Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Koomorph on 02 March 2010, 10:09:03
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Yesterday the EML light came on and my dad reported that the car was running very rough... I haven't had a chance to see him or the car yet, but I'm guessing that I should do the pedal trick and get the fault codes... ?
Before yesterday the car was running really sweet - so I'm guessing what my dad is reporting as rough - is limp mode...? The only thing that's changed recently is that at the weekend we fitted the whole new drivers side mirror assembly... Surely that wouldn't cause the eml to come on
and it start running rough - unless maybe it was a different style mirror.. (heated vs not-heated?). I know that it's a heated unit, but don't know if the previous mirror was heated or not....?
Other thing I know is that I need to replace the multiram solenoid at the front of the engine as one of the nipples is broken and so not connected to the multiram. If my dad had given the car some beans, and the solenoid couldn't actuate the multiram (as it's not connected at the moment), is it possible that this would throw the eml - and cause the eml to remain on and continued rough running of the car the following morning.. (ie today).
And there I was thinking that we had sorted everythign out with the poor miggy.... :(
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Guesswork doesn't really help .... get them codes read !!! :)
Then we can attack the real problem.... :)
Numerous faults cause "rough" running .. lets see what the EML thinks is wrong first :y :y :y :y
Paperclip/pedal test : http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1189022687
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Yeh, I thought that the code read was the next step.... I plan on reading them tonight, just wanted to get slightly ahead of the game.... ;)
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Other thing I know is that I need to replace the multiram solenoid at the front of the engine as one of the nipples is broken and so not connected to the multiram. If my dad had given the car some beans, and the solenoid couldn't actuate the multiram (as it's not connected at the moment), is it possible that this would throw the eml - and cause the eml to remain on and continued rough running of the car the following morning.. (ie today).
If it's sucking in unmetered air then it could cause problems ;) ;)
Get the codes read :y :y
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Right - did the pedal trick test and it came back with the following:
0300 - Random/multiple cylinder fire detected
0302 - Cylinder 2 misfire detected
0300 - Random/multiple cylinder fire detected
0302 - Cylinder 2 misfire detected
I then replaced the multiram solenoid.
Fired her up - and although with the bonnet up - the engine sounds quite fine.... when you walk to the exahust end, there is a distinct and very regular "tut..tut..tut..tut..tut.." sound that wasn't there before... :-[
Didn't give her a drive to feel/hear what she sounds like when moving.... but at idle... there's definatly a fault.
So... where to start gents..? As always, really appreciate your advice.
Cheers
Raf :)
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Right - did the pedal trick test and it came back with the following:
0300 - Random/multiple cylinder fire detected
0302 - Cylinder 2 misfire detected
0300 - Random/multiple cylinder fire detected
0302 - Cylinder 2 misfire detected
I then replaced the multiram solenoid.
Fired her up - and although with the bonnet up - the engine sounds quite fine.... when you walk to the exahust end, there is a distinct and very regular "tut..tut..tut..tut..tut.." sound that wasn't there before... :-[
Didn't give her a drive to feel/hear what she sounds like when moving.... but at idle... there's definatly a fault.
So... where to start gents..? As always, really appreciate your advice.
Cheers
Raf :)
Hi Raf, when my 2.6 reported similar codes, it was due to failure of the coil pack.... Mine failed due to water ingress from under the plenum, and into the pug wells, causing them to fill up with water, and eventually destroying the coil pack. Water coming from wiper hole in scuttle drain. Might not be the case with yours, but I'd certainly be looking at the 2-4-6 coil pack & the plugs :y
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Yep, my passenger-side coil pack was full of water and producing misfire fault codes as well, due to water dripping through a gap in the plastic scuttle. Well worth whipping it off for a look
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Thanks mate - spotted your post around Christmas time and how you go a new coil pack for that back... guess it cured the problem??
Is 2-4-6 the left bank when you look at the engine from the front of the car?
When Daz did the cam covers last month, we changed the plugs for brand new ones - the wells in both banks were totally full up with oil - you couldn't even see the spark plugs... :o The surrounding rubber for the plug on the left side of the engine (as looking at it from the front) furthest away from you (nearest the scuttle) had all but totally disintegrated away.... I'm guessing from being submerged in hot oil for quite a few months....
Not sure about any water - can't see any aroudn the banks or coil packs...
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I replaced the passenger side bank coil pack (think it's 2-4-6, there's a sticker on the engine bay to tell you) well before Xmas because it was misfiring badly. The new coil pack solved the problem at the time but then it started running rough again recently. Upon advice I changed the spark plugs and the new coil pack was in a nice bath of hot water! Got it out with a small syringe and car has run smoothly on all cylinders since. Found source of leak as well which is obviously important
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Is 2-4-6 the left bank when you look at the engine from the front of the car? .......
