Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Ian_D on 07 February 2010, 18:04:35
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For the people that don’t know about the problems I've been having...
I've been having problems with my Omega V6 where on and off over the last couple of months every now and then it would start running really rough. Recently on an 4 mile trip to work it would cut out 3-4 times each way :o.
Couple of weeks ago the cutting out then turned into 'breaking down!' where it wouldn’t always start back up.
Anyway, read codes, and there was 19. Me thinking 'Thank god I've got the crankshaft code' - assuming that must have been causing the problems all along!
Fitted new sensor last week maybe? All seemed fine.
However yesterday I went on a bit of a run at a steady 80mph (normally it sits in town with the odd few 50-60 mph A roads couple of times a week) and noticed that randomly it was as if the engine was cutting out for a second, and then returning back to normal. It would do this some times a few times every 30 seconds or so, then I would do 5 miles without any problems??? (This was what it was doing before the crankshaft sensor was replaced aswell as the running rough)
Anyway..
Today, I changed the Oil + Filter and noticed that there was a random clicking sound from under the bonnet when it was ticking over.
After opening the bonnet I noticed that every time a relay clicked, the intake valve at the front of the engine briefly flipped open/closed!
It’s a purple relay that’s clicking, and looking at these diagrams (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1176542235) it appears to be the fuel pump relay.
Now shouldn’t the fuel pump relay click on and stay on once the engines running? :-/ :-/ :'(
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Now shouldn’t the fuel pump relay click on and stay on once the engines running? :-/ :-/ :'(
As far as I know, yes!
It's never been seen as a problem here with Omegas, but it's not uncommon for the FPR to cause a variety of odd-ball problems with a straight 6. :-/ :-/
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Fuel pump relay will click off if the info the ECU's seeing from the crank sensor is not making sense, I think...
You fitted a genuine Vx one, right?
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Fuel pump relay will click off if the info the ECU's seeing from the crank sensor is not making sense, I think...
You fitted a genuine Vx one, right?
Yes genuine GM. (Forgot to mention, I fitted a second hand crankshaft sensor about 9 months ago because the engine was cutting out for a fraction of a second every other junction / roundabout I pulled out from (wasn't a misfire though!). But thinking back its almost the same problem as what I’m having now! - I never had a code 19 then but that was all I could put it down to.)
I still don’t understand why the intake valve clicks with the fuel pump relay? :o
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Dont know if it helps, but heres a list of codes which the car had the day I changed the scranshaft sensor:
Total number of fault codes: 8
00133 - Intake Manifold Valve 2 Voltage Low
Present
00074 - Mass Air Flow Sensor Voltage High
Not present
00063 - Intake Manifold Valve 1 Voltage High
Not present
00054 - Fuel Pump Relay Voltage High
Not present
00062 - Fuel Tank Ventilation Valve Voltage High
Not present
00034 - Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Valve Voltage High
Not present
00033 - Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Valve Voltage Low
Not present
00019 - Incorrect RPM Signal
Not present
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i would say dodgy came sensor, there are a few that go that way do to heat from the engine. would get a replacement off the guarentee, get 12 months. :y
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i would say dodgy came sensor, there are a few that go that way do to heat from the engine. would get a replacement off the guarentee, get 12 months. :y
Ive got a spare cam sensor, but wouldn't it show a code? also would that cause the fuel pump relay to click on and off randomly? :o
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Isn't there 2 purple relays the same?
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Isn't there 2 purple relays the same?
There is yeah. Its the one to the left of the two (as your looking at it from the front of the car)
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Just been outside and re-read the codes....
00133 - Intake Manifold Valve 2 Voltage Low
Not present
00074 - Mass Air Flow Sensor Voltage High
Not present
00034 - Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Valve Voltage High
Not present
00053 - Fuel Pump Relay Voltage Low
Not present
00033 - Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Valve Voltage Low
Not present
No idea whats going on.
Any ideas? Thoughts?
Getting to the point where im thinking of getting rid now if im honest. :'( Its costing the earth in petrol, and im not going to spend £££'s on it converting it to LPG if it wont even run right on bloody petrol! :-/
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Have you tryed to give the m.a.f a good clean out may be its that and thats giving funny readings ever where else???
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From my experience with Carltons and Senators, I'd stick a new Fuel Pump Relay in first Ian.
On those, the FPR can bugger up al sorts of other circuits, from injector voltage to indicators flashing too fast.
Oh yes they can!!!
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Have you tryed to give the m.a.f a good clean out may be its that and thats giving funny readings ever where else???
Its currently on its second MAF, changed it about 9 months ago along with the 1st crankshaft sensor!
I've got a 3rd which im going to fit tomorrow night which came from an Omega Estate which im breaking - so I know thats ok! ;D
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From my experience with Carltons and Senators, I'd stick a new Fuel Pump Relay in first Ian.
On those, the FPR can bugger up al sorts of other circuits, from injector voltage to indicators flashing too fast.
Oh yes they can!!!
Will see if I've got another purple relay in my bag of bits, otherwise I will have to do a 15 mile round trip to the Estate for one ;D
Unless the TD's have any purple relays? That aint going anywhere at the moment! (Another thing which is on my never ending 'To do' list!) ;D
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Just thinking aloud here...
But how often do ECU's fail? Faulty / Dried out Capacitors? Or did the cheap crappy components not really exist back then? :-?
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have seen mention of earth leads causing a mirriad of codes, battery leads and connections all sound? terminals tight, and where the clamps crimp the battery leads are they solid, is it worth checvking your getting steady volts when its running, just thoughts, i'm shite with electrics....hope you sort it.
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have seen mention of earth leads causing a mirriad of codes, battery leads and connections all sound? terminals tight, and where the clamps crimp the battery leads are they solid, is it worth checvking your getting steady volts when its running, just thoughts, i'm shite with electrics....hope you sort it.
