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Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: kingplym on 22 April 2009, 15:46:54

Title: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: kingplym on 22 April 2009, 15:46:54
as i was undoing the coolant bridge unioin bolts the left one snapped/twisted of, the head span off with the threaded part of the bolt still in the block :o :o :o

1. can someone please send me a bolt asap to arrive for tomorrow, i will pay vauxhall said friday cos after 3pm

2. how do i get the threaded part of bolt out? im not mechanically trained in any way i am a lowley electrician please help anyone
Title: Re: snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: tunnie on 22 April 2009, 15:51:44
had this happen to me, how much is left of the bolt?

I jammed something like a coin or thin metal bar across the bolt and managed to rotate it out.
Title: Re: snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: kingplym on 22 April 2009, 15:55:38
mine aint coming lose i think its rotted in? :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: serek on 22 April 2009, 16:04:36
had same problem with mine  >:( before, need buy new oil cooler afrer
Title: Re: snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 22 April 2009, 16:17:09
Think I have a spare, and If so should be able to post tomorrow

It's happened to me in the past too. Hence why this time, I have ordered all new ones, for my next rebuild  ;D
Title: Re: snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: kingplym on 22 April 2009, 16:23:02
i cant get it out? the cooler bridge left hand side? what do i do???
Title: Re: snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 22 April 2009, 16:24:35
Quote
i cant get it out? the cooler bridge left hand side? what do i do???

Can you get some long nosed pliers on any part of the snapped bolt, or carefully tap it around with something?
Title: Re: snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: kingplym on 22 April 2009, 16:35:34
ive tried tapping it round but its not having it. it is really wedged in, will not come loose :'( :'( :'(

i dnt know what to do i am really losing my sense of humor and am getting quite stressed :o :( >:(
Title: Re: snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 22 April 2009, 16:37:23
Quote
ive tried tapping it round but its not having it. it is really wedged in, will not come loose :'( :'( :'(

i dnt know what to do i am really losing my sense of humor and am getting quite stressed :o :( >:(

Can you confirm if there is anything to "get hold of" or has it snapped flush?

Also.... Heat might help.....
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: kingplym on 22 April 2009, 16:50:23
yes there about 10mm to get  to get hold of.

by heat do you mean like a blow torch?
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 22 April 2009, 16:51:29
Quote
yes there about 10mm to get  to get hold of.

by heat do you mean like a blow torch?

Can you get some mole grips on it?
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: kingplym on 22 April 2009, 16:53:43
not enough room to maneuver
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: kingplym on 22 April 2009, 17:33:07
please someone the more im trying to free it the more any purchase sides are wearing away :'(
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: unlucky alf on 22 April 2009, 17:44:06
is there any way you could give it a smack with a hammer?, as this can often break the corrosion holding it & then mole grip it out ;)
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: albitz on 22 April 2009, 18:33:52
I would spray penetrating oil(not wd40) on it and leave for an hour or so,then tap the top of it with a hammer sharply to try to crack the corrosion,then try turning it.
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: Richard148 on 22 April 2009, 18:41:26
can you get in to drill it if so put a a small hole down the center say 10mm and try a screwthread extactor
http://www.mytoolstore.com/hanson/extractr.html

i hope this is of some use :)
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 22 April 2009, 18:41:40
If all else fails, get a small hacksaw blade and run a cut down the centre of the bolt. Dont go to far.

It might slightly damage the head threads but, this wont matter.

This should remove the tension and allow you to remvoe it (you can always do a second cut opposite to make it easier)

When you re-fit, put a smear of sealent on the threads.
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: kingplym on 22 April 2009, 18:43:30
just tried the hammer banger trick to no avail >:( :'(

what is this penertrating oil, what brand and where from? :-?

thanx
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: Welung666 on 22 April 2009, 18:44:43
Quote
just tried the hammer banger trick to no avail >:( :'(

what is this penertrating oil, what brand and where from? :-?

thanx

Plusgas from any hardware store :y
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: Richard148 on 22 April 2009, 18:49:33
Quote
Quote
just tried the hammer banger trick to no avail >:( :'(

what is this penertrating oil, what brand and where from? :-?

thanx

Plusgas from any hardware store :y
wd 40 is similar but may be not as affective
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: kingplym on 22 April 2009, 18:50:38
ok thanx, i think ill try the hacksaw route as that seems to be a definate answer or should i get plusgas aswell? how much is plusgas? :-?
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: Welung666 on 22 April 2009, 18:52:00
Quote
ok thanx, i think ill try the hacksaw route as that seems to be a definate answer or should i get plusgas aswell? how much is plusgas? :-?

