Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: VXL V6 on 26 March 2009, 20:39:32
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2.2 Petrol giving P0170 - Fuel / Oxygen Lean
Assuming Lambda but do the readings point to which one? The engine was up to operating temperature but note that the ECU isn't going closed loop.
Any thoughts?
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa163/vxl_v6/w1.jpg)
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Thanks again Andy for your time :y
I did notice along with them both showing open circuit the heaters were also active for both 02 sensors (I'm assuming that's connected) but it was up to temp with the fans kicking in several times.
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I had this not long ago , P0170 fuel trim lean exhaust ... never went into closed loop
Turned out to be the Maf even though it wasnt flagging a code for it :y
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I had this not long ago , P0170 fuel trim lean exhaust ... never went into closed loop
Turned out to be the Maf even though it wasnt flagging a code for it :y
Did you just unplug it to test? How did you cure?
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Whats the price of a lambda compared with MAF, change the cheapest one first and see if you get lucky
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I had this not long ago , P0170 fuel trim lean exhaust ... never went into closed loop
Turned out to be the Maf even though it wasnt flagging a code for it :y
Did you just unplug it to test? How did you cure?
Yeah i unplugged it and it made no difference to the running of the car .
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Whats the price of a lambda compared with MAF, change the cheapest one first and see if you get lucky
i got a new genuine maf on ebay nice and cheap... i belive they are around £90 on Tc when i called my local dealer .
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I had this not long ago , P0170 fuel trim lean exhaust ... never went into closed loop
Turned out to be the Maf even though it wasnt flagging a code for it :y
Did you just unplug it to test? How did you cure?
Yeah i unplugged it and it made no difference to the running of the car .
I'll have a play when I get home tomorrow lunchtime :y Ta matey :y
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When your MAF was faulty did the car struggle to idle for a second or two from a cold start or act as if it was missing at higher revs
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When your MAF was faulty did the car struggle to idle for a second or two from a cold start or act as if it was missing at higher revs
It did splutter for a second or two ... there was no missing at high revs but it did feel hesitant between 3000 - 4500 revs .
Big improvement when i put the new maf on , got its power back again :y
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Sounds about the same then.
Could do with a known good MAF to prove really.
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Yes that would certainly help .... i dont think my O2 readings looked like yours though , but im also suffering the cat efficiency code aswell .
But ive never seen the P0170 code since changing the maf and that must be a month now :y
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I'm also a bit confused about the Lambda's producing that 'flatline' output, here's a snap of the four on my old 3.2...
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa163/vxl_v6/O2.jpg)
Which is what I'd expect to see
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MOT exhaust readings for the curious:-
1st fast idle test:-
RPM 2845 Pass
CO 0.003 Pass
HC 34 Pass
Lambda 1.340 Fail
2nd fast idle test:-
RPM 2750 Pass
CO 0.001 Pass
HC 6 Pass
Lambda 1.320 Fail
Natural idle:-
RPM 808 Pass
CO 0.002 Pass
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What was the coolant temp reading?
It not lambda sensor as the ECU is reporting it as open loop control!
Also, what was the throttle position reported to be and the inlet air temp?
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What was the coolant temp reading?
It not lambda sensor as the ECU is reporting it as open loop control!
Also, what was the throttle position reported to be and the inlet air temp?
Did look at that but didn't save the screen ::)
Can have another look at some point.
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Well warmed it up just now and unplugged the MAF, made little/no difference apart from putting the spanner light on ;D Any more ideas or do we need to re-read to get the TPS position and inlet temp do you think?
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You have a PM VXL :y
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On my car was the error, P0170, ECU and MAF. I had changed before the MAF and lambda, but the error was ECU. If the ECU is broken, it will result felt broken MAF.
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Mark DTM did you get my PM the other day?
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Right, we want to see.
Engine rpm
Coolant temp
Air temp
O2 loop status (closed/open)
Throttle position
MAF
And any current block learn/adaption values.
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I'll get on to VXL and sort tat all out for you. Going to remove and check the exhaust manifold tomorrow and fit new gaskets as well :y
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Once again VXL V6 has been a star and come over to help with this bl00dy 2.2....
Right some readings....
From cold startup:-
RPM = 796
Coolant Temp = 63 degC??????
