Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: ScottieMV6 on 19 March 2010, 17:44:46
-
Finally finished the headgasket work on my car today and started her up only to find it has made absolutely no difference whatsoever. >:( >:(
For those that don't remember the original problems were clouds of white smoke and misfire. Compression test showed 15 bar on all cylinders with the exception of no. 6 which showed 19 bar. Took the heads off to find this
(http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii371/scottie7275/Scotties%20Car/PICT0005.jpg)
which pretty much confirmed head gasket was the problem.
I have replaced both head gaskets, stem oil seals etc and put everything back together after making sure everything was spotlessly clean and I still have clouds of white smoke and a misfire. I have only left it running 5 mins but the smoke started after about 2 or 3 mins and then just got worse.
Any suggestions? :-/ :-/
-
I would be suspecting the cylinder head or heads themselves,did you have them skimmed or tested.
-
Couldn't this just be a load of condensed coolant within the exhaust system from when it was last running with the fault, evaporating off?
-
Hi
White smoke (if it really was white smoke) is usually caused by brake fluid sucked into the inlet manifold from the servo. It gets in the servo from a leak in the master cyl. Is your brake fluid going down.
Or as suggested above its condensation in the exhaust. I started up one of my cars that had lain idle for a while and filled up the courtyard we live in with white smoke/steam, you could hardly see across the courtyard. I was ordered to shut it off by SWMBO. It was only condensation.
Alan
Finally finished the headgasket work on my car today and started her up only to find it has made absolutely no difference whatsoever. >:( >:(
For those that don't remember the original problems were clouds of white smoke and misfire. Compression test showed 15 bar on all cylinders with the exception of no. 6 which showed 19 bar. Took the heads off to find this
(http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii371/scottie7275/Scotties%20Car/PICT0005.jpg)
which pretty much confirmed head gasket was the problem.
I have replaced both head gaskets, stem oil seals etc and put everything back together after making sure everything was spotlessly clean and I still have clouds of white smoke and a misfire. I have only left it running 5 mins but the smoke started after about 2 or 3 mins and then just got worse.
Any suggestions? :-/ :-/
-
Well, judging by the state of the head gaskets you haven't wasted your time.
The need for skimming and porosity of heads is very rare on this engine. Not impossible, of course, but for the symptoms to be totally unchanged I think a bit of detective work is required.
Removing and blocking the feed to the master cylinder and giving it a run will eliminate brake fluid.
Then on to the misfire. If the compressions are good no cylinder should be misfiring so plugs, leads, coil pack and, perhaps, fuel injectors come under scrutiny. Did all the leads go back on in the right places? Any excessively wet plugs after a few minutes running?
Any trouble codes from the ECU? All connections back where they should be following the rebuild?
Don't give up after all this work. It must be something simple now.
Kevin
-
Is this the car that had the corroded heads?
-
Are you sure you put everything back right?
-
Plus leads fitted to the dis correctly?
-
I would be suspecting the cylinder head or heads themselves,did you have them skimmed or tested.
That was my first thought and if so I need to think about whether I can justify the expense or whether I should just break it and get another one?
Couldn't this just be a load of condensed coolant within the exhaust system from when it was last running with the fault, evaporating off?
I would say that there was far too much smoke for it to be this :'(
Removing and blocking the feed to the master cylinder and giving it a run will eliminate brake fluid
Assume I would have to block off both the end of the servo pipe and the resulting hole in the plenum so that the vacuum pipes still work?
Then on to the misfire. If the compressions are good no cylinder should be misfiring so plugs, leads, coil pack and, perhaps, fuel injectors come under scrutiny. Did all the leads go back on in the right places? Any excessively wet plugs after a few minutes running?
Any trouble codes from the ECU? All connections back where they should be following the rebuild?
I will need to double check all of this starting with compressions. I am fairly sure all the leads went back in the right place though ::)
Is this the car that had the corroded heads?
