Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: black beauty on 13 July 2010, 16:04:25
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Hi guys hope some of you may be able to help a girl in distress, my 3.0 v6 elite has been under powerd of late but shows no faults on the dash lights, i just had the paperclip test carried out and have found code 19 stored in the memory and have found it is in reference to incorrect rpm signal, would this cause my car to be feeling less responsive or is it an old code dont know what else to do so just throwing it out there, please help thanks Kack :-* :-* :-*
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19 is the Crank Sensor on the V6. :y
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so if i need the sensor would this have caused loss in power but not shown up on the dash lights, and do i need to reset anything when fitted or dose it sort itself out if running correctly, thnaks for the quick reply, Kack ;D
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Change the crank sensor before it fails completly and leaves you stranded. Good "how to" in the guides.
Code will go once the new sensor fitted.
As the cranksensor is part of the ignition timing setup for the ECU it could have an effect on performance .. but generally it shows up more when trying to start when hot .. and failing !!
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OK thanks for the help i guess its off ot the dealer for some parts then, cheers Kack :y
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Kack:
when it fails, it doesn't give many symptoms, but can have an effect on performance for a short time, then just goes.........
Do it now before it just fails on a junction or somewhere isolated!!
mike.
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To add to other people's warnings, my crank sensor decided to give up just outside Dijon in France, somewhat inconveniently...
Even if its not the reason for the performance drop (may or may not be related), it needs changing before it lets you down at the most inconvenient time (when it gives up, the car will cut out and probably not start for a while)
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Have seen this fault code just because the engine is not running, can't see it causing the car to be under powered either to be honest.
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Have seen this fault code just because the engine is not running, can't see it causing the car to be under powered either to be honest.
methinks you may be confusing a 31 and a 19 ... 31 IS the engine not running, No RPM DTC, 19 is incorrect RPM ...
Cranksensor tells the ECU exactly where the crankshaft is at any point in time. It is the main contributor to the timing of the spark to give ignition, the ECU uses other sensors to modify the timing ..but the cranksensor gives the baseline.
With no signal - totally failed CS - the ECU will give no spark ... so the engine will not start.
If the signal is at the "wrong" time - wrong RPM - failing CS .... it is like running an old fashioned engine with the distributor in the wrong place .. timing is way out and so is the power of the engine.
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Oh ok my mistake, hope a new sensor fixes the symptoms. Either way I would reset and see if it reappears before replacement.
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Oh ok my mistake, hope a new sensor fixes the symptoms. Either way I would reset and see if it reappears before replacement.
With a 19, and the inevitable outcome, I would recommend changing the sensor for the sake of £40....
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Hi and thanks for all the replies, just to confirm it reads as a 19 code with either the engine running or not as i thought of this when first checking the memory, and re did the test with the engine running and the three 1-2 codes flashed and then the three 1-9 codes and back to the start, although the engine light was pulsing slightly while doing it, just to let you know what it was showing, cheers Kack ;)
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Oh ok my mistake, hope a new sensor fixes the symptoms. Either way I would reset and see if it reappears before replacement.
With a 19, and the inevitable outcome, I would recommend changing the sensor for the sake of £40....
Couldn't agree more - code 19 means buy and fit a new genuine Vx crank sensor - but reroute it as per Marks howto ;)
A reset and wait is a complete waste of time - wrong advice!! >:(
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Wow I can understand how people get upset on this forum :(
I have been a member for quite a while but haven't really actively posted due to work commitments etc.
Perhaps its a given on the omega if this fault code appears, but I would never replace a component without first proving its faulty.
Apologies for crashing the thread. :y
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Wow I can understand how people get upset on this forum :(
I have been a member for quite a while but haven't really actively posted due to work commitments etc.
Perhaps its a given on the omega if this fault code appears, but I would never replace a component without first proving its faulty.
Apologies for crashing the thread. :y
No apology needed mate as you were trying to help as I see it :y
The Crank Sensor is a pain and when it does fail completely the car will not start and has left alot of people in a bit of a pickle to say the least. If you do get a code 19 it really is best to change it asap to save yourself grief ;)
Don't think anyone was being funny :y
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Wow I can understand how people get upset on this forum :(
I have been a member for quite a while but haven't really actively posted due to work commitments etc.
Perhaps its a given on the omega if this fault code appears, but I would never replace a component without first proving its faulty.
Apologies for crashing the thread. :y
IMHO it has been proved to be faulty ... code 19, engine underpowered.
It is one of the few "stoppers" to the V6. I even carry a spare one in the boot ... Mr Green Flag might have to supply some tools .. but I won't be stuck .. again .. :)
I'm not sure how you would go further in "proving" it is at fault ???
Not so long ago I stopped to help someone in a car park .. the AA were going to relay the car 200 odd miles and were indicating the engine was "beyond repair" ... I persuaded them to go 3 miles down the road and get a new part, then told the guy how to reroute the cable.
