Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Dave-C on 15 December 2007, 08:40:29
-
Our son had this acident last Sunday, travelling down a road there is NO Give Way sign on the left of the carriageway and severely worn away road markings (As shown in the piccy) he was only travelling at around 20-25 mph around the bend, past a pub with a parked car outside. As I say NO Give Way sign on the left and virtually NO road markings, I personally could have made the same error / misjudgemnet on an unfamilliar road in similar circumstances.....
Your comments and opinions will be greatly received............
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p43/davec1999/Wasted052.jpg)#
Dave C
-
Not nice :(.....................think it's worth fighting though on the basis of no road signs and virtually no markings, insurers legal if covered should take it up, they will also await the police report. Then there is the issue in my view that he has driven into oncoming traffic, the Police may say undue car and attention ::).....maybe on the basis that it is a t-junction irrespective of any markings..............Again just my view, really depends on what the Police report says. Broocie may well have a better opinion and advice on this one :y
-
One for hotel21, me thinks....
-
yep I would have to agree with hotel21 think its harsh but I still think he will be blamed in part for the accident. sorry..
-
Not sure who's fault it is in this case, but... generally speaking the ultimate responsibility is always on the driver. Poor road conditions, lack or marking, bad weather etc can all be considered as contributing factors to an accident, but they rarely shift the blame away from the driver. The notion is that a driver must always be aware of the road condition and compensate accordingly e.g. by driving carefully, reducing speed etc. Only in very extreme cases (e.g. say a faulty traffic light that is green in all directions at the same time...) a driver would be found not guilty due to external circumstances.
-
Why do people, like the silver/grey Corsa, to the right of the picture drive around on just side lights? IMHO they should be just for parking lights, what ever happened to the idea of dim/dip lights that prevented you from driving on just side lights?
-
In a bit of a rush at the moment to go out so will give a quick and dirty interpretation meantime, pending a re-post later.
Give way markings have a little to play in the crash, but are not the be all and end all, unfortunately....
Consider and answer the following then rethink apportionment of blame....
Give way warning sign on the lesser road on the approach? Painted warning triangle on the roadsurface? Route direction signs on the approach showing junction layout approaching? Finger pole signs on opposite side of the junction directly in the line of sight of the driver on the lesser road, indcating road goes now left and right in front of him on the major road? Double white line system in play on the major road?
There may well be an argument that your sons insurers can take up with the council or Roads Authority who have responsibility for the markings but in the first instance, if I was attending and dealing, its without due care and attention etc for the driver emerging....
-
Hope you dont take offense too this but assuming the small black car pictured is your sons then i would lay them blame 100% squarely at his feet...in fact if i was the other driver involved id probably push for a case of dangerous/careless driving.
Sorry if that sounds harsh and unfair but its quite clear that he was exiting from a junction simply by the road lay out and the fact the way the white lines are laid out on the main road,im afraid it looks like a case of not paying enough attention and unfortunately getting caught out...im sure most of us have at some point have been guilty of not paying enough attention to what we were doing or our surrondings.
Regards the council you could take that avenue,although maybe your argument should be based on hopefully avaoiding a similar accident occuring again as opposed to dishing out blame.
Hope your son is ok and maybe it would be worth getting him signed up to an advanced drivers course,im told there really good and help with obsevations ect ect.
Stu.
-
Hope your lad is OK Dave.
Trying to get the Highways department to admit fault is very hard. I tried about 4 years ago and I was only for a new wheel and tyre but with no luck. They said they had inspected the hole in the road and work was planed before I went down it to which my solicitor told me to give up.
-
Hope your lad is OK Dave.
Trying to get the Highways department to admit fault is very hard. I tried about 4 years ago and I was only for a new wheel and tyre but with no luck. They said they had inspected the hole in the road and work was planed before I went down it to which my solicitor told me to give up.