Yes it is. What is your thinking? :y
-
Auto-box breather connected to plenum by mistake?
After a rebuild it is quite normal for oil and grease used during assembly to burn off or get burnt in the engine. It only takes a few drops of oil to create a smoke screen.
There is a chance that the advice that experienced OOFers gave you about the corrosion, from photographs, would have been different if they had been able to see the heads in the metal but the photographs I saw didn't have any corrosion damage in the critical areas.
HTH
-
Assume I would have to block off both the end of the servo pipe and the resulting hole in the plenum so that the vacuum pipes still work?
For a quick check it doesn't really matter if the heater and multi-ram flaps don't work so I would just undo the nut at the plenum and plug the hole with anything that fits.
-
Auto-box breather connected to plenum by mistake?
After a rebuild it is quite normal for oil and grease used during assembly to burn off or get burnt in the engine. It only takes a few drops of oil to create a smoke screen.
There is a chance that the advice that experienced OOFers gave you about the corrosion, from photographs, would have been different if they had been able to see the heads in the metal but the photographs I saw didn't have any corrosion damage in the critical areas.
HTH
Manual box so not that! Grease etc being burnt off as you say is normal but it is definitely not that.
I think I might go and take a video of the smoke to give a better idea :y
-
Hopefully these videos might help confirm the symptoms.
This first one was taken immediately after start up
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUmcbqp6J6Y[/media]
This second one was taken about 2 minutes after the first one
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6517id5nj7g[/media]
What I find interesting is the smoke only comes out of 1 side of the exhaust :-/
In between the 2 videos I did a paperclip test and the only code was 46 which the car had before all this work so is not a major concern right now. :y
-
cant tell from video but looks like condensation is the smoke vanishing soon after if so its just the moisture in the exhaust from when the gasket went . If you look at the 2nd video one of the tailpipes is clear and seems to be pumping out normal gases i`d say 90% that its just water vapour fingers crossed
-
Hope i am wrong Scottie but that first video looks like oil smoke the second looks like condensation get it up to temperature and see if it still same could just be old oil etc lying around in the manifold etc
good luck mate
-
Smoke on initial start up is to be expected....I have managed to almost smog he road out before!
Looks like quite a bit of condensation but, its not been run for ages so there will be lots of damp in the exhaust
-
So let it run until up to temp and then see whats what? :y
-
So let it run until up to temp and then see whats what? :y
Does it sound ok?
-
Seems to sound ok. Lifters were a bit noisy but they seem to have settled down a bit.
About 2 minutes after starting up the idle seems to increase to about 1500 rpm from 1000 rpm and if you "blip" the throttle it wants to cut out.
-
Seems to sound ok. Lifters were a bit noisy but they seem to have settled down a bit.
About 2 minutes after starting up the idle seems to increase to about 1500 rpm from 1000 rpm and if you "blip" the throttle it wants to cut out.
Sounds like you have an air leak...but let it get hot.
-
Ok have just run it for 10 minutes or so. Gets to temp fairly quickly (quicker than it used to but I always thought it took a long time anyway). Sits happily at an indicated 95 degrees but still billowing smoke out of the exhaust.
Guess the next step is to remove the servo hose and find something suitable to block up the hole and run it again (to eliminate brake fluid). Also I need to find the source of the air leak too (this has annoyed me slightly as I have used all new genuine seals in the inlet).
Just has me worried that it smoked like this before the work and is now doing it again
-
Is that the side that had the failed head gasket?
The vacuum hose connects to that side of the inlet plenum so brake fluid is still a possibility.
-
Is that the side that had the failed head gasket?
The vacuum hose connects to that side of the inlet plenum so brake fluid is still a possibility.
Yes it is Andy.
I am going to pull the vacuum hose tomorrow and see what happens. :y
-
Take it off and cover the hole with insultaing tape.....
I dont buy the brake fluid theory (sorry andy)as this would require both a master cylinder seal to fail (you would notice on the brakes plus fluid loss) and the vac seal on the servo to fail...hence double failure required.
