Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: star_whites on 17 May 2009, 13:24:12
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Well have just spent the last 5 hours fitting the replacment oil pipes on my V6 cooler due to a suspected pipe fracture. What a waste of time!!
Put her all back together and fired her up and there goes about three litres of oil all over the drive. She fired up first time and didnt sound bad, but not sooner had I started/stopped her less than 15 seconds there was oil pouring down the rear and front of the engine.
Obviously the pipes were not at fault and the leak is still there. Bearing in mind she was only running 15 seconds is it possible that the oil cooler is leaking externally. I know the plate would leak water but what would happen if the cooler fractured at one of the unions lets say just bellow a union. Would it be possible for it to piss out without contaminating the water????
This would make sense as the leak is definatly in the V of the engine so its either oil cooler or its coming out from between the head but they were fitted and toerqued correctly. :'(
Anyone got any ideas ????
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Havin just changed the oil cooler myself (with some difficulty), I would have thought you're problem lies with the oil pipes, or the Hollow bolts and sealing washers that fit the pipes to the oil cooler.
Sometimes the hollow bolts snap when tightening, especially if using the old ones (I had this happen to me).
I'm no expert though mate, so maybe you're problem lies else where.
For what it's worth, I would take the plenum and the lower manifold and flange back off to have a look. If the oil is coming from the oil cooler or oil pipes, you will be able to see.
Good luck mate :y
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This is the third rebuild following both head rebuilds. As soon as we put her together and ran her it leaked oil. It is definatly coming from the V as when we removed everything it was full of oil, this is what led me to change the oil cooler pipes as guessed one must be fractured.
The bolts are not damaged and the sealing washers are new. They tighned up ok and are definatly seated correctly. This is why I was thinking it must be the cooler that is knackered and must be leaking from below the unions but didnt know if it was possible?? :-/
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The other thing to point out is the speed in which it dumps the oil. It only takes a few seconds for it to lose a few litres and as far as Im aware (put me correct if im wrong) the oil pumps through the oil cooler before circulating the engine thus the speed of it leaking??
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The other thing to point out is the speed in which it dumps the oil. It only takes a few seconds for it to lose a few litres and as far as Im aware (put me correct if im wrong) the oil pumps through the oil cooler before circulating the engine thus the speed of it leaking??
Bloody hell....this is beyond me then mate.
Like I say, i'm far from an expert, hope somebody can help
:y
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Thats Ok mate, will await one of our experts to comment and hopefully get an answer :y
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the oil comes up one oil pipe through one oil union bolt into the oil cooler, from cooler up through other oil union bolt and back down other oil pipe.
so if you have replaced the oil pipes you can eliminate these
if the oil cooler was leaking you would have oil in your water
so it must be the oil union blots. do you have new washers top and bottom of oil pipe?
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One thing you might be able to do in order to eliminate the oil cooler would be to disconnect the pipes from the block , then using your old pipes and a length of suitable hose +several jubilee clips you could by-pass the cooler temporarily, start the engine and if it still pisses out then its heads off time again :'(
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Yes I replaced both the top and the bottom washers with gen vx washers. I also ensured that they were seated correctly. Then torqued up as required.
My question is though could it be the shft that the oil cooler pipe union screws into that is knackered. As ive toqued up Im guessing that this is ok. However I have not touched the two large 32mm nuts that pull the oil cooler tight to the cooler plate. If one of these has been damaged or the threaded section where the union tightnens into is it possible that the oil is leaking from there.
Plus as Ive only been able to run the engine for 15 seconds is it possible that oil is in the water but Im not seeing it as Im unable to run the engine long enough??
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One thing you might be able to do in order to eliminate the oil cooler would be to disconnect the pipes from the block , then using your old pipes and a length of suitable hose +several jubilee clips you could by-pass the cooler temporarily, start the engine and if it still pisses out then its heads off time again :'(
This sounds like a feasible option, given the work you've done so far.
Can you try this and report back?
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Will have to try ang get hold of a length of pipe and some more jubilee clips first. I will have to do this to both the oil and water side.
I just cant image its the heads as they went together fine and were torqued down.Would have also though that if it was it would also leak water and it isnt.
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remove the inlet manifold and the spark plugs and spin the engine on the starter,any leaks will soon become obvious.
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Already tried that but no leaks appear. They only appear when engine fully rebuild and am able to start the car, so the leak only appears under pressure.
I had it fully stripped down with injection manifold removed but it would not show leak up. Thats why I guessed at oil cooler pipes and got another set off markey mark.
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Will have to try ang get hold of a length of pipe and some more jubilee clips first. ]I will have to do this to both the oil and water sideI just cant image its the heads as they went together fine and were torqued down.Would have also though that if it was it would also leak water and it isnt.
You will only need one length of pipe and connect both oil pipes together. There isnt a water side.
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doh ::) of cours there isnt, thats all internal to the cooler plate.
Will still be some time next week as need to get some pips and jubilees oh and some more oil. Already used 10lts of gen vx oil. Need some more now.
Wish my tradecard would hurry up its costing a fortune ;D
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doh ::) of cours there isnt, thats all internal to the cooler plate.
