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Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Wayne on 22 March 2010, 22:10:00

Title: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Wayne on 22 March 2010, 22:10:00
Guys

it was meant to be the start of my new job this evening at 9pm till 1am, got meself a little driving job to tie in with my bands gigs at weekend, chuffed to bits.....bought £104 road tax tonight online, all set to go!
but went out to start my car and had to use the booster pack again because its been sat there for 2 weeks and  hasnt been used, drove to Tescos, put £20 petrol in, went to start car and NOTHING, got booster pack out the boot again, tried to start it with that, and this time NOTHING!
not a good start to my new job, had to phone up and say wouldnt be in on me 1st night >:(
luckily the manager was cool and said see you tomorrow! Phew!!!!!!!
called Recovery out, came in 20 minutes.. result!
used his proper booster thingy and she started, he told me rev engine to 3000 revs, put all electric stuff on, heater etc etc etc,  voltage stayed at 12 volts and wasnt going up as i revved engine for 3 minutes,  told me alternator was knackered and that he didnt think i had a power drain as i thought, he just reckons alternators not putting charge back in battery and when i use it and leave it for a week or two, of course its not gonna start.......
i have tested fuses with voltmeter, but cant find the power drain anywhere, still dont know if its the powersounder as havent disconnected it yet....
some mechanics are saying its NOT my alternator, and recovery guy said YES it is, this bleeding car will be the death of me

aaaarrrrrgghhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 22 March 2010, 22:14:24
A rather floored test that....if the battery is mega flat and all the load is applied...the alternator is never gonna be able to deliver enough power to seriously raise the voltage on the battery terminals
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Wayne on 22 March 2010, 22:17:19
i did think that mate, battery is on charge now for 24 hours, im really thinking "powersounder" as when i went to start it at Tescos, it was flat as a bleeding pancake, its getting on my wick now, cant leave it more than 3 or 4 days as it wont start, tested fuses with voltmeter, cant find drain anywhere etc, all normal mate....
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 22 March 2010, 22:18:24
Quote
i did think that mate, battery is on charge now for 24 hours, im really thinking "powersounder" as when i went to start it at Tescos, it was flat as a bleeding pancake, its getting on my wick now, cant leave it more than 3 or 4 days as it wont start, tested fuses with voltmeter, cant find drain anywhere etc, all normal mate....

How far do you drive from home to tescos?
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Andy B on 22 March 2010, 22:19:24
Quote
.....
some mechanics are saying its NOT my alternator, and recovery guy said YES it is, this bleeding car will be the death of me

aaaarrrrrgghhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Put your battery on charge over night & take the car to a proper auto spark to get a discharge test done on your battery. Allowing a battery to become totally flat doesn't do them, any favours at all.  ;)
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Wayne on 22 March 2010, 22:20:11
3 miles to Sainsburys, not Tescos sorry! lol -  and YES i know its pathetic, but hardly ever use my car until i really needed it tonight to get from Cowley in Oxford to Milton Park in Didcot, which is 14 miles approx
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Entwood on 22 March 2010, 22:21:00
Borrow a "known good" battery and THEN do the alternator voltage/load test.  At the moment you are working off 2 unknowns .. eliminate one of them.

:)
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Andy B on 22 March 2010, 22:21:55
Quote
..... tested fuses with voltmeter, cant find drain anywhere etc, all normal mate....

Just how are you using your multi-meter on your fuses to check for a current drain? You need your meter on current in line with a battery connection, see what current is being drawn - be careful you don't pop your meter  ::)
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 22 March 2010, 22:22:05
Quote
3 miles to Sainsburys, not Tescos sorry! lol -  and YES i know its pathetic, but hardly ever use my car until i really needed it tonight to get from Cowley in Oxford to Milton Park in Didcot, which is 14 miles approx

Thing is, 3 miles is not really far enough to charge a mega flat battery
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Wayne on 22 March 2010, 22:23:08
when i was using my car everyday (a few weeks ago)
i took it to National Tyres and they were going to give me a new battery under warranty, the guy tested it and said theres NOTHING wrong with it whatsover, so tough basically... not sure what test he did on it exactly...probably the same as every other bugger
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Andy B on 22 March 2010, 22:23:20
Quote
Quote
3 miles to Sainsburys, not Tescos sorry! lol -  and YES i know its pathetic, but hardly ever use my car until i really needed it tonight to get from Cowley in Oxford to Milton Park in Didcot, which is 14 miles approx

