Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: TheBoy on 03 April 2010, 09:56:23
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Well, I guess the golden nugget isn't going to diagnose itself, so I should get out there, in between the showers....
More to follow, I'm sure.
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Jaime "The Destroyer" ;D
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fingers crossed
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:-/ :-/
I see you never going to be easy on the pedal ;D
imo try this so called "snake oil additives" like slick 50, motor up, duralube,prolong, restore etc .. I have been personally using some of them for more than 250K miles (total) on all of my cars and never ever witnessed a problem.. And must say some of them were modded (cylinder head) and when we opened the engine it was shining like new.. :-?
Unfortunately nowadays they are really expensive here so I'm using a cheap one with teflon additive.
forget about their loosing courts etc.. big oil companies are always strong and they will always win against competitors >:(
hope you will get them sorted soon :y
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Right, whoever did the cambelt last.....
....absolutely perfect job :y :y. Absolutely bang on the mark.
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Could probably do with Kevin Wood's and chrisgixer's ears over the attached videos, does this sound familiar?
[media]http://theboy.omegaowners.com/oofpics/goldennugget/opps/MVI_4729_conv.flv[/media]
[media]http://theboy.omegaowners.com/oofpics/goldennugget/opps/MVI_4730_conv.flv[/media]
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Right, whoever did the cambelt last.....
....absolutely perfect job :y :y. Absolutely bang on the mark.
I wouldn't expect anything else, it was Loo Knee :y
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Right, whoever did the cambelt last.....
....absolutely perfect job :y :y. Absolutely bang on the mark.
I wouldn't expect anything else, it was Loo Knee :y
Can't fault his cambelt fitting :y
(http://theboy.omegaowners.com/oofpics/goldennugget/opps/IMG_4727.JPG)
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frequency and location (louder on drivers side) sound almost exactly the same, but more aggressive.
again not present while cranking but present to very last rotation.
so yes, same, but worse. afaict.
nearer the noisy lifter type noise i had on mine but still not quite the same.
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corection, seems to fade in while cranking.
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frequency and location (louder on drivers side) sound almost exactly the same, but more aggressive.
again not present while cranking but present to very last rotation.
so yes, same, but worse. afaict.
nearer the noisy lifter type noise i had on mine but still not quite the same.
In reality, I reckon its noiser passenger side, though that doesn't really come through on the vid.
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the original from silver bullet
http://images.omegaowners.com/images/Jimbob/theboy-engine.mp3
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TD's sound smoother ;D
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similiar to silver mv6 but more aggresive me thinks..
so nothing to worry about.. Prof DTM handy :y
some extra lifter-follower cost waiting only :-/
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That sounds like a heavier noise to me, but difficult to tell, TBH. :(
Worth trying cutting each cylinder on Tech 2?
Is it still running on 6? Certainly sounds like it is. :-/
If you pull the crank sensor and turn it over on the starter is there any knocking?
Kevin
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... and, I suppose, as we're starting at the beginning, try it with the aux. belt removed in case it's an ancillary? I'd be surprised, but eliminate it anyway.
Worth checking for lost motion at TDC while You've got access to the crank pulley too?
Kevin
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That sounds like a heavier noise to me, but difficult to tell, TBH. :(
Worth trying cutting each cylinder on Tech 2?
Is it still running on 6? Certainly sounds like it is. :-/
If you pull the crank sensor and turn it over on the starter is there any knocking?
Kevin
I thought it sounded more serious that MV6, which is why I immediately went for cambelt - particularly as when it happened, I lost servo assistance for brakes, and then I couldn't restart. Attempts to restart, I reckoned it was spinning over a bit to easily.
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... and, I suppose, as we're starting at the beginning, try it with the aux. belt removed in case it's an ancillary? I'd be surprised, but eliminate it anyway.
Worth checking for lost motion at TDC while You've got access to the crank pulley too?
Kevin
Put it all back together to take the video. Unsure of this car's future to be honest - whatever, I'll probably pop the camcovers off to get the (3l) cams out, as they have value ::), might 'play' and check followers whilst there, rip heads off etc, but doubt it will go back together ;)
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A bit beyond my ken but you said you reckoned it span too easily ... presumably due to a loss of compression? I.e. valve(s) not moving?
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I had a cam jump 180 degrees, that foxed me until I took the pulleys off
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Did it have plenty of oil in when it failed? Just thinking, you implied a bit of playing happened shortly before? High revs / high G scenario might have caused it to take a gulp of air if oil level was low, thus emptying lifters. :-/
Hard to see how it could lose vacuum / compression and then run happily albeit noisily with cam timing fine throughout. :-/
Don't suppose one of the cam sprockets has turned on the cam - although they are should be keyed to each other?