Checked voltages across battery when its running and thats all fine. Battery terminals seem fine too, nice and tight. Its also had a different battery fitted to in the last 5-6 months, so I know its not the battery leads anyway!
I will check over the earthing points again though...
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Hi, Sounds similar to a problem I had a few years ago with an injection granada, turned out to be a dodgy fuel pump!
:-[
Is the output from the alternator constant? :-?
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Hi, Sounds similar to a problem I had a few years ago with an injection granada, turned out to be a dodgy fuel pump!
:-[
Is the output from the alternator constant? :-?
I could understand if the fuel pump was faulty, but I still don’t understand why the fuel pump relay is clicking on/off. Even if the pump is dead, surly the relay should always be on?
Seems to be from what I can read with my digital multimeter.
Bit OTT, but since I've just repaired an old DSO (Digital Storage Oscilloscope) I will see how clean the voltage is across the battery... A good excuse to use it! :P
Anything else worth ‘Probing’ while I’m under there? ::)
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Right, I've tested the voltage across the battery, and its sat at a constant 14.0v volts, with VERY very little ripple. So that’s the alternator ruled out! :y
The fuel pump relay was still clicking on and off all the time when at idle.
I was stood under the bonnet scratching my head listening to the relay clicking off, then straight back on again… it was as if it was on for a few seconds, then off for maybe 1/4th second, and this repeated itself over and over until..
The relay clicked off...
still off...
…about a second or two later, engine starts to run rough...
fraction of a second later, the revs fluctuate up and down, and it misfires badly... it just about stalls, and then CLICK, the fuel pump relay clicks back on and all returns back to normal almost instantly.
SO... the rough running is caused by the fuel pump relay been switched off. Has to be imho? :-?
Not the question is WHY is the relay turning off? Is it worth temporary wiring it to an ignition live feed? :-/
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anyone? :-/ :-?
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anyone? :-/ :-?
Apart from the FPR ..... no! :-/
Sorry. :(
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anyone? :-/ :-?
Apart from the FPR ..... no! :-/
Sorry. :(
Didnt think the FPR was electronic? :-?
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Dont know if it helps, but heres a list of codes which the car had the day I changed the scranshaft sensor:
Total number of fault codes: 8
00133 - Intake Manifold Valve 2 Voltage Low
Present
00074 - Mass Air Flow Sensor Voltage High
Not present
00063 - Intake Manifold Valve 1 Voltage High
Not present
00054 - Fuel Pump Relay Voltage High
Not present
00062 - Fuel Tank Ventilation Valve Voltage High
Not present
00034 - Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Valve Voltage High
Not present
00033 - Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Valve Voltage Low
Not present
00019 - Incorrect RPM Signal
Not present
All this lot is fed from the main relay, which is one of the purple ones (next to the fuel pump relay). This includes the multiram valves, which is why they are playing up.
I would say the feed to this relay (which comes from the ECU) might have an intermittent connection, which is causing all the engine electrics to momentarily die. Worth swapping the relay over in case the problem is internal to the relay as a first step though.
Kevin
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Dont know if it helps, but heres a list of codes which the car had the day I changed the scranshaft sensor:
Total number of fault codes: 8
00133 - Intake Manifold Valve 2 Voltage Low
Present
00074 - Mass Air Flow Sensor Voltage High
Not present
00063 - Intake Manifold Valve 1 Voltage High
Not present
00054 - Fuel Pump Relay Voltage High
Not present
00062 - Fuel Tank Ventilation Valve Voltage High
Not present
00034 - Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Valve Voltage High
Not present
00033 - Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Valve Voltage Low
Not present
00019 - Incorrect RPM Signal
Not present
All this lot is fed from the main relay, which is one of the purple ones (next to the fuel pump relay). This includes the multiram valves, which is why they are playing up.
I would say the feed to this relay (which comes from the ECU) might have an intermittent connection, which is causing all the engine electrics to momentarily die. Worth swapping the relay over in case the problem is internal to the relay as a first step though.
Kevin
Thanks Kevin, I will be going back to the Omega that I’m breaking on Sat Morning, so I will swap over the relays then. I’m wondering if it’s worth making a 'bridged' relay if that’s the correct term with one of the spare ones (basically remove all of the insides and bridge the contacts so its always on). Then worst case, if ever I break down, I can stick the blank / bridged relay in place and carry on.
Will let you know how I get on Kevin. :y
Thanks again.
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I have a couple of bits of wire with a spade connector on each end. No need to take the relay apart. Handy for this sort of diagnosis. :y
Let us know what you discover.
Kevin
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I have a couple of bits of wire with a spade connector on each end. No need to take the relay apart. Handy for this sort of diagnosis. :y
Let us know what you discover.
Kevin
Actually, yes that would be a better idea as its not going to be relay specific then!
Only down side is I would need the pinouts for the relays (again, that’s not too had to work out though!).
Will let you know how I get on. :y
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Back to this again... its still happening! I’m now starting to get bored of it too... :-/
I've 'unchipped' the ecu, and put it back to standard again - no different >:( still cuts out for a split second every now and then randomly. :'(
Its NOT the relay that’s at fault as the relay signal from the ECU drops when the relay clicks off.
Tried it with the EGR and MAF unplugged - exactly the same happens.
I’m now thinking that its the ECU which is on its way out :(.
The same time the Fuel pump relay clicks on / off, as do both lambda sensors (they are fed from the fuel pump relay) and the front intake valve.
Another point to note is that the ECU light is on, but not lit up constantly - its flickering (fastish) but its not RPM dependent.
Anything else to try before I stick another ECU in? Besides matches?