Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: joshwyatt on 31 May 2010, 19:18:17
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It's quite impressive I think to manage to get all 6 missfiring ;D
Some will recognise the car and its issues.
James, Jamie and Tunnie have all seen the vehicle, Daz had a look today as well...many thanks to all.
Previously it had only been missfiring on 1-3-5 bank, plugs and coil pack changed...but didn't sort the missfire. Both James and Jamie have used diagnostic tools and checked all the usual stuff.
I don't use the car at all, but today Daz had a look at it, and it's the pedal trick reveals that now it's logged a fault code for the 2-4-6 banks, all codes are below;
0300
0302
0304
0306
0301
0303
0305
So this indicates missfire on every cylinder, the 2-4-6 bank has never been looked at, plugs are unkown and so is coil pack. What could cause a missifre on both banks? I think that must be the route cause of the vehicle's issue.
Symptoms for those who don't know the vehicle, lumpy tickover, then plenum vibrates and shakes even from cold, but once warm gets worse.
Could the common 3.2 pre cat issue explain any of this?
If it's worth it, I'll take a video clip of the vehicle tomorrow when it's stone dead cold so people can see what's what.
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Live data on the MAF reading would be one of my first checks
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Thanks Mark...that's something I'll look into then.
The thing that confused me a bit was now the 2-4-6 bank is complaning, I very much doubt it's a coincidence so whatever was causing the 1-3-5 missfire has obviously got a little worse.
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Has someone had a Tech 2 or computer on the car Josh?
I know for certain that there was a few things not plugged in etc.....
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James had plugged his code reader in, then Jamie had used his Tech 2 when I went over to Brackley. At that time, it was only missfiring on 1-3-5, and it hasn't been used since...only moved around a bit...and now the missfire on the 2-4-6 bank has developed.
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Has someone had a Tech 2 or computer on the car Josh?
I know for certain that there was a few things not plugged in etc.....
Only fault codes were 301 303 305 300, and they wouldn't appear until revs dropped to idle for more than a fews secs....
I know we unplugged some lamdas, certain we plugged them back in, guess its possible we didn't, as it did start to get dark. Certainly tech2'd it after checking cambelt, and only faultcodes were 1/3/5 misfire
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That's exactly what I thought TB, it was only showing 1-3-5, now it's got 2-4-6 aswell, so I guess whatever was causing the1-3-5 issue is now causing the 2-4-6 bank to miss.
I think it was the multi ram bit not connected, Daz got the rear working, but the fronts not working. I'm not bothered about that at all, it's just intriguing that it's now spread to the 2-4-6 bank.
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Has someone had a Tech 2 or computer on the car Josh?
I know for certain that there was a few things not plugged in etc.....
Only fault codes were 301 303 305 300, and they wouldn't appear until revs dropped to idle for more than a fews secs....
I know we unplugged some lamdas, certain we plugged them back in, guess its possible we didn't, as it did start to get dark. Certainly tech2'd it after checking cambelt, and only faultcodes were 1/3/5 misfire
Did you clear them after Jaime? as Josh did the pedal trick and had several codes, so wondering which are right
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Has someone had a Tech 2 or computer on the car Josh?
I know for certain that there was a few things not plugged in etc.....
Only fault codes were 301 303 305 300, and they wouldn't appear until revs dropped to idle for more than a fews secs....
I know we unplugged some lamdas, certain we plugged them back in, guess its possible we didn't, as it did start to get dark. Certainly tech2'd it after checking cambelt, and only faultcodes were 1/3/5 misfire
Did you clear them after Jaime? as Josh did the pedal trick and had several codes, so wondering which are right
I thought I did, but it was longer ago than yesterday, and I've probably had some firewater since :-[
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You did clear them TB, to see which one's would return, and I remember you saying something about clearing them right at the end of the night. The emissions light went out, and would flash every so often. It's now on all the time from start up and flashes every so often and then goes back to staying on. It's just the fact that the 2-4-6 bank is missfiring now, as we thought it could be the lambda sensor on the 1-3-5 side, but if it's now missing on the 2-4-6 side I doubt a replacement lambda would sort both sides.
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Did you buy this car with these faults Josh?