Bolton Council paid up for the repairs to my sump, but even then they still didn't admit liability. :-/
-
A mate of Emma's, who is a very careful driver, had a collision with a biker in a similar instance. She pulled up to a junction, looked both ways, and started to pull out. Biker appeared out of nowhere :(
Biker was found to be speeding, several signs had been badly placed and obscured her view of the road in the direction of the Biker's emergence but she still got prosecuted. Seems we are expected to be familiar with coping with 3rd world standards of road construction by now >:(
I think if you don't have the right of way you're basically at fault regardless of the circumstances. Might be worth seeing if your legal protection will cover clobbering the council with a bit of grief, if nothing else. Matters will only improve if they get hassled.
Kevin
-
Yup for me its the fault of the driver....under such circumstances you have to read more of the road and adjust speed and approach accordingly (which is what you shoudl do all the time).
There are more than enough hints around to sudgest that it should be a give way scenario on the side road.
Probably more to do with lack of experience, I hope nobody was seriously hurt and learn a lesson from it.
-
Hope your lad is OK Dave.
Trying to get the Highways department to admit fault is very hard. I tried about 4 years ago and I was only for a new wheel and tyre but with no luck. They said they had inspected the hole in the road and work was planed before I went down it to which my solicitor told me to give up.
Pete,
Thanks, he's OK, 3 broken ribs... His passenger had a few nights in hospital, observation for suspected damage to his liver, seatbelt injuries etc We are not sure of the other drivers injurys, we have tried to find out to no avail. :(
Speaking generally now, TBH we don't want to go down the route of claiming etc, we just believe that the state of that road, it's approaching roads, it's signage or lack of, is very mitigating in this instance.... I respect what some of you have stated and it's not as though it's a financial issue, he's well insured, it's not that we want more than we deserve, it's just making the council accountable and the only way they understand is being hit financially..
Keep the opinions / advice coming :-?... It's valuable at times like this >:(
-
Just reread the above, and I confirm my initial thoughts.
Looks to me from the angle of the picture that the emerging driver was turning right or did he simply lock up and run out of road into the path of the car on the major road?
The road layout and the additional signs opposite the road end etc all give information back to the 'Carefull and Competent' road user that there is something ahead that requires additional thought to pass through. The fact that a road user failed to respond to this information, even including the deformed/damaged/missing paint and signs, shows that the standard of driving displayed has fallen short of that of the 'C and C' driver and therefore, IMO, worthy of guilt.
A good insurance company may manage to apportion some percentage of blame to the Council or roads authority for lack of maintenance of signage, however the largest burden of responsibility by far lies at the emerging driver. The lack of any painted markings on the road indicating the give way line and the lack of a give way warning sign are mitigating factors but not a defence.
As said before, cars are just expensive bits of tin and straightforward, if costly, to replace. Hope all persons involved are well.... ;)
-
looking at that, if the corsa has driven out of the junction on the right of the photo and hit the car coming down the major road, the corsa appears to be at fault if the other car was driving competently down the major road, as it hasnt given way, altho its starting to go dark, visibility doesnt look dangerously low
road markings might only play a minor part, as caution needs to be taken at any junction, and as said, the signs opposite the junction are visible
-
Hope your lad is OK Dave.
Trying to get the Highways department to admit fault is very hard. I tried about 4 years ago and I was only for a new wheel and tyre but with no luck. They said they had inspected the hole in the road and work was planed before I went down it to which my solicitor told me to give up.
Pete,
Thanks, he's OK, 3 broken ribs... His passenger had a few nights in hospital, observation for suspected damage to his liver, seatbelt injuries etc We are not sure of the other drivers injurys, we have tried to find out to no avail. :(
Speaking generally now, TBH we don't want to go down the route of claiming etc, we just believe that the state of that road, it's approaching roads, it's signage or lack of, is very mitigating in this instance.... I respect what some of you have stated and it's not as though it's a financial issue, he's well insured, it's not that we want more than we deserve, it's just making the council accountable and the only way they understand is being hit financially..
Keep the opinions / advice coming :-?... It's valuable at times like this >:(
:o He needs to rest in home ..ribs will give pain in every movement for a while ..
looking from the positive side he experienced a crash and nothing serious happened to anybody..