Air Intake Temp = 14 degC
02 loop = Closed
TPS = Idle
MAF = 11 kg/h (0.71v)
Up to temp:-
RPM = 803
Coolant Temp = 90 degC
Air Intake Temp = 23 degC
02 loop = Open
TPS = Idle
MAF = 10 kg/h (0.63v)
Hot and revs:-
RPM = 2500
Coolant Temp = 99 degC
Air Intake Temp = 28 degC
02 loop = Open
TPS = Partial Load
MAF = 32 kg/h (1.6v)
Afterwards shows codes:-
P0130 02 Sensor 1
P0170 Lean Exhaust
If you rev it gently up to and past 2000 rpm it flutters as it passes through the 2k rev range (I say flutters because it's not like a miss)
Over to you Mr MDTM :y
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Cold Engine:-
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa163/vxl_v6/1st.jpg)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa163/vxl_v6/2nd.jpg)
Warm Engine:-
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa163/vxl_v6/3rd.jpg)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa163/vxl_v6/untitled5.jpg)
O2 Sensors (Warm Engine):-
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa163/vxl_v6/02.jpg)
Sensor readings:-
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa163/vxl_v6/untitled1.jpg)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa163/vxl_v6/untitled2.jpg)
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Thanks for that VXL :y
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Lambda sensor goosed.....rare fault.
Check the wires and connector first
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Lambda sensor goosed.....rare fault.
Check the wires and connector first
Both of them? (2 on a 2.2)
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Wow, hold that thought....
Has the cat been off?
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I think lee has done some welding up of the exhaust. :-/
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Right.....have we checked the 02 sensors are connected up correctly....i.e the right ones to the right connectors?
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Right.....have we checked the 02 sensors are connected up correctly....i.e the right ones to the right connectors?
Only go 1 way... pre-cat (as in the 1 between the cats) plugs up behind the head and the post-cat plugs in at the gearbox. The welding was the flexi joint. I had the pipe pressure tested and the flexi isn't leaking anymore.
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hi what diagnistic tool are you using? i have seen some on ebay at around £40 but not too sure as to their use.
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I'm going to pick up both exhaust manifold gaskets tomorrow (to head and to downpipe) and change them both. I'll try swopping the 2 lambda's over to see if it changes the flutter or not.
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The thing is that the system shows a closed loop setup when cold and then open loop when hot.
This points to either the O2 sensors not being connected correctly or an air leak buggering the readings up.
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Another thing.... what about the CTS temp at cold? Doesn't look right to me.
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The thing is that the system shows a closed loop setup when cold and then open loop when hot.
This points to either the O2 sensors not being connected correctly or an air leak buggering the readings up.
Hence me wanting to reseal it all at the head end :y
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Right!!! New head to manifold gasket purchased. Removed the manifold and the multi-layers of the old gasket instantly waved up. After an hour scraping the exhaust paste off the manifold and head I fitted the new gasket (without the paste I might add!). Then I cleaned up top of the downpipe, added a light smear of firegum, stuck the gasket to it, another smear of fire gum and nipped it up tight. Gently torqued up the manifold/head bolts and the top centre wouldn't torque up >:( Took it out along with full threads of head >:( Cleaned the stud up, added a big dollop of threadlock and wound it in, went for a cuppa and it torqued straight up ;D Fired her up and it dies! 3 or 4 attempts later fires up perfectly. No noticable sound difference but no more miss!!! So fingers crossed :y
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hi what diagnistic tool are you using? i have seen some on ebay at around £40 but not too sure as to their use.
It's the opelscanner and it's own software :y
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Well it's going back in for it's re-test first thing in the morning as that's the 10th working day since failing. I just hope the manifold re-seal has done enough.
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hi what diagnistic tool are you using? i have seen some on ebay at around £40 but not too sure as to their use.
It's the opelscanner and it's own software :y
Genuine Opelscanner not a copy from ebay with very early version of the software - many things have been added and corrected.
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Yep, it is the Opelscanner with USB interface.
Don't go near the eBay Opelscanners as they are copies with very old software that you won't be able to update.
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Rightio.... pulled up all fine, gets on the ramp and the rather' EML comes on again >:( >:( Lambda reading exactly the same! So any suggestions (Mark DTM?) before I set light to the rather' thing??? >:( >:( >:(
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Can you swap the pre-and post cat Lambda sensors over (i.e.remove from the exhaust and re-fit)
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Can you swap the pre-and post cat Lambda sensors over (i.e.remove from the exhaust and re-fit)
Quite easily, would I need to get the codes re-read then to show the other sensor at fault?
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Can you swap the pre-and post cat Lambda sensors over (i.e.remove from the exhaust and re-fit)
Quite easily, would I need to get the codes re-read then to show the other sensor at fault?
Ideally yes.
What we are fighting with is that the O2 sensor is not going closed loop although engine coolant temperature looks fine.
Remind me, does it tick over smoothly?
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Can you swap the pre-and post cat Lambda sensors over (i.e.remove from the exhaust and re-fit)
Quite easily, would I need to get the codes re-read then to show the other sensor at fault?
Ideally yes.