Roughly the same price as WD40 shite ;)
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: Richard148 on 22 April 2009, 18:55:48
  ::)::)
Quote
Quote
ok thanx, i think ill try the hacksaw route as that seems to be a definate answer or should i get plusgas aswell? how much is plusgas? :-?

Roughly the same price as WD40 shite ;)
not everyone carries plusgas as stock in the home but more do of wd even if it is less effective still worth trying ::) ::)
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: kingplym on 22 April 2009, 19:11:41
good point rich i think i spray with the wd and leave it over night i have really lost my sense of humour with this now :-[ :'( :-/

thanx :y
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 22 April 2009, 19:12:25
WD40 is not a good penetrating fluid (in fact its shite!).....petrol mixed with oil is better....in fact most things are better!
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 22 April 2009, 19:13:06
Quote
good point rich i think i spray with the wd and leave it over night i have really lost my sense of humour with this now :-[ :'( :-/

thanx :y


If ts seized like you say then I doubt a penetrant will do much....WD40 will certainly do nothing
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: sassanach on 22 April 2009, 20:24:24
do you have access to a mig welder?
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: kingplym on 22 April 2009, 20:44:05
no access to mig welder? what would one do with such a thing? :-? :-? :-?
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: M0T0RVATE on 22 April 2009, 20:46:02
Quote
good point rich i think i spray with the wd and leave it over night i have really lost my sense of humour with this now :-[ :'( :-/

thanx :y


That and a pair of molegrips would be my first choice...
Good luck with it, that sort of thing is a pain... :(

 :y
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: Andy B on 22 April 2009, 20:46:35
Quote
no access to mig welder? what would one do with such a thing? :-? :-? :-?

Weld a piece of steel across what you have left sticking out. Heat helps to release the renants of the union & gives you something to get hold of with your grips/spanner etc.
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: kingplym on 22 April 2009, 20:48:25
ah where once i was blind now i can see! i use the mig welder to weld the miggy ;D :y
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: Bent valve on 22 April 2009, 21:15:48
 A trick I have used in the past on snapped banjo bolts on hydraulic systems, is to find an allen key which is slightly larger across the diagonal of the hexagon than the inside diameter of the snapped bolt and tap it in with a hammer.
 You can then try to work it backwards and forwards gently after applying some good penetrating oil.

 You may be able to get a replacement bolt tomorrow from a hydraulic hose specialist, I THINK it is a 3/8 BSP Banjo bolt, although it could be a metric equivalent.  take your other one along to match it up.
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: kingplym on 23 April 2009, 06:48:53
thanx bentvalve i just might give that a go ;) :y :y
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: kingplym on 23 April 2009, 11:27:57
ok leaving it too soak in wd to try n loosen it hasnt worked.

i banged a 10mm allen key down the centre or the bolt and promptley broke a 11mm socket trying to turn the allen key.

i am unable to fit a standard size hacksaw blade down the centre of the bolt and trying to use a junior blade is a joke, and as stated in previous post again i am losing my sense of humour with this!!!

please someone help :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: M0T0RVATE on 23 April 2009, 11:45:36
Anyone got any idea if a nut splitter will help...
Possibly will help get the bit out by splitting and distorting it...???
Then use pliers to pull/twist it out...

 :question

Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 23 April 2009, 11:56:54
I have been following this thread with interest, seeing what others have recommended.

However, one thing that no one has yet mentioned is a trick I have unfortunately had to use in the past.  That is cut the stud / bolt flush and drill it out using a bit that is smaller than the diameter of the stud, and maybe drilling pilot holes in sequence. Takes some effort and patience, yes, but does, if careful, extracts the bolt cleanly.  

It may of course be necessary to re-tap the hole.

Just an idea amongst many it seems, and assuming there is not enough room for a stud extractor to be used.! ::) ;) ;)
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 23 April 2009, 12:01:22
Stud extractor is not a good idea (coz there shite, hard and seem to always snap!), the allen key method is a little iffy as the hollow bolt walls are thin and both these methods will force the walls of the bolt tighter against the head.

As said, its a saw job.....
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 23 April 2009, 12:04:15
Quote
Stud extractor is not a good idea (coz there shite, hard and seem to always snap!), the allen key method is a little iffy as the hollow bolt walls are thin and both these methods will force the walls of the bolt tighter against the head.

As said, its a saw job.....


But Mark is there any problem in drilling out as I suggest, and as I have had to do in the past? ;)
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: Andy B on 23 April 2009, 12:05:59
I think we're all at crossed purposes here.
What I believe kingplym has sheared is something similar to this .....
(https://www.caterhamparts.co.uk/images/77165.JPG)
ie the hollow bolt that bolts down the 'banjo' end of the coolant hose. i could of course be wrong  .... again.
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 23 April 2009, 12:07:56
Quote
I think we're all at crossed purposes here.
What I believe kingplym has sheared is something similar to this .....
(https://www.caterhamparts.co.uk/images/77165.JPG)
ie the hollow bolt that bolts down the 'banjo' end of the coolant hose. i could of course be wrong  .... again.