-
The air leak is easy to find... Grab a can of carb cleaner and do lots of little squirts all over the seals/gaskets on the top end. A sudden brief increase in engine revs will tell you where the leak is ;) :y
-
Take it off and cover the hole with insultaing tape.....
I dont buy the brake fluid theory (sorry andy)as this would require both a master cylinder seal to fail (you would notice on the brakes plus fluid loss) and the vac seal on the servo to fail...hence double failure required.
I agree: BUT it is to an easy check to eliminate that as a cause.
Assuming that the brakes are OK (and the header tank isn't pressurising) the advice has to be to take it for a drive to get everything properly hot and dry the exhaust out.
-
Right today I have removed the servo pipe from the plenum - no difference, so that eliminates brake fluid.
Did a compression test with the following results
1 - 13 Bar
2 - 13.5 Bar
3,4,5 & 6 - 14 bar
Not sure if that is significant or not. When putting it all back together I realised that I had not connected the knock sensor (I think thats right - its the one that sits on top of the front cable tray) so connected that back up. Took it for a drive round the block and noticed what looks like blue smoke when under load?
Other than that it is still exactly the same. No wet spark plugs or anything else untoward except that the header tank seems to be pressurising.
Please someone help as I am way past my level of knowledge here now!! :-/ :-/
-
Compressions look fine....knock sensor off is not good.....
Header tank should pressurise as its a pressurised system
-
Dont know if this will be of any help to you, but my brother-in-law had a the same problem with his Landrover Freelander, massivly over fuleing, did similar tests to what you have done- pressure test, block test, all good. After a lot of head scratching and thinking about getting rid of it he got some one to run live data from the ecu which flaged up the cam sensor(no EML was on) replaced it and it is now running like new. HTH.
-
Compressions look fine....knock sensor off is not good.....
Header tank should pressurise as its a pressurised system
I meant rather quickly like it did before the work was done (thought this was a symptom)?
So what to do next? Do I assume its the heads or would the compression test point to something other than that? If so what?
What will be the consequences of the knock sensor being left off?
-
Knock sensor off would mean low power....but would have flagged a code....so what codes do you have
-
Yesterday when I was running it I read the codes and only had 46 which is the Secondary Air Pump which I know about as this was faulty before I did the work.
Just read them now and am amazed to find all of these
46 Secondary Air Pump Voltage Low
19 Incorrect RPM Signal
16 Knock Signal Circuit 1
57 Idle Air Control Voltage Low
21 Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) Voltage High
129 Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Valve Feedback Voltage Low
81 Injector Valve 1 Voltage Low
82 Injector Valve 2 Voltage Low
83 Injector Valve 3 Voltage Low
84 Injector Valve 4 Voltage Low
85 Injector Valve 5 Voltage Low
86 Injector Valve 6 Voltage Low
WTF have I done? Really p*ssed off now :-/ :-/
-
Are you using a code reader or paper clip.
-
Paper clip
-
Ok.....so, check the connectors to the listed items (I am concerned about the 19).
Is the EGr valve all ok....is it blanked off?
-
Ok.....so, check the connectors to the listed items (I am concerned about the 19).
Is the EGr valve all ok....is it blanked off?
I'll check them all tomorrow then Mark.
As far as I know the EGR is fine. It is not blanked off and is all connected up fine.
-
Yes, well place a bit of coke can between it and the gasket.....to blank it off and take it out the equation.
We need to work through the issues one by one......
-
So tomorrow I will blank off the EGR and check all connections and then report back. Thanks Mark :y
-
So tomorrow I will blank off the EGR and check all connections and then report back. Thanks Mark :y
Compressions all look good.....so should run ok.
Code 19 is a worry.....has it had a crank sensor recently?
Also, was the cambelt fitted with the locking kit/
-
So tomorrow I will blank off the EGR and check all connections and then report back. Thanks Mark :y
Compressions all look good.....so should run ok.