Thing is, 3 miles is not really far enough to charge a mega flat battery

that's putting it mildly!  ;)
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Wayne on 22 March 2010, 22:24:36
yeah i know Mark, i realised that, but thought with my booster pack, it would have got me started again and gotten me to my 1st nights work, then when i was to come home, could have boosted it again to get me home, then put it on charge for 24 hours, i just wanna find out WHATS draining it now
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 22 March 2010, 22:25:41
Quote
yeah i know Mark, i realised that, but thought with my booster pack, it would have got me started again and gotten me to my 1st nights work, then when i was to come home, could have boosted it again to get me home, then put it on charge for 24 hours, i just wanna find out WHATS draining it now

well, disconnecting the power sounder is a sensible first approach
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Wayne on 22 March 2010, 22:29:24
okay, will do that at weekend - i am reading through the maintenance guide now, is it really easy, looks a bit bleedin daunting for a thicko like me! anyone done theres on here?
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: manny on 22 March 2010, 22:33:06
Tell me to shut up but i agree with call out guy. With all lights off and revving engine at 3000 rpm you should get about 13.5 to 14 volts at terminals.
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 22 March 2010, 22:36:16
Quote
Tell me to shut up but i agree with call out guy. With all lights off and revving engine at 3000 rpm you should get about 13.5 to 14 volts at terminals.

Nope...if the battery is drawing mega current becasue its silly flat, then altenator will not be able to raise a full 14V...or possibly even get close to it
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Wayne on 22 March 2010, 22:38:56
i dont know mate, it wouldnt go above 12 volts no matter how much i revved it and put every thing on in the car, heater full blast, lights, etc
dont wanna fork out for an alternator on Ebay and it aint that, but Powersounder will be done and i can go from there,  i think im just bloody jinxed with this car! anyone wanna buy it!!  lol
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Wayne on 22 March 2010, 22:42:53
my cars done 70,000 miles,  S Registration on a 1998, CDX Estate in Gold,  i wanna buy something else as i have had enough of spending loads on it, plus i dont need an Estate anymore....
whats it worth guys?
its in good nick
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: manny on 22 March 2010, 22:46:57
Best way to check alternator is to charge batt fully and run engine with all lights off and all electric switches. Then you should get 14 volts at batt terminals.
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: manny on 22 March 2010, 22:48:36
Quote
my cars done 70,000 miles,  S Registration on a 1998, CDX Estate in Gold,  i wanna buy something else as i have had enough of spending loads on it, plus i dont need an Estate anymore....
whats it worth guys?
its in good nick
Better the devil you know. :y
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Wayne on 22 March 2010, 22:49:53
i suppose, but i dont need this whopping big car anymore, lol - 2.5V6 gas guzzling machine!
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: manny on 22 March 2010, 22:56:16
Quote
i suppose, but i dont need this whopping big car anymore, lol - 2.5V6 gas guzzling machine!
I agree with the gas guzzling bit. :o
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: jonnycool on 22 March 2010, 23:26:04
This ain't the best advert I've ever read mate  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Wayne on 23 March 2010, 00:09:29
lol,  whoops!  i did try!
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Wayne on 24 March 2010, 18:19:53
left my car on charge, went to start it last night and NOTHING

booster packed it again after i had charged this aswell, she started, got down the road and popped in to see my mate, while sat on his drive the cars lights kept dipping and the revs were going up by themselves without me touching them...
me thinks Alternator! surely?
its obviously not charging the batter at all
anyway - went to lock my car when i got back and it wont lock!! theres not even enough juice in the battery...  came out late last night while car still unlocked, and opened the boot at 1.30am, friggin car alarm power sounder went off!!!!!!
it wasnt as loud as normal and sounded muffled as it was struggling to get power to do its thing!