What we are fighting with is that the O2 sensor is not going closed loop although engine coolant temperature looks fine.
Remind me, does it tick over smoothly?
It wasn't until I replaced the manifold gasket and fixed the 1 stud, smooth as a baby's proverbial now. I will say though (not sure whether it's cause I'm used to a proper engine) it feels really underpowered, but once the EML came on it was much more responsive.
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Just thought I'd show you a couple of pics of the front lambda sensor (sorry about the quality):-
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n282/doris_minor/DSCF0471.jpg)
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n282/doris_minor/DSCF0473.jpg)
VX part no. 09 202 577 (12v)
I'll pull the rear one out tomorrow and swop them over then see when Andy can come back over.
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So much for me swopping them over today! Bl00dy thunder and lightning here atm :( :'(
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Right....
Front Lambda - 09 202 577
Rear Lambda - 09 202 576
They look identical apart from the cable length. Swopped them over anyway.
Cleared the P0170 code. Ran it until hot and through various rev ranges between tickover (about 800) and 3500. No EML or codes. Once hot left it ticking over for 3 minutes and P0170 came back on again. Turned it off, cleared the code and started back up again. I left it 20 minutes at hot tickover (when the light normally comes on) and it never came back on!! Do you think the lambda will still be reading high on the emissions test at this point?
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Flippin' 'eck!!! Only posted yesterday lunchtime and it's already at the bottom of page 4 :o :o :o (well it was ;D) Been out to the local super-scrappy (Saunders Bros. in Stourbridge) and spent 3/4 of an hour digging through a bucket of Lambda sensors! Found another 09 202 576 (long wire) for £15 :y I'll be playing at the weekend now I suppose ::)
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Right last chance before this car goes up in flames and the insurance claim form gets filled in >:( >:(
Picked up a replacement lambda, swopped it with the post-cat and fired her up. Once up to temp revs drop about 100 rpm and P0170, cleared it, revs return to normal. 30 seconds later exactly the same so removed the spare and replaced the post-cat lambda. Removed pre-cat lambda and replaced with spare. 30 seconds later the revs drop and P0170, cleared it, revs return and same again after 30 seconds later. So in conclusion the chances of me wasting £15 on a lambda sensor is very high. So the only thing left it could be is the cats???
I really wish I hadn't quit smoking now >:( >:( >:(
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Anybody?
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If its the only thing you hav'nt tried then it must be surely :-/
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If its the only thing you hav'nt tried then it must be surely :-/
Was it you that suggested the MAF??? I'm gonna buy a cheap eBay pattern MAF just to see if it could be that. If that doesn't cure it I'll probably break it.
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If its the only thing you hav'nt tried then it must be surely :-/
Was it you that suggested the MAF??? I'm gonna buy a cheap eBay pattern MAF just to see if it could be that. If that doesn't cure it I'll probably break it.
Yeah i got a new one and it cured my P0170 lean , been 2 months now and its not been back .... but my O2 readings didnt look like yours though :-/
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Well Pippin is (hopefully) coming over Friday so I can borrow his for half an hour, see what the codes say then eh :-/
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Right first of all some thank you's.... Pippin for offering to come over with his car, but due to unforeseen circumstances couldn't make it. Thanks to Smegmatt for making it over today with his car :y
Swopped his MAF onto my car, it started first time and no misfire (as before) and then ran it up to temp.
Checked off the codes and got a P0155 (02 sensor bank 2 sensor 1 heater) but ran smooth as a bell as opposed to before. Cleared that code off then came back with P0155 and P0170. Changed the MAF back to the original and the misfire returned along with the P0170 fault. Then had a P0110 (Air Intake Temp Sensor) along with the P0170.
So in conclusion I'm guessing (please correct me if I'm assuming incorrectly Mark) that the MAF is on it's last legs (for the intake temp and misfire) and the pre-cat 02 sensor heater circuit is inoperable????
I got to say I'll be glad to see the back of this car now >:(
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Ive just found this thread,and i have to say mine is along the same lines, i cant remember the exact code but it came up as Cat efficiency..
New downpipe fitted,full service...great...
2 hours later it starts to mis-fire badly,plugs it back in and shows EGR valve fault,gets new one fitted and all good,2 days later EML back on!
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HI
I am just trying to fix my friends car with exactly same problem. P0170 and lean exhaust.
MAF was replaced.
Second lambda replaced.
Spark plugs replaced.
Throttle body was cleaned - some improvement in power and low revs but P0170 still comes back.
It feels like there is a misfire every now and then.
Lamba readings are about 120 and 90mV and constant when on idle. When revved first one is going up a bit, but the second stand still.
O2 sensor is in open loop which worries me a bit.
I could only think of a cat but why would a lambda work in an open mode then?