Will still be some time next week as need to get some pips and jubilees oh and some more oil. Already used 10lts of gen vx oil. Need some more now.
Wish my tradecard would hurry up its costing a fortune ;D
At least it will have had a good flushing ;D
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Sounds bad mate hope you get it sorted sorry i'm no help.
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i know you can self pressure test the water system by stick a tyre valve in a cap, etc. im wondering if you can do the same with an oil cap and with the plenum and injector rail off etc, get a foot pump one with a pressure reading on it, pump away and see were oil leaks from.
just an idea and im not sure what pressure you can pump it to if you can do it at all :-?
goodluck :y
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If it's leaking this fast, you could probably strip out the intake plenum, manifold and spacer, remove the main and fuel pump relays to disable the ignition, fuel pump, etc. and crank the engine over on the starter while watching in the valley (remove the spark plugs to help it spin faster).
This will build up oil pressure after a few seconds cranking and I suspect the leak will become obvious.
Kevin
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I tried that Kevin but with no success. The only thing I didnt do was remove the spark plugs.
I found it wasnt turning over fast enough to build up enough pressure.
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I tried that Kevin but with no success. The only thing I didnt do was remove the spark plugs.
I found it wasnt turning over fast enough to build up enough pressure.
It will spin over a lot faster and for longer without the plugs
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Ok well it sounds like its time to strip her down again then.
Looks like tomorrow nights job sorted!....Lets pray for no rain lol
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I really admire your persistence. I would have given up by now. (Although I probably would never have started it in the first place due to my lack of mechanical knowledge).
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I cant see it being the heads as the main pressurised oil feeds are on the exhaust side of the heads.
If it was the large nuts that secure the cooler to the cooler plate you would get a water leak, not an oil leak.
As said, spin it over with no plugs in and the relays out for 60 seconds or so to see where its coming from
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I cant see it being the heads as the main pressurised oil feeds are on the exhaust side of the heads.
If it was the large nuts that secure the cooler to the cooler plate you would get a water leak, not an oil leak.
As said, spin it over with no plugs in and the relays out for 60 seconds or so to see where its coming from
The HG was 1 of the 2 things I could think of, seeing as oil pipes now rulled out. Other was cam cover/gaskets that side...
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I think the oil feed to the heads comes up on the valley side of each head, mid way along. I wonder if there are cross drillings from this feed to the main gallery and T vents, and is there a missing blanking bolt?
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how long had the engine stood before you got round to repairing it?
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It wasnt stood at all. I was running it and it had a bad water leak and as we had stripped half the bits off searching for it, when we found it was the rear corner of the rh cylinder head we decided we may as well carry on and finnish it. So we stripped it down and started the repair.
In total I would say we have been four weekends carrying out the repair from start to finnish.
The leak has got to be in the V as it runs both down the back and the front and fills all the gaps in the V with oil. No oil has made it back to the water tank and there is no sign of oil in the water when stripping down. There is also no sign of water in the oil either.
This led me to think the oil cooler pipes as there is no oil residue on the side of the heads or the injector rail/spacer as you remove it. It is only in the V where the oil cooler is. That whats led me to think oil cooler.
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aha ok thats my theory out of the window then!!! i wondered if the oil pressure relief valve had stuck and was blowing the weakest part of the system!!
had it on two engines first one blew the oil filter up ike a balloon before it split, 2nd one it blew the oil seal to smithereens and pumped about 3 litres oil out in about 15seconds of running!!!
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I cant see it being the heads as the main pressurised oil feeds are on the exhaust side of the heads.
If it was the large nuts that secure the cooler to the cooler plate you would get a water leak, not an oil leak.
As said, spin it over with no plugs in and the relays out for 60 seconds or so to see where its coming from
On this point Mark, what if the threaded section underneath the nut had cracked. The washers pull the union down onto the top of that threaded section but I do know there is a mm or two stuck up so if the crack was in the threaded section oil could escape couldnt it??
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I cant see it being the heads as the main pressurised oil feeds are on the exhaust side of the heads.
If it was the large nuts that secure the cooler to the cooler plate you would get a water leak, not an oil leak.
As said, spin it over with no plugs in and the relays out for 60 seconds or so to see where its coming from
On this point Mark, what if the threaded section underneath the nut had cracked. The washers pull the union down onto the top of that threaded section but I do know there is a mm or two stuck up so if the crack was in the threaded section oil could escape couldnt it??
Its possible
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my experience only goes as far and as deep as the oil cooler. I can not see how its possible for oil to escape the cooler without first passing through the coolent bath that it sits in under the cooler cover plate. And if the cooler bolts are sealed and not leaking that would only leave the cooler pipes... and, cam cover gaskits. My experience ends there unfortunately. I would not know where else to look for an oil leak beyond those two items in that area of the engine. If the inside walls of the v are dry, from top edge down from the cam cover gaskit down to the cover plate and oil was forming in the bottom i would be stumped.
