracked already! :o :o :o
I think thats the way to go. Down the passenger bank. I kinked the pipes from injectors yesterday to see if it affected engine tone and running and number 4 seemed to make little difference when kinked.
I couldn't get the blasted accelerator cable off it's ball, I think its been squeezed tight grrr it's very soft and I don't want to damage it. Need to set aside a day for this I think.
Neither could I on mine... In the end I left it attached and just moved everything about to make room ::) ::)
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Had the LPG on the laptop today. Found out that the overly high rpm was down to the coil setting, which is now correct and reading true. This would also discount the crankshaft sensor as being the problem.
I switched off each injector in turn and found that with no.4 turned off it idles and runs perfectly.
Can I conclude that there is a leak at no.4 or that the injector is goosed?
I have posted some screenshots of the software whilst at idle. Maybe Kevin Wood may like to check them for me :y
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g135/phate123/map.jpg)
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g135/phate123/parameters.jpg)
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g135/phate123/settings.jpg)
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Do I recall you mentioning a smell of gas?
Screen shots seem to be OK, although (and it's difficult to tell from a snapshot) it looks like your Lambda sensors may be playing up... I've got a lazy one and I think it's the heater which has packed up as it's fine at anything other than idle ::) ::)
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Gas temperature looks a little high. Maybe the setting for that sensor is wrong? (there's certainly one that had to be changed from the default).
If you've got a smell of gas and a misfire on no.4 it might be worth taking the plenum off and making sure all is well with the pipe down to the nozzle. Failing that maybe the injector for that cylinder is blocked or in need of a clean. I would be inclined to speak to Jeremy / Teilo about that. Never taken one apart myself.
Lambda activity does look a little erratic but so was engine operation during that log. Does it settle down to a slow switching after idling for a while?
Kevin
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It completely settles if I switch off 4,5 and 6. 4 is the worst with 5 and 6 not tiptop. I think the whole bank needs a little attention tbh.
I have tried all settings for the sensors and this seems the only setup that works. Weather permitting Ill get the plenum and inlet off tomorrow and check all is well down there.
What are the consequences of running it with injector 4 switched off for the time being? I presume it uses petrol on just that 1 cylinder?
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It completely settles if I switch off 4,5 and 6. 4 is the worst with 5 and 6 not tiptop. I think the whole bank needs a little attention tbh.
I have tried all settings for the sensors and this seems the only setup that works. Weather permitting Ill get the plenum and inlet off tomorrow and check all is well down there.
What are the consequences of running it with injector 4 switched off for the time being? I presume it uses petrol on just that 1 cylinder?
Yep, that's correct. Perhaps you've picked up some iffy gas somewhere and blocked the injectors :-/ :-/ :-/
I'm sure Teilo will be able to advise and he'll supply the required parts at a good price :y :y :y
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Do I recall you mentioning a smell of gas?
Screen shots seem to be OK, although (and it's difficult to tell from a snapshot) it looks like your Lambda sensors may be playing up... I've got a lazy one and I think it's the heater which has packed up as it's fine at anything other than idle ::) ::)
I know the vac pipe for the SAI was taken to feed a part of the LPG so maybe it is that. :-/
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If you've got a leaky nozzle hose on no.4 it will be leaking air into that bank, so it will affect the lambda loop for that bank so I'm not surprised all 3 cylinders are less then perfect.
The T piece for the SAI feed was used to feed the LPG pressure sensor reference port as the SAI didn't work anyway. Can't see how that would contribute, TBH. :-/
Kevin
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If you've got a leaky nozzle hose on no.4 it will be leaking air into that bank, so it will affect the lambda loop for that bank so I'm not surprised all 3 cylinders are less then perfect.
The T piece for the SAI feed was used to feed the LPG pressure sensor reference port as the SAI didn't work anyway. Can't see how that would contribute, TBH. :-/
Kevin
I'll take Kevin's word on that one as he's seen the car ::) ::) ::)
But from what he's said I'd be very surprised if that was the cause
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I'll take Kevin's word too, mainly as I don't know what I am talking about :-[
Well I think we may have managed to narrow the problem down at least. As I said, I will attempt to get at the pipes and nozzles tomorrow and report back any findings.
Would it be best to arm myself with the appropriate hoses, in case of replacement, before taking apart? If so, where is the best place to get it from?
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I'll take Kevin's word too, mainly as I don't know what I am talking about :-[
Well I think we may have managed to narrow the problem down at least. As I said, I will attempt to get at the pipes and nozzles tomorrow and report back any findings.
Would it be best to arm myself with the appropriate hoses, in case of replacement, before taking apart? If so, where is the best place to get it from?
Until Tuesday I'd have said me as I had some spare but it's been used already ::) ::) ::)
You'll probably struggle to get hold of any unless you can find somewhere LPG that is open on Good Friday
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Just spoken to an lpg installer and he suggested that the problem is more likely to be an injector than a leaky pipe.
Can the injectors be serviced? If not is it possible to buy the stag-300 injectors seperately somewhere?
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Would it be a good idea to swap injector 4 (the problem one) with injector 1 (a good one) and see if the problem moves with the injector or stays at the same cylinder?
How easy are they to swap? Are they just plug and play so to speak?
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just a couple of small points,the lpg nozzles on that setup must be huge as the lpg times are smaller than the petrol ones,ie way to big.secondly the lnjector times are way different between the banks which on a car i recently played with meant the lambda sensors were cross linked(gotta thank the forum for that one i was totally stumped)
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Just spoken to an lpg installer and he suggested that the problem is more likely to be an injector than a leaky pipe.
Can the injectors be serviced? If not is it possible to buy the stag-300 injectors seperately somewhere?