-
Just to clarify the facts, he didn't stop at the junction, he was effectively continuing around a righthand bend at about 20 mph, we have other photo's which emphasise the approach, it really does just appear as you come around the corner, I must say I've had advanced training and hazzard perception appart, it really does just take you by surprise... the lack of the markings and sign are really an issue... I've every confidence in the word of the law as it may stand, but, really if you saw the situation at first hand, pretty sure you'd see why we are pushing it....
Keep you comments coming.....
DC
-
bad roads are really dangerous traps for drivers..Even a very good experienced old driver loosing 1-2 seconds of attention with a busy mind can make a serious accident in that traps..
And my country is full of those traps that take lifes and they are very well known by the >:( >:( road authorities..
They are insistent not to redesign them..Only if someone with a strong teeth bite them they wake up..Bloody bas***ds..
The roads to south (for touristic seashores) are full of them..And thats not enough, they lay pebbles on the asphalt with the reason of melted asphalt
under the sun.But thats much much worser!!
-
Just to clarify the facts, he didn't stop at the junction, he was effectively continuing around a righthand bend at about 20 mph,
DC
well that too me is very very worrying indeed....if your lad thought it was on a bend and went through the give way at 20mph. :o
As you say you need to be there too appreciate the facts but from the photo posted id say if anything id say he shouldn't be on the road at all...maybe if you could post some pics from his route prior to the junction it may make things a lot clearer as too why the driving was so poor.
Like i said in my personal opinion if your lad thought he was still on a bend and doing 20mph then either his not telling dad the whole truth (as im sure most of us have at some point in our lives) or and based solely on the picture posted it looks too me he"s approached the junction way too fast and simply failed too stop,there doesn't seem too be much of an angle if he was still cornering when the impact happened. :-/
-
Sorry to hear of your lad's injuries and his passenger's... :(
As for the crash, again generally speaking you could blame the road only in very very extreme circumstances, in all other events the driver is expected to anticipate (sometimes 'guess', if you like...) the road condition/direction and if unsure, take precaution e.g. slow down and confirm....
A solicitor once told me that if you are involved in a crash, never say 'I did not see him' (the pedestrian, cyclist, or other vehicle, as the case may be) because the answer will always be 'well, you should have...'. What you should (try) and say is 'I did see him, but was unable to avoid the crash because of a, b, and c,' (e.g. he behaved erratically and in a sudden and unexpected way).
As for this one, sadly there are enough clues in this junction for a competent driver to know what he is driving into. These are the post signs and the white line running perpendicular to you son's direction of travel. These in my opinion are enough for you not to be able to claim extreme road circumstances, plus it was during daylight or early dusk at most so sorry but no excuses really....
(http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/5779/wasted052em8.jpg)
I appreciate that he is a probably a responsible and careful driver and no boy racer, but even experienced drivers get caught-out sometimes (I know, I did, more than once...). In most cases and with a bit of luck this will end up in a 'phew, what was that? who put a junction here? good job there was no oncoming traffic', but sometimes it end-up as it did here. Still, could have been much worst... 3 broken ribs and a few penalty points is still quite lucky I think. Hope he gets well soon. :y
-
As many of you know i'm aware of hazard perception as i "live" on the road. I'm glad your son & passenger came out ok (ribs hurt) but i feel the responsibility lies with him. (sorry) Any lack of signs or worn road markings might help lessen any criminal prosecution & points if you've a good brief acting for you, but i feel (even if unfairly) responsibility lies with him.
At least you still have him with you. Could've been much worse.
-
For me, the driver is 90% blame worthy with the council having a slither of blame for the poor road markings.
If it were my report, this would be enough to harm a successful prosecution on the basis of 'not in the public interest' - assuming injuries were none/minor. Would also take into account the driver's previous driving record.
...but for insurance company, I cannot see them contesting blame here.
The majority of factors that are taken into account when driving come from the road ahead. We don't drive looking solely at the road markings. We tend to look a good 100-500 yards ahead assuming visibility allows this. If you're relying on painted give way markings to make a decision to stop, then you would need to be travelling at no more than 5-10mph to be able to react in time - clearly a nonsense. I agree, give way warning triangles should be there, were there none at all?