An hour after I stopped the car drove away.
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As I say perhaps its a given on the Omega, I would agree on a non start its the first port of call perhaps after the immobilser.
I am a technical specialist for a company that produce oscilloscopes for automotive diagnostics, so I am used to seeing any faults with a component, before replacement.
Would love to get my hands on this faulty sensor, I would then happily show you the difference in output.
Hope thats useful.
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As I say perhaps its a given on the Omega, I would agree on a non start its the first port of call perhaps after the immobilser.
I am a technical specialist for a company that produce oscilloscopes for automotive diagnostics, so I am used to seeing any faults with a component, before replacement.
Would love to get my hands on this faulty sensor, I would then happily show you the difference in output.
Hope thats useful.
That would be rather interesting I think :y
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As I say perhaps its a given on the Omega, I would agree on a non start its the first port of call perhaps after the immobilser.
I am a technical specialist for a company that produce oscilloscopes for automotive diagnostics, so I am used to seeing any faults with a component, before replacement.
Would love to get my hands on this faulty sensor, I would then happily show you the difference in output.
Hope thats useful.
I accept what you say .. and given the right kit most things are "testable" ..however, this fault WILL stop the car.. DEAD. and if it happens in the wrong place you are STUCK.
So if it is playing up, starting to fail, being stupid, whatever words you wish ... it is, for the sake of £40 .. worth changing.
You don't wait until the engine seizes to change the oil ... preventative maintenance has a place as well.
Just my thoughts .. nowt else .. :)
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I reckon so too Daz, got the head gaskets and manifolds done and all running lovely, bodykit and LPG swap over still to do - will drop by soon :y
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I reckon so too Daz, got the head gaskets and manifolds done and all running lovely, bodykit and LPG swap over still to do - will drop by soon :y
Will put the kettle on then :y
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Wow I can understand how people get upset on this forum :(
I have been a member for quite a while but haven't really actively posted due to work commitments etc.
Perhaps its a given on the omega if this fault code appears, but I would never replace a component without first proving its faulty.
Apologies for crashing the thread. :y
Sorry - not being funny mate - but your advice is wrong - code 19 proves it to be faulty.
Unfortunately we have had a run on here of incorrect advice being given (Rustym95 and his other alias) and incorrect advice may cause other OOFers grief and extra costs. Suggest if you're unsure that your advice is 100%, say so in your post otherwise it may be taken as gospel. :y
No offence intended!!
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I agree Entwood, without the right equipment its the only sensible option and very good advice.
However I don't think resetting the code and checking it reappears is bad advice either.
Enough said I think :)
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A failing CS will rear it's ugly head soon enough if you clear the code, proving it's not an old stored code.
If the sensor hasn't failed completely the 19 shows as not present so it's an easy job to clear and prove faulty when it reappears.
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I agree Entwood, without the right equipment its the only sensible option and very good advice.
However I don't think resetting the code and checking it reappears is bad advice either.
Enough said I think :)
Agreed .. but one last thing to add .. not really relevant to this thread .. but as background.
The crank sensor failing can do so without giving a code 19 on many occasions, or the code comes and goes. The way the codes are stored .. if the CS is starting to fail it may give a code one day .. then work fine for several starts, so clearing the code. Then it fails completely. It may well not give a code then.. as 0 RPM is NOT an incorrect RPM .. the ecu just thinks the engine is stationary !!!
it is not wholly satisfactory .. but history shows this is the case.. and a CS change usually sorts it .. :)
as you said .. enough said now .. :)
EDIT .. what Captain Zok says is correct, if you use a code reader ... for those using the "paperclip" method it is less clear cut .. :)
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OK so what code would be produced if the phonic wheel that the crank sensor is looking at had a damaged tooth???
Please don't say my advice is wrong.
The fault code is saying incorrect rpm, this could be produced for many reasons if you think about it a little.
Sorry not so good on these forums should be quoting dbug here.
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OK guys seems to be getting plenty of advice here, have had problems starting the car and sounded rough almost like it was starting after having the battery removed and wiped everything from the ecu, and also down on power when driving, have just had a gear box change done as it wasnt shifting up quickly enough to top gear, by the way anybody got a link for the refitting of the new crank sensor as i know it runs round the side of the gearbox bellhousing on the oil cooler pipes, bet you never thought i was under my car as much for a 40kg girl i can pull my weight, Kack ;) :-*
PS if i get the old sensor off do you want to have it for test purposes cheers Kack
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I'd be guessing a normal CS output would be square wave ish with an elongated space at TDC going off the cutouts on the wheel. So wheel damage would give more long space pulses maybe.
But wouldn't you then get a similar signal with a wire on the sensor intermittently shorting out?