No ;)
1 3 5 is the driver's side 2 4 6 are passenger side :y
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Is 2-4-6 the left bank when you look at the engine from the front of the car? .......
No ;)
1 3 5 is the driver's side 2 4 6 are passenger side :y
Ah bugger.... that's that theory shot then.... and the passenger side is more difficult to replace as well.... :'(
Before I go running off spending ££££ on a new coil pack, is there anything else I could check (apart from water) to try to iron out the problem..... say if I changed the coil pack and it didn't help.... what would be the next port of call...?
Thanks again gents. :)
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Is 2-4-6 the left bank when you look at the engine from the front of the car? .......
No ;)
1 3 5 is the driver's side 2 4 6 are passenger side :y
Ah bugger.... that's that theory shot then.... and the passenger side is more difficult to replace as well.... :'(
Before I go running off spending ££££ on a new coil pack, is there anything else I could check (apart from water) to try to iron out the problem..... say if I changed the coil pack and it didn't help.... what would be the next port of call...?
Thanks again gents. :)
Take the coil pack out and have a look first... if it's water causing the problem, it will be pretty wet in there (as per me & Jonnycool), and the boots will be water stained. In addition, you will see water marking on the upper side of the plug wells, showing where it has been flowing.
Also, although the coil packs are mainly plastic, there are a couple of metal tags at the top of each plug fitting... mine were VERY rusty when the unit failed, and there was some small cracks in the plastic :y
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I've reached the limit of my knowledge mate. ;D
Whip the old coil pack off before ordering a new one, obviously. May not be the problem :y
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Thanks chaps - although I'm sure there's no water there, I'll give it a check... wish that "whipping out the coil pack" was as easy as it sounded.... especially bank 2-4-6... :-/
My dad also needs to use the car everyday at least for the next 2 weeks (for short journeys none-the-less) so I can't risk cocking anything up and having it off the road for any length of time. I'm guessing that driving it wont be casuing any permanent damage....
If there is no water in there - can anyone advise how I can further narrow it down to what the fault may be (or if the coil pack is still at fault?) Would a tech2 give more details?
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Yes, sorry - the coil pack on that side is a bit of a tight job, but if I can do it, anyone can. Just use the guide in maintenance for changing the spark plugs and it's very good. If all looks dry, it may still be the coil pack but I would think that a session on a tech 2 would give you a lot more information
As I said before, I'm at the limit of what I know, sorry I can't advise you further :-[
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I am pretty sure the coil pack that was in a right state was the passenger side Raff 2-4-6 bank :y
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No worries mate - you've been uber helpdul as it is! :)
Thanks Daz - do you think this is the likely culprit then..... ? You thinking of making a trip down south anytime soon.... ;)
I'll get another fry-up on the go.... :y :y :y
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The distance I will travel for a fry up ;D
Not at the minute Raff, but I did tell you at the time that it looked breaked :o and to keep an eye on it ;)
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Right ... a few more questions before I decide the course of action....bear with me chaps!
1) The coil packs were both very oily when they were removed a month ago - the rubbers that go over the plugs were pretty shot... I doubt much has changed in a month, so by removing both packs (apart from checking for water) - I doubt I'm going to find anything different than - slightly oily packs with worn rubbers.... So should I just try to get hold of a second hand unit to test to see if the fault is rectified (rather than spending £100+ on a new one!)... ?
2) What part of the scuttle does the water leak in from? Centre? Centre Right? Above bank 2-4-6?
3) I'm guessing it couldn't be a spark plug? As these were changed last month... ? Is that at all possible?
4) If it's not the coil packs.... (i.e... no water, changed coils... and still misfire) - should I go down the injector cleaner route? Or anythting else first?
5) If problem is still there.. I probably need a session with someone with a tech2... Who is the nearest in the South East to my CR2 postcode.... Kevin Wood?
6) Is the ONLY thing that can be damaged from a misfire is the cat through unburnt fuel? My dad needs to do at least two short journeys a day (a couple of miles)...
Is that gonna develop/casue more problems...
Thanks again!
Raf
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Right ... a few more questions before I decide the course of action....bear with me chaps!
1) The coil packs were both very oily when they were removed a month ago - the rubbers that go over the plugs were pretty shot... I doubt much has changed in a month, so by removing both packs (apart from checking for water) - I doubt I'm going to find anything different than - slightly oily packs with worn rubbers.... So should I just try to get hold of a second hand unit to test to see if the fault is rectified (rather than spending £100+ on a new one!)... ?