Code 19 is a worry.....has it had a crank sensor recently?
Also, was the cambelt fitted with the locking kit/
It seems to run ok apart from it running a little fast.
It has not had a crank sensor in the 3 years that I have had it. Is the crank sensor the one that runs up the back alongside the oil cooler pipes?
Locking kit was used to fit the cam belt kit. :y
-
Is the idle valve connected?
The crank sensor is the one that runs up the back
-
Started the car today after checking all connections and the smoking has all but stopped???? The car runs quite smoothly and pulls well (little bit of smoke when pulling away).
Checked the fault codes again and still have
46 Secondary Air Pump Voltage Low
19 Incorrect RPM Signal
16 Knock Signal Circuit 1
57 Idle Air Control Voltage Low
21 Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) Voltage High
129 Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Valve Feedback Voltage Low
85 Injector Valve 5 Voltage Low
86 Injector Valve 6 Voltage Low
Seem to have cleared 81,82,83 and 84 but have now acquired 87 - A/C Cutoff Relay Voltage Low.
Not sure how I have cleared these codes as I have nothing to reset them with?
Whilst running the engine I left the header tank cap off and when up to temp the water was spilling out over the top to the point that there was nothing left in the header tank. Is this right?
Finally there seems to be an awful lot of mayo in the filler neck (more than i would normally see from short journeys). Dipstick and header tank are clear though!!
Any further thoughts?
-
Started the car today after checking all connections and the smoking has all but stopped???? The car runs quite smoothly and pulls well (little bit of smoke when pulling away).
Checked the fault codes again and still have
46 Secondary Air Pump Voltage Low
19 Incorrect RPM Signal
16 Knock Signal Circuit 1
57 Idle Air Control Voltage Low
21 Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) Voltage High
129 Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Valve Feedback Voltage Low
85 Injector Valve 5 Voltage Low
86 Injector Valve 6 Voltage Low
Seem to have cleared 81,82,83 and 84 but have now acquired 87 - A/C Cutoff Relay Voltage Low.
Not sure how I have cleared these codes as I have nothing to reset them with?
Whilst running the engine I left the header tank cap off and when up to temp the water was spilling out over the top to the point that there was nothing left in the header tank. Is this right?
Finally there seems to be an awful lot of mayo in the filler neck (more than i would normally see from short journeys). Dipstick and header tank are clear though!!
Any further thoughts?
It's a pressurised system so leave the cap on, or you'll lose all of the coolant in there. Mayo well have you thought about giving it a good run, better still change the oil then do it. Might give a better clue as to the problems then if any.
Mick
-
The initial smoke was defo condensation, I had a similar thing after a HG change a good drive sorted it out.
Did you turn on the ignition at all during the dismantle? Even to listen to radio or move the wipers? It seems to be working fine so might be worth getting to a tech2 to clear the codes and see what pops up then.
-
The initial smoke was defo condensation, I had a similar thing after a HG change a good drive sorted it out.
Did you turn on the ignition at all during the dismantle? Even to listen to radio or move the wipers? It seems to be working fine so might be worth getting to a tech2 to clear the codes and see what pops up then.
I'm starting to think you might be right on that one, it just seemed to go on too long.
I would give it a good run but it is currently on SORN and MOT has run out. Didn't really want to waste money on MOT if its not right.
I don't remember turning on the ignition at all during strip down. I did however leave the knock sensor off which would explain code 16, and when doing a compression test I simply unplugged the injector rail, could this explain codes 81 - 86? Doesn't explain why 4 cylinders now ok though?
-
Well gave it a run today to MOT station (it failed on rear brake pads) and whilst the smoking has died down very significantly it is still there (bad enough for the tester to issue an advisory about white smoke when accelerating).
Am going to check the oil and coolant tomorrow to make sure there is no cross contamination.
Also where does the crank sensor go at the back of the engine? Does it go into the loom somewhere? Wondering if I could have disturbed it in some way and this is causing 19 code?