Kevin
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Did it have plenty of oil in when it failed? Just thinking, you implied a bit of playing happened shortly before? High revs / high G scenario might have caused it to take a gulp of air if oil level was low, thus emptying lifters. :-/
Hard to see how it could lose vacuum / compression and then run happily albeit noisily with cam timing fine throughout. :-/
Don't suppose one of the cam sprockets has turned on the cam - although they are should be keyed to each other?
Kevin
Oil still reading pretty much max, dark brown in colour, so due a change.
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Did it have plenty of oil in when it failed? Just thinking, you implied a bit of playing happened shortly before? High revs / high G scenario might have caused it to take a gulp of air if oil level was low, thus emptying lifters. :-/
Hard to see how it could lose vacuum / compression and then run happily albeit noisily with cam timing fine throughout. :-/
Don't suppose one of the cam sprockets has turned on the cam - although they are should be keyed to each other?
Kevin
I had a key work out :( :( :( :(
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If the lifters got "emptied" through "exuberant" driving .. wouldn't they just fill back up fairly quickly once restarted ???
:-/ :-/
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If the lifters got "emptied" through "exuberant" driving .. wouldn't they just fill back up fairly quickly once restarted ???
:-/ :-/
They can take a few minutes IME.
Noise sounds more serious although I'm aware that I've said that before recently and (hopefully) been proved to be overly pessimistic.
Kevin
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Sounds to be more serious that 'tappets' to me too. But not heavy enough though for big ends either. :-/
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Sounds like the little end nocking to me. I had a V6 ford years ago with damaged small end . That noise sound the same to me.
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Tech2 has pinpointed the issue to cylinder 6 which appaers not to be firing.
Cam timing spot on.
HT lead for No6 is just under 4k ohms, as are all the others, except No3 which seems odd.
Skinned my hands removing the DIS, that measures OK as well.
Plugs replaced as a matter of course. Plug 6 was darker, but complete.
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Hmm... So wiring to dispack? :-/ Certainly smells like there's fuel getting there ::)
Or inlet lifters... Although seems far too coincidental
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When you collect the silver nugget, you can borrow my spark tester...and compression tester
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Tunnie turned up with a couple of senny leads, replaced no3 which looks tired, no change.
Then he nicked some bulbs to get his through mot :o
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if that car stays longer there will be
no second car nothing to worry about left ;D
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Tunnie turned up with a couple of senny leads, replaced no3 which looks tired, no change.
Then he nicked some bulbs to get his mother tunnies estate through mot :o
You won't be needing them, its not going any ware ::)
Well not until i reach pot 6 on that DIS, reckon if i take off 3 again and put 6 on first, we won't have to take plenum off.
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Tunnie turned up with a couple of senny leads, replaced no3 which looks tired, no change.
Then he nicked some bulbs to get his mother tunnies estate through mot :o
You won't be needing them, its not going any ware ::)
Well not until i reach pot 6 on that DIS, reckon if i take off 3 again and put 6 on first, we won't have to take plenum off.
In my heart of hearts, I dont expect it to be ht related any more. But gotta go through the motions.
My back is giving me some jip this evening after bending over it to get dis in and out :'(
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Tunnie turned up with a couple of senny leads, replaced no3 which looks tired, no change.
Then he nicked some bulbs to get his mother tunnies estate through mot :o
You won't be needing them, its not going any ware ::)
Well not until i reach pot 6 on that DIS, reckon if i take off 3 again and put 6 on first, we won't have to take plenum off.
In my heart of hearts, I dont expect it to be ht related any more. But gotta go through the motions.
My back is giving me some jip this evening after bending over it to get dis in and out :'(
Get yourself a 2.2, doddle to reach that coil pack :)
Prob be around 10 ish in the morning? - Still want to go to the scrappy even if pot 6 lead still has it running like bag spanners?
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In my heart of hearts, I dont expect it to be ht related any more. But gotta go through the motions.
My back is giving me some jip this evening after bending over it to get dis in and out :'(
Have you got a timing light you can put on no.6? Just to verify there's a spark? (although if no.3 is firing you may well get a flash of the strobe anyway) :-/
If you turn it over with the crank sensor disconnected does it crank evenly? Just wondering.. If it's got a pot without compression you'll hear it turn through 5 compression strokes and then miss a beat.
Kevin
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In my heart of hearts, I dont expect it to be ht related any more. But gotta go through the motions.