Did the previous owner tell you about them? if so what did they think was wrong?
I find it difficult to think that after you have changed the coil packs three times with totally different ones that both would suddenly go wrong..... maybe to give The Masters idea of Maf would be worth a try before spending to much money on new sensors...
I am also certain that when Pete came over here and I did his CAT upgrade, his car didn't missfire just had a fault code and light on.... so cant think that would be it either..
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Did you buy this car with these faults Josh?
Did the previous owner tell you about them? if so what did they think was wrong?
I find it difficult to think that after you have changed the coil packs three times with totally different ones that both would suddenly go wrong..... maybe to give The Masters idea of Maf would be worth a try before spending to much money on new sensors...
I am also certain that when Pete came over here and I did his CAT upgrade, his car didn't missfire just had a fault code and light on.... so cant think that would be it either..
That's what I was thinking Daz, all the coil packs can't have just died, and now the fact the missfire has developed on the other side aswell, kind of rules out the lambda on one side. So with my limited knowledge, it would make sense for one thing to be effecting both sides. I'll see if I can borrow a 3.2 MAF and swap it over to see if that cures it, or makes it any better. If the MAF was slowly failing it makes sense for it to be getting worse.
I think the biggest problem is as you said to me earlier, the i'fs and buts'...MAF might cure it, lambda might cure it, don't know until I try...but that's possibly spending money unecessarily and still not fixing the fault.
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It did seem like an Air Leak to me at first as the tick over was rough as a rough thing....
What I meant was we need to find out what is the problem before throwing money at it blindly if you follow me ;)
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It did seem like an Air Leak to me at first as the tick over was rough as a rough thing....
What I meant was we need to find out what is the problem before throwing money at it blindly if you follow me ;)
Have no fear, the moths in my wallet rarely see daylight ;D
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Couldnt you swap the maf for one from another car just to try to eliminate it Josh? :-/
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Have you tried running it with the MAF disconnected?
It will complain, obviously, but it will substitute reasonable values for the fuelling that should make it run without a misfire.
Can you read live data? If so, check the MAF reading at idle and fast idle (e.g. 2500 RPM). In addition, see what the fuel trims are doing.
Kevin
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To me, its not coil packs or lambdas for the simple reason as I dont buy into multiple simultaneous failures (there being 6 coils and 2 lambdas).
The MAF can and will affect the running in such a way.
The coolant temp can do some starnge things but, it would run fine when cold or when hot an not both under such a fault.
Hence the MAF adn the need to look at live valves as the data from this determines the basic fuel mix for ALL cylinders which is then tweaked by the fuel trim from the lambdas.
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this is just a stab in the dark as i don't really know how it works but could this not be a fault on the traction control as that gives the impression of a miss fire to me, i understand the car has to be driving for this to work but faults can appear in may forms if this is total gaga and wrong sorry (its just a thought)
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Unplugged the MAF, and no noticeable difference.
I know that James and Jamie have extensively looked at live data figures etc, and they may have looked at fuel trim values, and MAF values etc, I know James looked at coolant temp sensor etc so I think a fair few things have been discounted.
I'm just trying to find my camera, as that also takes video clips...I think that may be the best thing to do, so people can see exacelty what I'm talking about.
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Unplugged the MAF, and no noticeable difference.
I know that James and Jamie have extensively looked at live data figures etc, and they may have looked at fuel trim values, and MAF values etc, I know James looked at coolant temp sensor etc so I think a fair few things have been discounted.
I'm just trying to find my camera, as that also takes video clips...I think that may be the best thing to do, so people can see exacelty what I'm talking about.
I still think it's wiring to the coil packs :-/
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Unplugged the MAF, and no noticeable difference.
I know that James and Jamie have extensively looked at live data figures etc, and they may have looked at fuel trim values, and MAF values etc, I know James looked at coolant temp sensor etc so I think a fair few things have been discounted.
I'm just trying to find my camera, as that also takes video clips...I think that may be the best thing to do, so people can see exacelty what I'm talking about.
I still think it's wiring to the coil packs :-/
Could well be James...but now it's missfiring on the 2-4-6 bank aswell so it's not just the 1-3-5 side. Your idea of the loom itself seems like the most plausable idea, I wonder if heat has broken down the connection somewhere and is now effecting the 2-4-6 side.