The harsh fact is the the junction is there but the driver failed to process this information correctly. The view afforded to the driver would have shown that the road was ending from the straight line path. If the driver could not see what was happening ahead, then he would need to slow down to enable more reaction time.
Good luck in any case, at least nobody was seriuosly hurt; cars get replaced easily. Maybe an excuse for him to get an Omega!!
-
Just to update you guys....
Had a call from the Bobby who's dealing with the incident, he's thanked me for the photo's that I've sent to him for the official file. We've also had correspondence from the police hq / cps.. Surprisingly the Bobby and his sargeant are pushing the case in the direction that the road markings and giveway sign are missing! He's using the photo's to emphasise this as there have been many accidents of a similar nature at this junction... This has really pleased us.... Still can't see the wood for the trees yet, but, we are walking thru the forest it seems....
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p43/davec1999/Wasted051.jpg)
Another view approaching the junction... finger posts aside.... still a b1tch of a junction.....
Will keep you all informed...
DC
-
I hope this place will be corrected and will not hurt people any more..
-
I hope this place will be corrected and will not hurt people any more..
I thinks that's the Bobby's plan..... about a mile behind me as I took the piccy, there is an industrial estate and a salt store for the Stoke end of the A50... the heavy's (HGV's) have scuffed the surface, markings etc and even polished the manhole covers, it's trecherous! I agree with many of the comments on the thread, however, I too can see why it and many other incidents have occured, it's probably another case of waiting for someone to get killed before they address it.....
If you look at the latest piccy, on the wall to the left of the finger posts there is a silver Mercedes mirror from the last smash.... was gonna sell it on fleabay ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
DC
-
now I see in the last picture..
one very similiar (Near MMM Migros in Ankara) that a building blinds the curve same style..I was nearly crashing with another ..
My luck was both drivers was having quick response..I was talking at that moment when I see the other car, hit the brakes (my feet was nearly out the car ;D ) and the other car escape into other direction preventing the crash
-
That new picture shows things in a different perspective. There appears to be no STOP sign and you have already pointed out the lack of tarmac markings. Additionally, looking at the marking in the centre of the road it seems to veer off the right, giving the false impression that the road has precedence over the "side" road on from the left. The route signs on the opposite side of the road do little to counter this misconception.
I DID think it was a cut-and-dried case of driver to blame. Now, I'm not so sure... :-?
-
This photo is taken from about 150 yds back the following day in fog.... imagine travelling at 20-25mph towards the pub, I think that's many of us would approach at.. it's a wide junction, giving the impression of an open road... in a normal car your eye level is quite low and the centre line doesn't become visible until you're in the braking zone... TOO LATE!!!
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p43/davec1999/Wasted083.jpg)
As I say I'll keep you all informed.....
We'll call it a Learning Curve.. ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
This is sometimes why I use my sat nav........esp in the dark on unfamiliar roads.
Esp in the country on B roads i dont know.......
Doesnt need to have a route planned on it.......but leaving it turned on and occasional glances at it warn me for example theres a crossroads coming up.....whos got right of way? so i slow and pay particular attention looking for signage.
Another example is sharp corners.........sat nav shows me one coming up in advance.....so again I slow down
Its always too easy in the dark with only dipped beam on to be taken by suprise on unfamilar roads.
I use it as an aid.
If your son hasnt got one..........theres a crimbo pressie idea ;)
Mine is a tomtom......which i have switched on 3d view........so shows roads in a more realistic view :)
-
This photo is taken from about 150 yds back the following day in fog.... imagine travelling at 20-25mph towards the pub, I think that's many of us would approach at.. it's a wide junction, giving the impression of an open road... in a normal car your eye level is quite low and the centre line doesn't become visible until you're in the braking zone... TOO LATE!!!
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p43/davec1999/Wasted083.jpg)
As I say I'll keep you all informed.....