My back is giving me some jip this evening after bending over it to get dis in and out :'(
Have you got a timing light you can put on no.6? Just to verify there's a spark? (although if no.3 is firing you may well get a flash of the strobe anyway) :-/
If you turn it over with the crank sensor disconnected does it crank evenly? Just wondering.. If it's got a pot without compression you'll hear it turn through 5 compression strokes and then miss a beat.
Kevin
Admittedly everything was connected but sounded like it cranked fine on Sunday... Just rattled and clacked like an oil burner when running, on 5 we thought and now confirmed :y
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When you collect the silver nugget, you can borrow my spark tester...and compression tester
:y
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Only other thing I can think of that's easily checked is the injector on that cylinder? Is it connected, firing when it should or (more likely) leaking / gushing fuel when it should be closed?
Getting a strange feeling of deja vu now. ::)
I have a lovely home made injector circuit checker (junior timer socket with an LED on the end) if you like? Fabricated about a month ago as it happens. ::)
Kevin
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Snapped inlet cam on no6 ? that would make that sort of noise and it would also cause the loss of vacum to the brake servo as the inlet valves would have got jiggy with the piston.
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Only other thing I can think of that's easily checked is the injector on that cylinder? Is it connected, firing when it should or (more likely) leaking / gushing fuel when it should be closed?
Getting a strange feeling of deja vu now. ::)
I have a lovely home made injector circuit checker (junior timer socket with an LED on the end) if you like? Fabricated about a month ago as it happens. ::)
Kevin
I had thought that - I had checked that the injectors are wired to the connector that comes out of relevent hole in the injector wiring tray, but not checked further.
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I had thought that - I had checked that the injectors are wired to the connector that comes out of relevent hole in the injector wiring tray, but not checked further.
If you take the plenum off, remove the fuel pump relay and bridge the contacts with a short length of wire with a spade connector on each end you can get the fuel pump to run, and by looking down the intakes you should be able to spot a leaky injector.
Then turn on the ignition and check that no injectors have opened (due to a failed driver in the ECU perhaps?).
Then stop the fuel pump, leaving the relay out, relieve fuel rail pressure and crank it over checking that you get a pulse at each injector socket. (this is where my LED comes in. It's a short pulse so it needs to be an LED with appropriate series resistor rather than a bulb.) Red wire with blue stripe on an injector connector is positive.
Kevin
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I had thought that - I had checked that the injectors are wired to the connector that comes out of relevent hole in the injector wiring tray, but not checked further.
If you take the plenum off, remove the fuel pump relay and bridge the contacts with a short length of wire with a spade connector on each end you can get the fuel pump to run, and by looking down the intakes you should be able to spot a leaky injector.
Then turn on the ignition and check that no injectors have opened (due to a failed driver in the ECU perhaps?).
Then stop the fuel pump, leaving the relay out, relieve fuel rail pressure and crank it over checking that you get a pulse at each injector socket. (this is where my LED comes in. It's a short pulse so it needs to be an LED with appropriate series resistor rather than a bulb.) Red wire with blue stripe on an injector connector is positive.
Kevin
:y :y
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I had thought that - I had checked that the injectors are wired to the connector that comes out of relevent hole in the injector wiring tray, but not checked further.
If you take the plenum off, remove the fuel pump relay and bridge the contacts with a short length of wire with a spade connector on each end you can get the fuel pump to run, and by looking down the intakes you should be able to spot a leaky injector.
Then turn on the ignition and check that no injectors have opened (due to a failed driver in the ECU perhaps?).
Then stop the fuel pump, leaving the relay out, relieve fuel rail pressure and crank it over checking that you get a pulse at each injector socket. (this is where my LED comes in. It's a short pulse so it needs to be an LED with appropriate series resistor rather than a bulb.) Red wire with blue stripe on an injector connector is positive.
Kevin
Or pop the lid off the relay and press the contacts together.
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Hmmm, I see there are a few threads currently about 2.5 v6 misfires ;D
Hope the others aren't as bad as mine :o
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Hmmm, I see there are a few threads currently about 2.5 v6 misfires ;D
Hope the others aren't as bad as mine :o
Dropping like flies. ::)
Kevin
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Right, good spark on No6.
Compression on No6 was 4 bar initially when tested, went up to 18bar (:o) when a bit of oil popped down inlet.
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Wonder if you have a "ring" problem .... (waits for unsuitable comments !!! )
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Wonder if you have a "ring" problem .... (waits for unsuitable comments !!! )
Fnar fnar.
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Right, good spark on No6.
Compression on No6 was 4 bar initially when tested, went up to 18bar (:o) when a bit of oil popped down inlet.
How much oil did you put in?