2) What part of the scuttle does the water leak in from? Centre? Centre Right? Above bank 2-4-6?
3) I'm guessing it couldn't be a spark plug? As these were changed last month... ? Is that at all possible?
4) If it's not the coil packs.... (i.e... no water, changed coils... and still misfire) - should I go down the injector cleaner route? Or anythting else first?
5) If problem is still there.. I probably need a session with someone with a tech2... Who is the nearest in the South East to my CR2 postcode.... Kevin Wood?
6) Is the ONLY thing that can be damaged from a misfire is the cat through unburnt fuel? My dad needs to do at least two short journeys a day (a couple of miles)...
Is that gonna develop/casue more problems...
Thanks again!
Raf
1/ If the coil packs are less than perfect as you and Daz say (especially the 2-4-6 side) then that's a good place to start. Daz even warned you about this one so I'll bet it's money that's not going to be wasted, whatever happens. Oil in the wells will do the same damage as water ie. damage the coil pack
In reply to no. 2, my scuttle leaked where the two halves joined, which is just above where the end of the coil pack is on the passenger side bank (the other bank was dry). The design of the scuttle is such that it isn't supposed to leak, but in practice, if you pour water on the windscreen, little drips get through the gap and over time will fill up the spark plug recesses, despite there being a rubber seal on the coil pack. I sealed the gap in the scuttle with a tube of bathroom sealant and hopefully have cured it
Oh, and make sure your scuttle drain on the passenger side is clear (by the pollen filter) - mine wasn't and I've still got the scratched forearms to prove it ;D
3/ If you're taking the coil pack out anyway, have a look at the state of the spark plugs, can't do any harm, although I'd be surprised if they're in a state being so new
4, 5 and 6, don't know - someone more experienced should come along soon...
HTH, Jon
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Ok, thanks JC... very helpful mate... :y
Are the 2.6 and 3.2 coilpacks interchangeable... (if I'm gonna get one/two from a breaker initially to test)?
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Ok, thanks JC... very helpful mate... :y
Are the 2.6 and 3.2 coilpacks interchangeable... (if I'm gonna get one/two from a breaker initially to test)?
Yes it is - PART # 9118115 :y
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Right ... a few more questions before I decide the course of action....bear with me chaps!
1) The coil packs were both very oily when they were removed a month ago - the rubbers that go over the plugs were pretty shot... I doubt much has changed in a month, so by removing both packs (apart from checking for water) - I doubt I'm going to find anything different than - slightly oily packs with worn rubbers.... So should I just try to get hold of a second hand unit to test to see if the fault is rectified (rather than spending £100+ on a new one!)... ?
2) What part of the scuttle does the water leak in from? Centre? Centre Right? Above bank 2-4-6?
3) I'm guessing it couldn't be a spark plug? As these were changed last month... ? Is that at all possible?
4) If it's not the coil packs.... (i.e... no water, changed coils... and still misfire) - should I go down the injector cleaner route? Or anythting else first?
5) If problem is still there.. I probably need a session with someone with a tech2... Who is the nearest in the South East to my CR2 postcode.... Kevin Wood?
6) Is the ONLY thing that can be damaged from a misfire is the cat through unburnt fuel? My dad needs to do at least two short journeys a day (a couple of miles)...
Is that gonna develop/casue more problems...
Thanks again!
Raf
1/ If the coil packs are less than perfect as you and Daz say (especially the 2-4-6 side) then that's a good place to start. Daz even warned you about this one so I'll bet it's money that's not going to be wasted, whatever happens. Oil in the wells will do the same damage as water ie. damage the coil pack
In reply to no. 2, my scuttle leaked where the two halves joined, which is just above where the end of the coil pack is on the passenger side bank (the other bank was dry). The design of the scuttle is such that it isn't supposed to leak, but in practice, if you pour water on the windscreen, little drips get through the gap and over time will fill up the spark plug recesses, despite there being a rubber seal on the coil pack. I sealed the gap in the scuttle with a tube of bathroom sealant and hopefully have cured it
Oh, and make sure your scuttle drain on the passenger side is clear (by the pollen filter) - mine wasn't and I've still got the scratched forearms to prove it ;D
3/ If you're taking the coil pack out anyway, have a look at the state of the spark plugs, can't do any harm, although I'd be surprised if they're in a state being so new
4, 5 and 6, don't know - someone more experienced should come along soon...
HTH, Jon
Just to add.... As with JC's, mine was leaking at the scuttle join, but also through the hole for the central wiper shaft (thanks to Tunnie :y) - I sealed both the top and underside of the hole with silicon bath sealant, and that fixed it fine - did the same with the other wiper hole, as that is above the power sounder.