As said, sounds like you need to physicaly see where the oil appears from, cranking with plugs out etc.... cant see how it could be anything other than oil cooler pipe/bolts related, or cam covers. As far is i know....
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Well Im begining to wonder if its worth getting another oil cooler to try it out but Im a bit hesitant in paying out £100 + to find out I have a cracked head/block. Anyone got a good second hand one they could sell me on the cheap so I can eliminate it and then if it is it I will splash the cash and hopefully my trade card would have come by then and I will be able to get a discount at last ::)
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Well Im begining to wonder if its worth getting another oil cooler to try it out but Im a bit hesitant in paying out £100 + to find out I have a cracked head/block. Anyone got a good second hand one they could sell me on the cheap so I can eliminate it and then if it is it I will splash the cash and hopefully my trade card would have come by then and I will be able to get a discount at last ::)
Find the leak first.....pop the inlet off and plugs out and get cranking :y
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The oil feed is on the inlet side of the head
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/Marks_DTM_Calib/Headinfocoloured.jpg)
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The oil feed is on the inlet side of the head
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/Marks_DTM_Calib/Headinfocoloured.jpg)
Ok whats the colour coding Mark. Im guessing that blue is water and brown is oil. Whats the red?? ::)
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The oil feed is on the inlet side of the head
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/Marks_DTM_Calib/Headinfocoloured.jpg)
Ok whats the colour coding Mark. Im guessing that blue is water and brown is oil. Whats the red?? ::)
Red is oil feed I believe
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The oil feed is on the inlet side of the head
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/Marks_DTM_Calib/Headinfocoloured.jpg)
Ok whats the colour coding Mark. Im guessing that blue is water and brown is oil. Whats the red?? ::)
I believe Red is oil supply (pressure) and Brown is oil return (gravity)
but I could be wrong .....
Edit .. must type faster .. :)
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Correct
Blue - Coolant
Brown - oil return (less than atmospheric pressure)
Red - High pressure oil feed
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OK now you have me thinking.
The way that the oil travels when leaking both down the front and rear and at such a presure I am wondering if it is leaking from the main oil feed. As this is half way down the block and stuck out Im wondering if it was possible for my brother to have sat the lip of the block on top of the grey cooler sealant (as there is a lot of it) and it is forcing it out from there and not the cooler at all which means I have wasted two weeks labour looking for a leak I was never going to find :-/
I was not here when he refitted the heads so would not have seen him install these.
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I cant see it being the heads as the main pressurised oil feeds are on the exhaust side of the heads.
If it was the large nuts that secure the cooler to the cooler plate you would get a water leak, not an oil leak.
As said, spin it over with no plugs in and the relays out for 60 seconds or so to see where its coming from
Are you sure the oil feed isnt in the middle ;D
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Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah :D ;D >:( ;D :D
Found the little bugger!!!!!!
Good call Mark, have stripped her down on getting home from work, when the rain stopped and hey presto like u said it turned over much quicker with the plugs removed and produced enough pressure to cause the leak.
Sad thing is you were 100% right and it was the head oil feed. Looking at it, the head is being held up by the grey sealant. At first glance it appears ok but when you give the sealant a pry with a small screwdriver the sealant is wedged under the head causing it to piss all over the place.
Looks like time to order a second head gasket kit and bolts and thats the weekend jobs sorted. Also may stand a chance of my trade card coming as received e-mail confirmation today that it is due to be sent :D
Thanks for all the help and advice chaps and hopefully come monday she may be road worthy ;)
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Just get a single head gasket and bolts from Trechii.....
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Just get a single head gasket and bolts from Trechii.....
Whos Trechi????? never heard of them, have they a web site??
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Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah :D ;D >:( ;D :D
Found the little bugger!!!!!!
Good call Mark, have stripped her down on getting home from work, when the rain stopped and hey presto like u said it turned over much quicker with the plugs removed and produced enough pressure to cause the leak.
Sad thing is you were 100% right and it was the head oil feed. Looking at it, the head is being held up by the grey sealant. At first glance it appears ok but when you give the sealant a pry with a small screwdriver the sealant is wedged under the head causing it to piss all over the place.
Looks like time to order a second head gasket kit and bolts and thats the weekend jobs sorted. Also may stand a chance of my trade card coming as received e-mail confirmation today that it is due to be sent :D
Thanks for all the help and advice chaps and hopefully come monday she may be road worthy ;)
Glad to be of help, and the names Mick not Mark ;)
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Just get a single head gasket and bolts from Trechii.....
Whos Trechi????? never heard of them, have they a web site??
Trechii Ltd
01246 280863
Give them a call and tell them you need a single headgasket and 8 bolts :y
Then get 4 dowty washes for the coolant bridge from Vx, reuse you cam seals and cam cover gaskets and away you go
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I just found there website but it shows that they only do complete bolt sets and dont do the V6 gasket??
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I just found there website but it shows that they only do complete bolt sets and dont do the V6 gasket??
Call them :y
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What are there cam belt kits like or am I better off getting a gen vx kit when my tc card comes?
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If thier kits are Contitech or Gates then they are very good (ask)
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I will give them a ring in the morning, thanks :y