At least there is compression, and remember the silver bullet did exactly the same? EDIT: OK, not 18 BAR but it dropped considerably after a misfire.
I wonder if you were a little heavy-handed with the oil and it's taken up some of the combustion chamber volume. Either that or the pot is full of fuel. :-/
Any sign of a leaky injector with intake off?
Kevin
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Right, good spark on No6.
Compression on No6 was 4 bar initially when tested, went up to 18bar (:o) when a bit of oil popped down inlet.
How much oil did you put in?
At least there is compression, and remember the silver bullet did exactly the same? EDIT: OK, not 18 BAR but it dropped considerably after a misfire.
I wonder if you were a little heavy-handed with the oil and it's taken up some of the combustion chamber volume. Either that or the pot is full of fuel. :-/
Any sign of a leaky injector with intake off?
Kevin
I may have been heavy handed - was guessing at a teaspoon but bloody well sneezed. Probably nearer a tablespoon.
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Right, good spark on No6.
Compression on No6 was 4 bar initially when tested, went up to 18bar (:o) when a bit of oil popped down inlet.
How much oil did you put in?
At least there is compression, and remember the silver bullet did exactly the same? EDIT: OK, not 18 BAR but it dropped considerably after a misfire.
I wonder if you were a little heavy-handed with the oil and it's taken up some of the combustion chamber volume. Either that or the pot is full of fuel. :-/
Any sign of a leaky injector with intake off?
Kevin
I may have been heavy handed - was guessing at a teaspoon but bloody well sneezed. Probably nearer a tablespoon.
gaw steady on, almost enough to hydro lock, if it goes over tdc with a full combustion chamber of oil it'll lift the head off and streatch the head bolts
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Right, good spark on No6.
Compression on No6 was 4 bar initially when tested, went up to 18bar (:o) when a bit of oil popped down inlet.
How much oil did you put in?
At least there is compression, and remember the silver bullet did exactly the same? EDIT: OK, not 18 BAR but it dropped considerably after a misfire.
I wonder if you were a little heavy-handed with the oil and it's taken up some of the combustion chamber volume. Either that or the pot is full of fuel. :-/
Any sign of a leaky injector with intake off?
Kevin
I may have been heavy handed - was guessing at a teaspoon but bloody well sneezed. Probably nearer a tablespoon.
gaw steady on, almost enough to hydro lock, if it goes over tdc with a full combustion chamber of oil it'll lift the head off and streatch the head bolts
Thats why plug was out when I turned it over ;)
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4 bar (without oil) is not much, it's only 57psi. I would be looking for 10 - 12 bar(145 - 170psi) at least.
What are the the other cylinders reading ?
If you have 2 cylinders next to each other with low readings then i would say its head gasket related, blowing between these 2 cylinders.
If a complete bank is giving low readings then i would say its more likely a cambelt/pulley problem (possibly a sheared woodruf key) the pictures look as the timing is OK but if the woodruf key has sheared the pullies will still look as though they are in the right place but the cam could have turned inside the pulley.
If it's only the one cylinder with low reading it could be a snapped cam, it's not unheard of and no6 is right on the end aswell thus causing piston and valves to come together resulting in a couple of bent valves. One of the hydraulic tappets may have split and temporarely become wedged in the tappet bore again this could cause a bent valve (the Rover SDI's with the inline engine suffered from this, especially the 2.6) or it may have dropped a valve due to collet or spring failure.
The best thing to do is test the compressions on all the cylinders on that bank and see what you have and then take the cam cover off that bank and see what you have then.
I hope it's not too serious but it does sound more mechanical than fuel or spark problems.
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4 bar (without oil) is not much, it's only 57psi. I would be looking for 10 - 12 bar(145 - 170psi) at least.
What are the the other cylinders reading ?
If you have 2 cylinders next to each other with low readings then i would say its head gasket related, blowing between these 2 cylinders.
If a complete bank is giving low readings then i would say its more likely a cambelt/pulley problem (possibly a sheared woodruf key) the pictures look as the timing is OK but if the woodruf key has sheared the pullies will still look as though they are in the right place but the cam could have turned inside the pulley.
If it's only the one cylinder with low reading it could be a snapped cam, it's not unheard of and no6 is right on the end aswell thus causing piston and valves to come together resulting in a couple of bent valves. One of the hydraulic tappets may have split and temporarely become wedged in the tappet bore again this could cause a bent valve (the Rover SDI's with the inline engine suffered from this, especially the 2.6) or it may have dropped a valve due to collet or spring failure.
The best thing to do is test the compressions on all the cylinders on that bank and see what you have and then take the cam cover off that bank and see what you have then.