I`M GONNA KILL MY CAR !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  >:(
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Kevin Wood on 24 March 2010, 18:24:05
Well, if the fully charged battery didn't start it, it doesn't point to the alternator, IMHO.

Did you check the charging voltage from the alternator once it had started with a charged battery (to eliminate the battery loading down the alternator)?

Kevin
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 24 March 2010, 18:25:53
Its all pointing to a goosed battery....if you fully charged it and it would not start the car yet a booster pack did....then that telling you a story.
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Wayne on 24 March 2010, 18:29:07
but surely when the lights are dimming when the car has been left running for 40 minutes is worrying?
and also the revs going up a fair bit by themselves when the dimming is occuring? i dont know, i aint got a clue about cars, lol
i just want this thing to work! lol

the voltage reading was 12 volts from alternator and was NOT rising whatsoever when revved up to 3000 RPM and everything switched on

Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Wayne on 24 March 2010, 18:32:10
when i say i charged it, i left the battery connected to the car and left the charger pack on for 24 hours resting under the bonnet covered by lots of sheets to stop water getting in,  unless...... the weight of the bonnet knocked the bleeding things off the terminals and it didnt get a proper charge
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 24 March 2010, 18:33:55
Quote
when i say i charged it, i left the battery connected to the car and left the charger pack on for 24 hours resting under the bonnet covered by lots of sheets to stop water getting in,  unless...... the weight of the bonnet knocked the bleeding things off the terminals and it didnt get a proper charge


As already said....you need a fully charged battery first before you can even think of doing an alternator test.

The FACT that this battery which was supposed to be fully charged didn;t start the car tells you that the above requirement has not been met  :y
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Wayne on 24 March 2010, 18:38:17
yeah i know what your saying matey
but when i took this battery when fittied to my car to where i bought it, the guy said the battery was fine when he did a voltage test.... this is whats driving me nuts from different people.............alternator?...............battery.............
round and round we go, lol
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 24 March 2010, 18:39:43
Quote
yeah i know what your saying matey
but when i took this battery when fittied to my car to where i bought it, the guy said the battery was fine when he did a voltage test.... this is whats driving me nuts from different people.............alternator?...............battery.............
round and round we go, lol

A voltage test will tell you nowt....if it has a high resistance cell then it will give a good voltage reading and not start a car.

It needs a proper drop test!

But, forget alternator until you have a charged and working battery
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Kevin Wood on 24 March 2010, 18:40:31
Wayne, You're just adding to the uncertainties here, which is not bringing us closer to a diagnosis.  ;)

Put the charger on it and make sure the battery has without doubt had the opportunity to take a decent amount of charge.

If it won't start with a fully charged battery, but will from a jump start, then it can only point to the battery.

A faulty battery could be loading the alternator and causing the other effects that you are seeing. Eliminate the battery first, then see where we are.  :y

Kevin
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Wayne on 24 March 2010, 18:41:37
OKAY

i will take the battery out of its housing and leave it charging for the weekend, instea dof doing it while attached to the car..
then go from there, if it drains which i know it will do, then i just dont know

powersounder probably
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Wayne on 24 March 2010, 18:44:45
thanks guys, im off to Germany in the morning, driving there in our band wagon to play "Bon Jovi" for the british troops over in hamlyn,  ;D
so on my return i can have a play and finally put this matter to rest..... its driving me nuts!!
im gonna rip that f*****g powersounder out for a start!
put a fully charged battery in and then if it wont start, its getting thrown in the face of the manager at National Tyres Abingdon Road in Oxford! as he assured me the battery was fine!
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 24 March 2010, 18:45:21
Quote
OKAY

i will take the battery out of its housing and leave it charging for the weekend, instea dof doing it while attached to the car..
then go from there, if it drains which i know it will do, then i just dont know

powersounder probably

Lol, we have already told you to disconnect the power sounder.....


Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Wayne on 24 March 2010, 18:47:03
yes i know you have but as you know im THICK!  lol

why does the powersounder do this if the batteries inside it are flat?
who designed this car because i wanna rip his throat out!!  >:(
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 24 March 2010, 18:49:01
Quote
yes i know you have but as you know im THICK!  lol

why does the powersounder do this if the batteries inside it are flat?
who designed this car because i wanna rip his throat out!!  >:(

Cars dont have throats.  ;D ;D

Any battery with only a simple charger setup will draw a current until its charged.......if the battery is goosed then this can be for an indefinate period  :y

Simples.



Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Jimbob on 24 March 2010, 19:18:03
and if you are really lucky...the powersounder can sponteneously combust!

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1259433462

you have been warned...unplug it!
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Wayne on 24 March 2010, 19:31:24
aarrgghhhhhhhhhh

i forgot to tell you guys!
after not using my car for 2 weeks, when i did get it jump started from the booster pack, i saw SMOKE coming from near the Alternator, as you look at the engine bay from above, it was towards the bottom right of the engine, sort of smoke like someones got a cigarette on the go and then it stopped when cars been running for 2 minutes....  what the hell is that? lol
i know the powersounder is top left of the engine, so it cant be that!

bloody nightmare!
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Kaycee on 25 March 2010, 07:27:55
i would say if you dont sort alt/batt you wont be able to sell it as it will go up in flames
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 25 March 2010, 08:12:33
Quote
aarrgghhhhhhhhhh

i forgot to tell you guys!
after not using my car for 2 weeks, when i did get it jump started from the booster pack, i saw SMOKE coming from near the Alternator, as you look at the engine bay from above, it was towards the bottom right of the engine, sort of smoke like someones got a cigarette on the go and then it stopped when cars been running for 2 minutes....  what the hell is that? lol
i know the powersounder is top left of the engine, so it cant be that!

bloody nightmare!

Bottom right of the engine is the aircon compressor.....alternator is bottom left.
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Wayne on 28 March 2010, 19:09:11
Hi Chaps

had an ace time rocking the troops in Germany  ;D
we had to sleep in Squaddie accomodation, i will never moan about my bed again!
it was like sleeping on concrete on those army bunks!!!   >:(
covered 1120 miles from Thursday morning until Saturday afternoon
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=403168&id=623190360&l=d1156dae2a


anyways...........i left my battery on charge for 48 hours in the shed using my mechanic friends expensive charger, not one of your halford jobbies, one from a recovery company, anyway....... think the battery is knackered and it was indeed a faulty one, the needle on the charger hasnt moved off of ZERO since its been on, can a battery really be a DUD after you buy it?
it charged ok last time i left it on charge, its going back on Monday and im getting a replacement, hope i can get to work tomorrow night now!
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: KW on 28 March 2010, 20:02:46
Quote
can a battery really be a DUD after you buy it?
ANY electro-mechanical device can be a "dud", and it can be a dud at ANY point in it's lifetime (including from brand new).

Mark has already told you what the problem is (and you confirmed it when you said the ammeter on the battery charger didn't move when you put it on charge), just open your wallet and buy a new battery dude.
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Wayne on 28 March 2010, 20:07:53
YEAH, im gonna get a battery, but my faullty Varta Battery is under warranty so the supplier can change it for me, i aint shelling out anymore cash on this car when i shouldnt have to
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Shackeng on 28 March 2010, 22:55:19
Quote
aarrgghhhhhhhhhh

i forgot to tell you guys!
after not using my car for 2 weeks, when i did get it jump started from the booster pack, i saw SMOKE coming from near the Alternator, as you look at the engine bay from above, it was towards the bottom right of the engine, sort of smoke like someones got a cigarette on the go and then it stopped when cars been running for 2 minutes....  what the hell is that? lol
i know the powersounder is top left of the engine, so it cant be that!

bloody nightmare!

I would be very concerned about this, and would get the alternator checked ASAP. :y
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 29 March 2010, 08:29:49
Quote
Quote
aarrgghhhhhhhhhh

i forgot to tell you guys!
after not using my car for 2 weeks, when i did get it jump started from the booster pack, i saw SMOKE coming from near the Alternator, as you look at the engine bay from above, it was towards the bottom right of the engine, sort of smoke like someones got a cigarette on the go and then it stopped when cars been running for 2 minutes....  what the hell is that? lol
i know the powersounder is top left of the engine, so it cant be that!

bloody nightmare!