If that is the case, drilling out would be even easier to do than on a solid bolt. ;) ;)
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: kingplym on 23 April 2009, 12:13:59
that is the type of bolt but mine has 4 holes at the top of the neck. i think im just gona have to keep trying with the junior blade, with which i cannot get any purchase and feels like im pissing against the preverbial wind :-/
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: Andy B on 23 April 2009, 12:19:03
Quote
that is the type of bolt but mine has 4 holes at the top of the neck. i think im just gona have to keep trying with the junior blade, with which i cannot get any purchase and feels like im pissing against the preverbial wind :-/

How about a 3 square (triangular profile) file? Might take a little longer but will be a bit easier to use.
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: sassanach on 23 April 2009, 13:00:36
you really need to beg,borrow or befriend somebody with a mig plant mate!! :)
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: kingplym on 23 April 2009, 13:02:01
i have managed to make one cut from the inside of the bolt to the thread. still no joy. but i stopped as i reached the thread, or do i carry on. i started to make a second cut but all the little muscles in me little hand are hurting. >:(

still im  slowley getting me humour back ::)
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: mantahatch on 23 April 2009, 13:13:41
Quote
Quote
I think we're all at crossed purposes here.
What I believe kingplym has sheared is something similar to this .....
(https://www.caterhamparts.co.uk/images/77165.JPG)
ie the hollow bolt that bolts down the 'banjo' end of the coolant hose. i could of course be wrong  .... again.


If that is the case, drilling out would be even easier to do than on a solid bolt. ;) ;)


I totally agree with you Lizzie, if it is hollow then it could not be easier to drill out. The only thing I would add is drill slightly under size and the knock out the remaing bit with drift, and have a vacuum cleaner held very close to the bit when drilling to collect as much swark as possible.

HTH

Mike
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: bbacon on 23 April 2009, 13:15:23
I think I would agree with Lizzy.  You are an electrician do you have a welder/machinist friend and or a plumber friend?  The welder should have penetrating oil you could borrow a squirt or two from and if not the plumber may have it as well as a small portable flame.  
I would use the penetrating oil give it its time and then get an extracter and drill bit as mentioned above.  Drill it out set up the extcracor then heat the block with the flame.  Once it is nice and toasty start to back it out.  If it wont give you really have no choice but to progressively drill the sucker out as Lizzy describes.  It takes some patience and a steady hand but you can move past the problem with confidence knowing you can rethread if you make  small error.  Your machinist friend could even help you with that or a helicoil to repair the threads if you really bugger it up.

Good luck Double O F!!! :) :y
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 23 April 2009, 13:25:21
Quote
Quote
Quote
I think we're all at crossed purposes here.
What I believe kingplym has sheared is something similar to this .....
(https://www.caterhamparts.co.uk/images/77165.JPG)
ie the hollow bolt that bolts down the 'banjo' end of the coolant hose. i could of course be wrong  .... again.


If that is the case, drilling out would be even easier to do than on a solid bolt. ;) ;)


I totally agree with you Lizzie, if it is hollow then it could not be easier to drill out. The only thing I would add is drill slightly under size and the knock out the remaing bit with drift, and have a vacuum cleaner held very close to the bit when drilling to collect as much swark as possible.

HTH

Mike


Thanks Mike, I thought I was going to be ignored due to maybe my stupid suggestion! ;D ;D ;) ;) :y


Yes I did state that a smaller diameter bit should be used, with pilot holes in sequence before, and this way the bolt is destroyed from within.  As you say you can knock the remains out, but I have found in the past that the final bit action often takes out the remains, especially if you put the drill in reverse. ;)


EDIT:  Thanks Bbacon as well; we are obviously both on the same wave length! :D :D ;)
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: kingplym on 23 April 2009, 13:32:27
unfortunately i dont know any machinists or any plumbers. so it looks like i will go with your idea lizzy, but seing as someone broke into my van and stole my drill just before i was laid off means im going to hav to wait til a friend gets home from work.

thanx everyone :y :y :y
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 23 April 2009, 13:37:28
Quote
unfortunately i dont know any machinists or any plumbers. so it looks like i will go with your idea lizzy, but seing as someone broke into my van and stole my drill just before i was laid off means im going to hav to wait til a friend gets home from work.