I hope it's not too serious but it does sound more mechanical than fuel or spark problems.
Other 4 I could get to read in the normal 12-14bar range. Couldn't get to 5 due to fuel lines (easily removed I know, but I am more interested in no6, as that is the cylinder not firing). 4bar shows there is no valve damage, but potentially suffering bore wash (remember, its been started a number of times now, and that pot is not firing), hence the oil trick.
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It would be interesting to re-test that cylinder after turning it over a few times on the starter. See if it drops back to a sensible reading as the oil disperses or drops to a very low level again.
My feeling is that it's just bore wash, as this is exactly the issue we had with one cylinder on the MV6, and there wasn't even an underlying cause of misfire there, in the end. We'd just started it for short intervals until one of the plugs fouled due to the rich mixture.
You wouldn't have any compression with a failed cam as the valves would either have been chewed up, or would be closed, in either scenario you won't get any compression.
My suspicion lies with the fuel injector on that cylinder.
If all goes well, I guess you'll have an entire spare intake manifold to chuck on after this weekend, to eliminate that.
If I remember I'll bring my injector circuit tester too. :y
Kevin
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It would be interesting to re-test that cylinder after turning it over a few times on the starter. See if it drops back to a sensible reading as the oil disperses or drops to a very low level again.
My feeling is that it's just bore wash, as this is exactly the issue we had with one cylinder on the MV6, and there wasn't even an underlying cause of misfire there, in the end. We'd just started it for short intervals until one of the plugs fouled due to the rich mixture.
You wouldn't have any compression with a failed cam as the valves would either have been chewed up, or would be closed, in either scenario you won't get any compression.
My suspicion lies with the fuel injector on that cylinder.
If all goes well, I guess you'll have an entire spare intake manifold to chuck on after this weekend, to eliminate that.
If I remember I'll bring my injector circuit tester too. :y
Kevin
New inlet was my next course of action ;)
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Oh, and inlet valves look to be moving as expected on all 6 cylinders.
Which is handy, as those 3l cams are worth £100-£150 when I break the car ;)
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Give the fuel injection loom on both halves a quick look over near the injector multiplug
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Give the fuel injection loom on both halves a quick look over near the injector multiplug
The wiring looks OK, but not had the connector apart yet (it was fighting back, so I went in for a cuppa, sat down in front of OOF, and that was another evening gone ;D)
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Swapped the intake (with injectors and fpr) over, and spent a bit more time with tech2 on it.
Let it warm up enough to go closed loop this time.
Cyl cut-off - kill any of 1/3/5, and the think nearly dies.
Kill 2 or 4, noticible difference in rpm, but not massive (nowhere near like any of 1/3/5). Kill 6, only a marginal difference, possible none (hard to tell for certain, as defo misfiring, and idle not smooth).
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Oh, and still clattering like a diesel ;D
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Checked with a test plug?
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Checked with a test plug?
Sparks OK on No6 (which was cylinder initially thought to be bad), not tried 4 or 2
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Would the EGR purely feed 2/4/6?
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Would the EGR purely feed 2/4/6?
No. I think there's a channel that runs from the EGR valve to the centre of the underside of the plenum, then forward to open out into a port behind each of the throttles.
Kevin
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Would the EGR purely feed 2/4/6?
No. I think there's a channel that runs from the EGR valve to the centre of the underside of the plenum, then forward to open out into a port behind each of the throttles.
Kevin
I thought I had a theory then :'(
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Would the EGR purely feed 2/4/6?
No. I think there's a channel that runs from the EGR valve to the centre of the underside of the plenum, then forward to open out into a port behind each of the throttles.
Kevin
I thought I had a theory then :'(
Can't hurt to eliminate it anyway.
Kevin
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Would the EGR purely feed 2/4/6?
No. I think there's a channel that runs from the EGR valve to the centre of the underside of the plenum, then forward to open out into a port behind each of the throttles.
Kevin
I thought I had a theory then :'(
Can't hurt to eliminate it anyway.
Kevin
My elimintation was going to be to remove valve, and start engine with my hand blocking the opening ::). Maybe should rig something better ::)
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What was the compression on 6?
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What was the compression on 6?
Drop of oil brings it back to 'green' (can't remember reading). After a bit of running, it drops down to about halfway between 0 and start of green.
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If compression is brought back with a drop of oil, could this indicate a ring problem?
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If compression is brought back with a drop of oil, could this indicate a ring problem?
It could... But it could also just be bore wash as it's not firing
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Is this the one now up for sale, as spares?
Shame if it is :'(
Mick ;)