We'll call it a Learning Curve.. ;D ;D ;D ;D
From that photo and the last one, I agree that the signage is poor -- I'd have thought a Give Way with 100 yds below it would have been placed at the appropriate distance from the junction, as you can't see it until you're pretty close. Saying that, if I were driving there and I was unfamiliar with the road, I'd be taking it pretty slowly once I'd got around the bend regardless of right of way, simply because it can be seen that there is some road to the left of that white building, and with the view blocked you can never be sure what could appear from there.
Something I always bear in mind when I was told about it on a Bikesafe course: It doesn't matter whether you have right of way or not, if you're on a bike and someone hits you it's going to hurt you a lot more than them. So I'd be wary of a poor visibility junction like that even if I did have right of way. There's a similar junction with poor visibility near me, and although the route I take gives me right of way I always slow down enough that I can check nothing is going to suddenly appear in front of me.
We all make mistakes though, and unfortunately he didn't manage to escape unscathed and learn the lesson of this one. Hope all involved recover soon.
-
Hi
Firstly I hope everyone who is injured recovers quickly and fully
If I may make 2 observations, the black corsa's front wheels do not seem to be turned at all, although the impact may have straightened them. and the red car seems to be completly on the wrong side of the road, not like it has swerved to avoid the corsa as it seems to be virtually straight. if the driver of the red car did swerve, they could not have swerved in worse direction.
As I said just observations from the photo's.
Regards
Mike
-
Dave - in order to bolster your argument/case, I would suggest taking further photographs as far back along the length of the road from the approaching drivers perspective, showing all available sineage with regard to the impending junction.
Whilst appreciating the curves etc of the road and proximity of the junction/pub, it does not detract from the double opposite direction finger poles and double white lines on the major road. As PaulM says, irrespective of who is right and who is wrong, it hurts when all parties meet in the middle....
Hope it turns out well for you all....
-
These piccys add loads of weight to your argument.
One thing is certain and that is, the second vehicle is totally blameless. Since there are two insurance companies involved, yours will have to admit that the second car is not at fault.
But I totally agree, virtually no painted road markings and on a wet road, in poor visibility.....
If I were attending this collision, the careless allegation would be binned from the outset on your son's part and urgent corespondence with the council would ensue.
Don't expect it to be an easy battle, but I wish you the best of luck!!
-
From the pics it looks like a simple unfortunate accident. also at a guess id say the council will have there backs covered for this, as there is alot of rural junctions where there are no road markings at all.
Personally i would put it down to an accident, as in the end, even though it wasnt a nice experiance, it will make your son a better driver in the future.
-
here is my attempt at what i think the road layout and signage should look like......
(http://www.hagars.biz/images/forum/new-layout.jpg)
oh and yes i was very bored when i done this.
cheers
nathan :y
-
From the pics it looks like a simple unfortunate accident. also at a guess id say the council will have there backs covered for this, as there is alot of rural junctions where there are no road markings at all.
Personally i would put it down to an accident, as in the end, even though it wasnt a nice experiance, it will make your son a better driver in the future.
It's the negligence to maintain, their roadways that have already been marked in the past that we are chasing... We could accept that if it were an unmarked / unadopted junction then we would have no case...
Agreed, hope it will make him more aprehensive in the future.... Suprisingly he's quite careful at the moment after being a passenger in a triple roll over in an army vehicle in Oman.. he broke 3 ribs on the other side of his chest in that skirmish..
Many Thanks for your input...
DC :)
-
here is my attempt at what i think the road layout and signage should look like......
(http://www.hagars.biz/images/forum/new-layout.jpg)
oh and yes i was very bored when i done this.
cheers
nathan :y
As for your artwork....................
You could show Staffs Moorlands council a thing or two. :y....
Maybe double solids would be more applicable.....
Brings it all back, I remember when I was doing my ADI, the instructor had me driving from reading lines ONLY... length of lines, spacing and solids etc, I was sick of reading Roadcraft..
Thanks for you input..
DC
-
not sure double solids would be appropriate at this particular junction, as its not technically the main pathway however a shevron indicating the angle of the turn might be appropriate.
;D
no idea myself, show them that picture if you wish and say thats how it should be done
haha.
cheers
nathan