If the heads were off it, and recon head fitted in it's previous owners time, is it possible a wire could be trapped or something not fitted correctly?
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Unplugged the MAF, and no noticeable difference.
I know that James and Jamie have extensively looked at live data figures etc, and they may have looked at fuel trim values, and MAF values etc, I know James looked at coolant temp sensor etc so I think a fair few things have been discounted.
I'm just trying to find my camera, as that also takes video clips...I think that may be the best thing to do, so people can see exacelty what I'm talking about.
I still think it's wiring to the coil packs :-/
From memory, the coil packs have a trigger signal to each coil driver from the ECU in addition to a +12v supply and Ground signal.
It's very unlikely that all trigger signals have gone AWOL together so that leaves the +12v and ground. I guess it's possible (likely) that both coil packs share the same supply and ground connections so they might be worth a look.
In addition, don't know if the ECU shares the same ground or a different one, but, if grounded to a different point, that might be worth a look too. I know for a fact that the coil pack supply comes directly from the ignition switched feed whereas most other engine management parts are fed from the main relay under the bonnet.
Also, the misfire could be fuel related, so injector wiring worth a check, as is fuel pressure / flow to the injectors.
Kevin
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No, the coils dont work off triggers they are coils with a Pos supply and low side drive.
And my experience of the MAF faults is that unplugging makes little difference (as per Mr Dundee's)
I dont buy coil pack wiring either as thats a multiple failure.
I would check the main engine 0V connection (but dont hold out much hope)
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Injector wiring fault would throw a code.......
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.........and is again multiple failures
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There's a short video here, the camera used isn't great, but it's all I had available, there's also an iregularity with the sound, but this is due to the camera and not the vehicle. (Best viewed with the sound turned up fairly high) A cup of blue water is on the plenum so you can see how it vibrates. It is started from stone dead cold, the camera isn't of sufficient quality to really capture what it's like. It cycles through initial start up showing plenum then to exhaust, then back to plenum after been running for two minutes then back to exhaust. The dash shot shows the idle as being fairly steady, but this gets worse after a short period.
It's not a good quality film, I'll endevaur to try and produce a better one.
The symptoms steadily get worse, the idle begins to hunt and nearly stalls but it keeps itself running.
I appreciate there will always be vibration on the plenum, but I've had three 3.2's and none were anything like this.
If I'd continued to film you see it gets worse and the whole engine appears to shake.
(http://i674.photobucket.com/albums/vv110/joshwyatt/th_Video0025.jpg) (http://s674.photobucket.com/albums/vv110/joshwyatt/?action=view¤t=Video0025.flv)
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I had a similar type of thing happen on Judd V8 a couple years ago, we looked high and low, injectors, leads, plugs, coils, cps, throttle pot, striped the engine loom looking for chaffing, all the sensors etc checked all the wiring in the cockpit as well and couldn't find anything. After messing for 3 or 4 days the owner decided to have the engine out and send it back to Connaught for a strip and inspection so we started disconnecting everything and then we found the problem, the main plug to the engine ECU had become damp inside the rubber seal(it shouldn't have done as it was located inside a sealed box inside the cockpit) we dried it out and cleaned it thoroughly and put everything back together and the missfire had gone completely. This may not be the problem with yours but it's always worth having a look just to make sure just to rule it out :y
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Sounds very much like a MAF reading high Josh.
At cold when on enrichment then its better, as it warms up and goes off enrichment it gets worse.
As said, I have seen a few that read high and live data would confirm this
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Sounds very much like a MAF reading high Josh.
At cold when on enrichment then its better, as it warms up and goes off enrichment it gets worse.
As said, I have seen a few that read high and live data would confirm this
Thank you Mark, I certainly appreciate your imput in this...I know when everyone's out of ideas...they all ring you up to ask you what you think ;D
I'll get a live data read on the MAF. I think a code reader is going to be the next thing I'll need to invest in.
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For info, its a pretty common bosch item part number 0280 217 121 or 5WK9600 and is use on Citroens (2.8 HDi Relays), Vx 2.6 and 3.2 V's, Vx Vectra and Frontera 2.2Dti's and 2.8 Jtd Fiats
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Sounds very much like a MAF reading high Josh.