I would be very concerned about this, and would get the alternator checked ASAP. :y


I would be even more worried as that sudgests that the alternator has been moved and placed where the aircon pump should be.
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Shackeng on 29 March 2010, 09:57:28
Quote
Quote
Quote
aarrgghhhhhhhhhh

i forgot to tell you guys!
after not using my car for 2 weeks, when i did get it jump started from the booster pack, i saw SMOKE coming from near the Alternator, as you look at the engine bay from above, it was towards the bottom right of the engine, sort of smoke like someones got a cigarette on the go and then it stopped when cars been running for 2 minutes....  what the hell is that? lol
i know the powersounder is top left of the engine, so it cant be that!

bloody nightmare!

I would be very concerned about this, and would get the alternator checked ASAP. :y


I would be even more worried as that sudgests that the alternator has been moved and placed where the aircon pump should be.

Mark, I think the OP was making the point that he was looking from the front and that it was on his right. 
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Wayne on 30 March 2010, 01:41:27
Hi Guys

took the old battery back to National Tyres, told the guy it wasnt charging, he then tried to make me look silly by saying "you charged it without letting it breathe?"
something about you should lift the lid up when your charging it, what a rather idiot! and he`s the manager, my battery is a sealed unit!!!!
anyway, he swapped my Varta Battery for a UK Batteries Prestige Plus, fitted it on my car and she runs like a dream!......for now! lol
gonna keep my eye on it and test Alternator Voltage ASAP
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Andy B on 30 March 2010, 01:49:13
Quote
....
 he then tried to make me look silly by saying "you charged it without letting it breathe?"
something about you should lift the lid up when your charging it, what a rather idiot! and he`s the manager, my battery is a sealed unit!!!! .....

I hope you oppsed him off!  :-?
At least you now have a new battery & a fully working car!  ;)  ;)  ;)
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Wayne on 30 March 2010, 01:55:47
YEAH, i did tell him hes an idiot while i picked the battery up and walked out with the new one, i shall not be buying ANYTHING from National Tyres again!
avoid the place everyone! go to VX or elsewhere  :y
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Kevin Wood on 30 March 2010, 10:39:52
You do need to check the charging voltage, just to make sure. :y

Kevin
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Psychoca on 30 March 2010, 11:08:36
Quote
YEAH, i did tell him hes an idiot while i picked the battery up and walked out with the new one, i shall not be buying ANYTHING from National Tyres again!
avoid the place everyone! go to VX or elsewhere  :y


I gave National Tyres the heave ho when they told me the knocking coming from the front of my old Sierra was a knackered shock absorber.   I kept telling them, I didn't think it was a shock, as it was too much of a metal/metal knocking and that they should be jacking the car up...  Which eventually after 5 minutes of them constantly telling me it was a shock, they did...  Imagine their faces when they realised I knew what the problem was as they attempted to catch the wheel they thought was about to fall off (The wheel bearings had collapsed and at that time I had neither the time, tools or knowledge to sort it).

They didn't like the fact I wouldn't give them the work to sort it either....  Sadly it is a trick that I picked up on early, that if I could establish the fault before taking to a garage, then the less likely I am to be ripped off and find some of the sharks out there...
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Wayne on 30 March 2010, 18:34:06
Kevin - what should the voltage read when testing alternator and battery?

im gonna test it with just engine running and then do a test with both heated seats on, heater on full blast, lights, rear demister

what should the ideal readings be?

cheers buddy
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Entwood on 30 March 2010, 18:57:09
Kevein wrote an excellent guide ..

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225724099

have a read :)
Title: Re: Battery Problem..........again!
Post by: Kevin Wood on 30 March 2010, 20:08:35
Quote
Kevin - what should the voltage read when testing alternator and battery?

im gonna test it with just engine running and then do a test with both heated seats on, heater on full blast, lights, rear demister

what should the ideal readings be?

cheers buddy

About 13.8-14.5 volts ideally. It might need a few revs, especially with the load on. (try at a natural idle and at say 2500 RPM).

Check neither of the battery terminals is getting hot while you're at it. :y

Kevin