Yep, injectors are readily available in banks of 3 :y :y :y
I wouldn't start replacing stuff willy-nilly though
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just a couple of small points,the lpg nozzles on that setup must be huge as the lpg times are smaller than the petrol ones,ie way to big.secondly the lnjector times are way different between the banks which on a car i recently played with meant the lambda sensors were cross linked(gotta thank the forum for that one i was totally stumped)
How do I resolve cross linked lambda sensors?
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Just spoken to an lpg installer and he suggested that the problem is more likely to be an injector than a leaky pipe.
Can the injectors be serviced? If not is it possible to buy the stag-300 injectors seperately somewhere?
Yep, injectors are readily available in banks of 3 :y :y :y
I wouldn't start replacing stuff willy-nilly though
I have just taken apart injector 4 and found that the spring had become stuck and almost fused, which would indicate that this injector has been sticking open as it has been unable to return to the closed position with the siezed spring.
Also the bottom of the injector piston is well worn and the rubber o-ring has almost disappeared.
Where can I get a set of 3 injectors?
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Just spoken to an lpg installer and he suggested that the problem is more likely to be an injector than a leaky pipe.
Can the injectors be serviced? If not is it possible to buy the stag-300 injectors seperately somewhere?
Yep, injectors are readily available in banks of 3 :y :y :y
I wouldn't start replacing stuff willy-nilly though
I have just taken apart injector 4 and found that the spring had become stuck and almost fused, which would indicate that this injector has been sticking open as it has been unable to return to the closed position with the siezed spring.
Also the bottom of the injector piston is well worn and the rubber o-ring has almost disappeared.
Where can I get a set of 3 injectors?
PM sent mate :y :y :y
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Recieved and replied :y :y
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just a couple of small points,the lpg nozzles on that setup must be huge as the lpg times are smaller than the petrol ones,ie way to big.secondly the lnjector times are way different between the banks which on a car i recently played with meant the lambda sensors were cross linked(gotta thank the forum for that one i was totally stumped)
I wonder if the short injection times are a symptom of having been recalibrated with leaky injectors? It had 2.5mm nozzles when we converted it, IIRC. Vapour pressure is a little high but not enough to drive the injection times down that low.
Kevin
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Quick update. I have spoken to Teilo and he is sending me 6 new injectors under warranty :) :)
Very pleased about this. I am also pleased that I have learnt a lot about the LPG setup and the injectors. I have managed to get it running not too badly. The seat of the injector valve had mushroomed from where it has been banging on the bottom of the carrier. I chamferred the bottom of it and slackened the adjuster slightly, to prevent it knocking on the bottom so much. The idle is a bit iffy but it is running smoothly, until my new injectors arrive.
Thanks to Paul and Kevin for their help on this matter. I am happy to have gained a better insight into the functions of some of these components. :y :y
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It's good to know Teilo is standing by the 2 year (IIRC) warranty on these kits. :y
Bear in mind that it will probably need calibrating again with the new injectors on it.
Check also that they are the same impedance. This was one of the early kits that had 1 ohm injectors IIRC. Most recently-supplied kits have 3 ohm injectors (red body on the coil instead of yellow, but double check what's written on them!). If they are 3 ohm injectors you need to set the ECU up accordingly.
Finally, if the injectors come with the brass outlet nozzles installed, swap them for the ones already on the car as they won't have been drilled.
Kevin
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I have been informed that I am getting the 3ohm ones so will change setting and recalibrate.
I am not sure what you mean by the brass outlet nozzles? Could you describe them and say where they are drilled please? :y
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I have been informed that I am getting the 3ohm ones so will change setting and recalibrate.
I am not sure what you mean by the brass outlet nozzles? Could you describe them and say where they are drilled please? :y
The nozzles (3 per block) screw into the opposite side of the injector block to the red / yellow coils. They are what the small rubber tubes to the injectors are connected to.
Injectors are supplied with nozzles containing very small diameter holes and the idea is that you drill them out to suit the fuel demands of the engine you are converting. You therefore need to unscrew the nozzles from your old injectors and fit them to the new ones.
Kevin
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I see what you mean now. I had planned on changing just the injectors. Ill wait until I am back at college next week and drill the new ones to the same spec as the existing ones and keep them as spares.
Thanks again. Ill let you know how it all goes :y
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Got the new 3ohm injectors on Friday morning. Took only 40 minutes to swap them and reconfigure the ecu. The car is now running perfectly on gas.
It made me realise just how bad it has been and how much it's been costing me in gas. All is now perfect.
Many thanks to Kevin and Paul once again and I must say that Teilo at motogas is a very good person to deal with. All in all a great result :y :y
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Excellent result :y Glad to hear it's sorted.
You don't happen to know how many miles it did on those injectors, do you? Trying to remember how many it had done when we converted it.
Just wondering how long they can be expected to last?
Havign said that, I wonder if he went over to the 3 ohm ones due to problems with the 1 ohms?
Kevin
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I have done 20000 miles in the year I have had it, so I am thinking about 25000 or so.
Saying that, if they have a 2 year warranty and only last the average mileage then that must mean new, free injectors every 2 years :P
At least with this experience I can keep an eye on them, maintain the injectors and give them a clean occasionally.
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Excellent result :y Glad to hear it's sorted.
You don't happen to know how many miles it did on those injectors, do you? Trying to remember how many it had done when we converted it.
Just wondering how long they can be expected to last?
Havign said that, I wonder if he went over to the 3 ohm ones due to problems with the 1 ohms?
Kevin
I think it is one of the reasons! He told me he'd expect me to get through the 2 years (at 25kish per year) without needing any replacements :y :y