I twould appear that the padding that normally seals the wiper shaft to the scuttle hole comes away over time, and water creeps in..... I proved it by pouring water down the windscreen, and watching it pour through both places :(
As for question 6, repeated misfiring caused the emissions light to flash (indicating to lay off the gas as the cat was seeing unburnt fuel), eventually staying on solid. Changing the coil pack made the light turn off after 4 starts, and the codes 0300 and 0304 cleared after a few weeks on their own :y
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Just been clearing out the garage, and came across my old coil pack... here are a couple of shots so you can see the water damage.... the water rises up the boot, and finally corrodes the metal on the coil unit, finally destroying it :(
(http://www.glenn.cotse.net/cp1.jpg)
(http://www.glenn.cotse.net/cp2.jpg)
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Thanks for posting those - good to know...
I've found a couple of sellers on ebay that have 2.6/3.2 coil packs from miggy's they've broken - but they're used and no guarantee that they are ok ... apart from... "Well the car was runner..." ::) ..... £40 inc delivery.
How much are they new from VX? Don't have a trade or club trade card.... :(
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If you pm andyc on here he's a parts manager for vauxhall who can send you parts at trade club prices. I've used him before, he's very helpful. Don't know how much coil packs are, over 100 quid I think
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If you pm andyc on here he's a parts manager for vauxhall who can send you parts at trade club prices. I've used him before, he's very helpful. Don't know how much coil packs are, over 100 quid I think
Yes, I seem to recall the rack price is around £100... I'm sure someone will be along with the TC price soon, but Vaux-World on eBay were selling them for about £70 genuine part :y
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Blimey!! And they're selling cam cover gaskets and o-rings - full V6 set for about £18!!!!!
Surely that can't be genuine GM... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vauxhall-OMEGA-SAAB-V6-CAM-ROCKER-COVER-GASKET-SET-NEW_W0QQitemZ370107027655QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item562c1910c7
No coil packs though...
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I'm still trying to source a coil pack at a decent price, but thought i would ask what is the possibility that it could be one of the injectors causing the problem? How rugularly dothe injectors on the omega fail or clog up? I ask becuase my dad said that when he drives and applies half or more throttle, the missfire dissapears and car runs fine! I'm wondering whether this could signify an injector problem and if it would be an idea to get some good injector cleaner in there first to see if that helps solve the issue....?
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Any.. thoughts on the injector cleaner side of things chaps? :-?
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Any.. thoughts on the injector cleaner side of things chaps? :-?
My money is still on the coil pack and/or plugs... As Daz said it looked a bit grim when he worked on your motor, and the Engine Computer is pretty accurate with the codes on the DBW models... IIRC there are different codes for injector problems.
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I saw Coil Packs, supposedly Genuine GM ones (Bosch) for £70.50 delivered. Same price in Autovaux. HTH
eBay ones......
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190343811807&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
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OK... thanks everyone... and Di, those guys replied ot me today - geniune brand new VX/GM Bosch parts with 12 months gaurantee....
So guess I'll take the plunge.... Let me know how you get on with yours!
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One thing is bothering me though... why would the missfire dissapear at half (or greater) throttle?
Could that indicate something to do the the spark plug gap? I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm trying to eliminate other possibilities before spending loads of money on another part...
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One thing is bothering me though... why would the missfire dissapear at half (or greater) throttle?
Could that indicate something to do the the spark plug gap? I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm trying to eliminate other possibilities before spending loads of money on another part...
Similar with mine - normally misfired below 2000rpm, and especially at idle or pulling away - stick it on a motorway and it would run fine :y
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Right... thansk for that..... ok.... basically I need to stop procrastinating and get one ordered..... ! :)
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Right... thansk for that..... ok.... basically I need to stop procrastinating and get one ordered..... ! :)
Yeap!
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I know most people say don't buy off ebay because you dont know if it is genuine or the quality etc..
But does anyone know if this 2005 3.2 V6 coil pack is the same as the one found in the 2.6 2002 Y26SE miggy as here ? -
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180477092897&_trksid=p2759.l1259
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Well it's been a week now, with the car driven everyday.... and it's running fine...and no EML (touch wood!).... I'm just waiting for it to come on again.... but hopeing it was a hicup... and no need to spend £70 on a new coil pack.... we'll see.
I do think that when it was misfiring for 2 weeks (and being driven .. allbeit short journeys..) the EML started to flash as the cat was getting a hammering... and that made the ecu adapt something it the igniton/fueling/mapping to reslove the inital misfie.....
Anyway, so far... so good! :y