thanx everyone :y :y :y


Hope all goes well finally Kingplym, and I would strongly advise using a drill with graduated speed capability so you are in full control of the drilling process. Also use quality high speed bits;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: kingplym on 23 April 2009, 14:04:01
sorry liz but mark dtm won.  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

i finished the second cut i had already started and with a lot of blasphamy and tears it finally came out :'( :'( :'(

im so happy :'( :'( :'( :D :y

thank you everyone for advice etc :y :y :y
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 23 April 2009, 14:10:01
Quote
sorry liz but mark dtm won.  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

i finished the second cut i had already started and with a lot of blasphamy and tears it finally came out :'( :'( :'(

im so happy :'( :'( :'( :D :y

thank you everyone for advice etc :y :y :y

Oh well can't win them all, and I came in late!! :D :D :D ;)

Just glad you have succeeded Kingplym! :y :y :y
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 23 April 2009, 14:14:40
Quote
sorry liz but mark dtm won.  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

i finished the second cut i had already started and with a lot of blasphamy and tears it finally came out :'( :'( :'(

im so happy :'( :'( :'( :D :y

thank you everyone for advice etc :y :y :y

Lol.....yes it does work.

Easy enough on a hollow bolt.

Been there to many times, particularly on shite ford pushrod engines where teh ploody spark plugs rust into the head (I have even had to replace the head on occasion!)
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: big-o-bob on 24 April 2009, 11:10:20
Quote
as i was undoing the coolant bridge unioin bolts the left one snapped/twisted of, the head span off with the threaded part of the bolt still in the block :o :o :o


Did exactly the same thing, but with the oil pipe to oil cooler bolt.  Luckily, for me, the rest of the bolt came out ok.

How you getting on with the cooler change kingplym?  What did you use to undo the oil cooler pipes above the oil filter - i'm having problems.  Starting to get a bit cheesed of myself now, specially when I can see the oil cooler staring at me beneath only the oil pipes.... :-X
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 24 April 2009, 11:11:36
19mm crows foot spanner....
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: kingplym on 24 April 2009, 14:38:29
yes like mark dtm  said 19mm crowfoot. it is hard but stick with it im waiting ti start my engine at 4pm

i might post if it actually works or not :P
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: sassanach on 24 April 2009, 14:54:41
why are you waiting untill 4 pm for?
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: kingplym on 24 April 2009, 18:06:26
i was waiting til 4pm for the sealant to cure over 24 hours.

for everyone who is interested the engine started and no water leaked out, but.............

      oil ws leaking out the bottom of the engine! :o :o :o

i stripped the engine back down again and my worst fear was confirmed :-/ :-/ :-/

i had snapped another union bolt :-/ :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

this time one of the union bolts that went in the top of the new cooler, happily it just came right out ;) no unneccessary sawing or taping this time.

im so happy ;D :'( ;D :'( ;D :'( ;D :'( ;D :'( :y :y :y
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: sassanach on 24 April 2009, 18:18:01
when i did my oil cooler approx 2 years ago i used "instant gasket" i fitted it, filled it with coolant and drove away.still going, perhaps i got lucky :y ;D
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: kingplym on 24 April 2009, 18:46:29
i was told to use speciffical vauxhall sealant and wait 24 hours. if id done it like yours i proberely have and fitted a replacement unoin by now :'(

any one wanna drive all the way down to me and lend me a union??? :P

ok i suppose i just have to wait til mon :'( :'( :'(

 :y :y :y
Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: big-o-bob on 24 April 2009, 23:22:02
Quote
i was told to use speciffical vauxhall sealant and wait 24 hours. if id done it like yours i proberely have and fitted a replacement unoin by now :'(

any one wanna drive all the way down to me and lend me a union??? :P

ok i suppose i just have to wait til mon :'( :'( :'(

 :y :y :y


Bad luck...It's so frustrating when you have to keep running about and waiting for parts and tools to come, when the actual job seems so straight forward - with the helpful advice from this forum, that is.  Hope you get sorted mate. :y

Title: Re: HELP!!! snapped 22mm union bolt
Post by: kingplym on 25 April 2009, 09:12:18
tell   me about it i could nt  believe it :o :o :o but at least my work actually worked!!! 8-) i shouldve bought all new union bolts when that first one snapped but you live and learn.

hey big o bob while you got your plenumn off clean your breathers!!!  i wasnt going to do it but am so glad i did! :o abosoultly all my breathers were blocked or on the verga of becoming totally blocked i couldnt believe how dirty it was :o my car must have been the equivolent of an astmatic ;D

there is a how to in the maintenance section, you just clean the plastic box on top of the plenumn and the pipes coming out of this and were they so to,  and also the throttle housing

aparantly if you dont so this according to the maintenance section you will blow your rocker gaskets again and again :-[

good luck :y :y :y