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OK guys seems to be getting plenty of advice here, have had problems starting the car and sounded rough almost like it was starting after having the battery removed and wiped everything from the ecu, and also down on power when driving, have just had a gear box change done as it wasnt shifting up quickly enough to top gear, by the way anybody got a link for the refitting of the new crank sensor as i know it runs round the side of the gearbox bellhousing on the oil cooler pipes, bet you never thought i was under my car as much for a 40kg girl i can pull my weight, Kack ;) :-*
PS if i get the old sensor off do you want to have it for test purposes cheers Kack
If it's the original the factory routing means it's an absolute pig to remove without cutting the end off.
Follow Mark's guide in the maintainance section and reroute it up the inner wing behind the brake lines.
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I'd be guessing a normal CS output would be square wave ish with an elongated space at TDC going off the cutouts on the wheel. So wheel damage would give more long space pulses maybe.
But wouldn't you then get a similar signal with a wire on the sensor intermittently shorting out?
Nearly, you would think it would be square because the teeth are, however the teeth actually produce triangular peaks if that makes sense, correct on the missing tooth producing a gap. If people are interested I could post an example, if I can remember my password for images :-/
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OK so what code would be produced if the phonic wheel that the crank sensor is looking at had a damaged tooth???
Please don't say my advice is wrong.
The fault code is saying incorrect rpm, this could be produced for many reasons if you think about it a little.
Sorry not so good on these forums should be quoting dbug here.
Probably a 31, possibly a 19, dependant when the breakage occured, as the engine wouldn't start even with a good crank sensor. However suspect that to be a very very obscure fault - normally a 19 refers to failed crank sensor (wiring usually fails not actual sensor) which is a common fault on Omegas due to the close proximity of the sensor wiring to the exhaust. Rerouting helps it last longer!!
If the phonic wheel that the crank sensor is looking at had a damaged tooth, clearing a 19 code and waiting would not help. As the engine would not then start, the only code showing would be 31(Engine RPM signal (crankshaft sensor) - No signal) - normal for an engine not running. Still think your advice unhelpful - sorry my opinion.
19 fault code is saying "Incorrect RPM signal (crankshaft sensor)"
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I'd be guessing a normal CS output would be square wave ish with an elongated space at TDC going off the cutouts on the wheel. So wheel damage would give more long space pulses maybe.
But wouldn't you then get a similar signal with a wire on the sensor intermittently shorting out?
Nearly, you would think it would be square because the teeth are, however the teeth actually produce triangular peaks if that makes sense, correct on the missing tooth producing a gap. If people are interested I could post an example, if I can remember my password for images :-/
Due to it being a proximity sensor not a digital on/off?
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I'd be guessing a normal CS output would be square wave ish with an elongated space at TDC going off the cutouts on the wheel. So wheel damage would give more long space pulses maybe.
But wouldn't you then get a similar signal with a wire on the sensor intermittently shorting out?
Nearly, you would think it would be square because the teeth are, however the teeth actually produce triangular peaks if that makes sense, correct on the missing tooth producing a gap. If people are interested I could post an example, if I can remember my password for images :-/
Due to it being a proximity sensor not a digital on/off?
Yep pretty much - most crank sensor are inductive, generating there own voltage.
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OK so what code would be produced if the phonic wheel that the crank sensor is looking at had a damaged tooth???
Please don't say my advice is wrong.
The fault code is saying incorrect rpm, this could be produced for many reasons if you think about it a little.
Sorry not so good on these forums should be quoting dbug here.
Probably a 31, possibly a 19, dependant when the breakage occured, as the engine wouldn't start even with a good crank sensor. However suspect that to be a very very obscure fault - normally a 19 refers to failed crank sensor (wiring usually fails not actual sensor) which is a common fault on Omegas due to the close proximity of the sensor wiring to the exhaust. Rerouting helps it last longer!!
If the phonic wheel that the crank sensor is looking at had a damaged tooth, clearing a 19 code and waiting would not help. As the engine would not then start, the only code showing would be 31(Engine RPM signal (crankshaft sensor) - No signal) - normal for an engine not running. Still think your advice unhelpful - sorry my opinion.
19 fault code is saying "Incorrect RPM signal (crankshaft sensor)"
Interesting opinion, to be fair I suppose it depends on the intelligence programmed into the engine ECU. A Renault fitted with an incorrect flywheel (two missing teeth) after a rebuild was happy to idle at 1600 rpm for example.
Anyway enough thread crashing for one evening I think :)
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so that means they are inductive sensors as opposed to npn or pnp is that correct kack
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I reckon so too Daz, got the head gaskets and manifolds done and all running lovely, bodykit and LPG swap over still to do - will drop by soon :y
Will put the kettle on then :y
Don't forget Daz - no sugar! ;D
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Cough cough, let me get the duster out ;D
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Cough cough, let me get the duster out ;D
Nah its only 18 months ago ;D ;D