At cold when on enrichment then its better, as it warms up and goes off enrichment it gets worse.
As said, I have seen a few that read high and live data would confirm this
Thank you Mark, I certainly appreciate your imput in this...I know when everyone's out of ideas...they all ring you up to ask you what you think ;D
I'll get a live data read on the MAF. I think a code reader is going to be the next thing I'll need to invest in.
Put a wanted add in the Wanted Section Josh then try it.. :y
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I would check the main engine 0V connection (but dont hold out much hope)
This is one of the first things I tried
With a jump lead between the -VE terminal and the engine, the problem did seem to go away for the first time ever, and was fine.
However, the problem later returned with said jump lead still in place.
Still reckon it's wiring (somewhere) :-/
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I would check the main engine 0V connection (but dont hold out much hope)
This is one of the first things I tried
With a jump lead between the -VE terminal and the engine, the problem did seem to go away for the first time ever, and was fine.
However, the problem later returned with said jump lead still in place.
Still reckon it's wiring (somewhere) :-/
Nah, If it was there would be fault codes.....the only remote possible is the coil pos supply....and thats a real rank outsider.
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According to the TC website the 2.6 and 3.2 MAF is the same, whether it be auto or manual. So, firstly I'll see if anyone local with a V6 DBW engine minds me borrowing their MAF for a few minutes, I imagine if a good MAF is used it should rid the fault, or will it only make it a bit better? I may be totally mistaken, but remember reading something about either the MAF or something else having to learn for a bit before the MAF will work properly?
MAF is £133 on TC so think it would be prudent to try one first to see if that makes any difference then buy one.
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MDTM - WRT MAF, when I saw it, it was responding fine, approx 15kg at idle, up to 40kg when revved. Obviously, thats what the ECU thought it was reading - not to say its not talking rubbish, just the figures looked plausible.
Additionally, when I saw it, it was defo only 1/3/5 missfire. No evidence to suggest 2/4/6 missfire then... ....so something has changed.
Its absolutely fine on warm up fast idle, then when it steps down to standard idle, it starts to gradually 'suffocate' - to me it was as it it was trimming back too far, though live data didn't show this.
I have a 2.5 MAF here, but guess thats different...
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MDTM - WRT MAF, when I saw it, it was responding fine, approx 15kg at idle, up to 40kg when revved. Obviously, thats what the ECU thought it was reading - not to say its not talking rubbish, just the figures looked plausible.
Additionally, when I saw it, it was defo only 1/3/5 missfire. No evidence to suggest 2/4/6 missfire then... ....so something has changed.
Its absolutely fine on warm up fast idle, then when it steps down to standard idle, it starts to gradually 'suffocate' - to me it was as it it was trimming back too far, though live data didn't show this.
I have a 2.5 MAF here, but guess thats different...
Yes, its different.
From memory, 12kg is about right for idle with 15 being a little high, once they get to 18+ it gets quite messy
If its heading north then you would expect the weaker bank to suffer first which would then progress to the other bank as is continued off track
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MDTM - WRT MAF, when I saw it, it was responding fine, approx 15kg at idle, up to 40kg when revved. Obviously, thats what the ECU thought it was reading - not to say its not talking rubbish, just the figures looked plausible.
Additionally, when I saw it, it was defo only 1/3/5 missfire. No evidence to suggest 2/4/6 missfire then... ....so something has changed.
Its absolutely fine on warm up fast idle, then when it steps down to standard idle, it starts to gradually 'suffocate' - to me it was as it it was trimming back too far, though live data didn't show this.
I have a 2.5 MAF here, but guess thats different...
Yes, its different.
From memory, 12kg is about right for idle with 15 being a little high, once they get to 18+ it gets quite messy
If its heading north then you would expect the weaker bank to suffer first which would then progress to the other bank as is continued off track
Ta :y
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Coil pack changed so lots of rummaging about behind 246 head....
Check all 3 earths are still attached to the back of the 246 head.
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Coil pack changed so lots of rummaging about behind 246 head....
Check all 3 earths are still attached to the back of the 246 head.
Not present on drive by wire setups :y