Omega Owners Forum

Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Rob-Mitton on 27 July 2010, 16:08:58

Title: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: Rob-Mitton on 27 July 2010, 16:08:58
On start up she runs lumpy as hell. by the time I get to the bottom of my road all is well again. No issues on start up if it's not been left very long. 9 hours at work and same lumpy running on start up, then clears again. No great plumes of white smoke either!

I've read that it could be water getting into the bores. Is this correct. She's a great car, but if it's gonna start costing mega bucks, she's gonna have to get broken i'm afraid.

Cheers in advance.

Rob
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: Abiton on 27 July 2010, 16:34:33
Are you losing any coolant?
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: shane1000 on 27 July 2010, 16:35:10
if it is the head gasket its going to cost at a garage in the region of £1200. i ended up scrapping the car. sounds about the same symptoms as mine.. do you get any smells in the cab?? like an oil and water mix? ....or it could be simply blocked breathers
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: Elite Pete on 27 July 2010, 16:40:32
Quote
if it is the head gasket its going to cost at a garage in the region of £1200. i ended up scrapping the car. sounds about the same symptoms as mine.. do you get any smells in the cab?? like an oil and water mix? ....or it could be simply blocked breathers
:o

Shouldn't be any more than about £400
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: Rob-Mitton on 27 July 2010, 16:42:05
Quote
Are you losing any coolant?

Yeah, but no great plumes of white smoke.

No smells in the cab either, other than my feet  ;D

Rob
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: mark.adams on 27 July 2010, 16:57:55
Any mayo under the oil filler cap or on the dipstick.
I'm just in the process of replacing my head gasket after having the head welded and skimmed.
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: Andy B on 27 July 2010, 17:07:39
Quote
Quote
if it is the head gasket its going to cost at a garage in the region of £1200. i ended up scrapping the car. sounds about the same symptoms as mine.. do you get any smells in the cab?? like an oil and water mix? ....or it could be simply blocked breathers
:o

Shouldn't be any more than about £400

It cost the previous owner of my car similar money to have them done when the car was a little over a year old!  :o
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 27 July 2010, 17:11:43
Quote
Quote
Quote
if it is the head gasket its going to cost at a garage in the region of £1200. i ended up scrapping the car. sounds about the same symptoms as mine.. do you get any smells in the cab?? like an oil and water mix? ....or it could be simply blocked breathers
:o

Shouldn't be any more than about £400

It cost the previous owner of my car similar money to have them done when the car was a little over a year old!  :o

No warranty cover? :o :o
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: PhilRich on 27 July 2010, 17:18:15
First things first!
1. Are you losing coolant from the expansion bottle?
2. Can you find the source of the leak in the engine bay?
3. Is there a smell of petrol or exhaust gas in the coolant bottle?
4. Is the cooling system pressurising, can you see air bubbles entering the expansion bottle from the small diameter hoses?
5. Is there any oil in the coolant or coolant (mayonnaise) in the oil?
6. Leave the car to cool down overnight & then remove the plugs one by one & shine a bright torch into the plug hole, can you see any liquid in the bores? or firmly tape a cotton bud to long pencil or similar and carefully lower into the bore until it touches the piston head and check if it is wet when removed.

Note: Even if the head gasket has gone, it is not a difficult job to do it yourself with some basic tools and a common sense approach to the job, you do not have to be a mechanic to fix a 2.2 head gasket & it will cost in the region of £150 ota in parts plus approx. another £30 - £40 to get the head skimmed if that is necessary. Plus you will get all the help you need on here for free too!  :y
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: Andy B on 27 July 2010, 17:23:48
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
if it is the head gasket its going to cost at a garage in the region of £1200. i ended up scrapping the car. sounds about the same symptoms as mine.. do you get any smells in the cab?? like an oil and water mix? ....or it could be simply blocked breathers
:o

Shouldn't be any more than about £400

It cost the previous owner of my car similar money to have them done when the car was a little over a year old!  :o

No warranty cover? :o :o

maybe I'm wrong then ....  :-/ I know it wasn't very old at the time though
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: tunnie on 27 July 2010, 17:24:26
must have been a Vauxhall  ::)
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: Andy B on 27 July 2010, 17:26:03
Quote
must have been a Vauxhall  ::)


 :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: tunnie on 27 July 2010, 17:28:49
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Quote
must have been Vauxhall  ::)


 :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?

A was typo, meant so say it was Vauxhall at that price
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: Andy B on 27 July 2010, 17:34:56
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Quote
Quote
must have been Vauxhall  ::)


 :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?  :-?

A was typo, meant so say it was Vauxhall at that price

Certainly was.  ;)
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 27 July 2010, 17:48:49
I would say 4 hours and about 100 quids worth of bits.

You may wish to add in a cambelt kit and water pump if its due soon and if its mega bad a head skim (about 20-30 quid extra)

SO...even at Vx proices, 600 quid.

1200 quid must have included a replacement head
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: Abiton on 27 July 2010, 18:06:01
When I was getting bits to do ours last summer, I asked Vx what they'd have charged for the job.  I was told "Around £800, if it all went well and no studs break off in the head or anything..."

 :o

If it does need doing, have a go yourself, or ask one of the kind 'travelling omega gods' on here to come and do it for you, or take the car to one of them.  :y
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: Andy B on 27 July 2010, 18:07:18
Quote
I would say 4 hours and about 100 quids worth of bits.

You may wish to add in a cambelt kit and water pump if its due soon and if its mega bad a head skim (about 20-30 quid extra)

SO...even at Vx proices, 600 quid.

1200 quid must have included a replacement head

Print out suggests they removed head & refitted them. 'Coolant loss traced to leaking cylindr head gaskets. Removed both cylinder head gaskets as required' done at 73500 miles & I was slightly out with the price at £1038.50  ::) and the age  ::), done in Oct 02 (car registered 05/99)
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: RossMk2 on 27 July 2010, 18:09:48
Im suspecting my head gaskets have gone also. I stripped the inlet right down to the coolant bridge as i have water around the back of both heads and was told maybe its leaking from there, but its dry as a bone, looks like its coming straight from the heads. Im slowly loosing coolant but i dont get any of the other side effect of mayo etc...
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: Rob-Mitton on 27 July 2010, 20:04:09
Quote
First things first!
1. Are you losing coolant from the expansion bottle?
2. Can you find the source of the leak in the engine bay?
3. Is there a smell of petrol or exhaust gas in the coolant bottle?
4. Is the cooling system pressurising, can you see air bubbles entering the expansion bottle from the small diameter hoses?
5. Is there any oil in the coolant or coolant (mayonnaise) in the oil?
6. Leave the car to cool down overnight & then remove the plugs one by one & shine a bright torch into the plug hole, can you see any liquid in the bores? or firmly tape a cotton bud to long pencil or similar and carefully lower into the bore until it touches the piston head and check if it is wet when removed.

Note: Even if the head gasket has gone, it is not a difficult job to do it yourself with some basic tools and a common sense approach to the job, you do not have to be a mechanic to fix a 2.2 head gasket & it will cost in the region of £150 ota in parts plus approx. another £30 - £40 to get the head skimmed if that is necessary. Plus you will get all the help you need on here for free too!  :y


I know there's no sign of Mayo in the oil or expansion tank, these are the first things I checked. I'll check the rest this weekend. Cheers for the pointers.

If i'm only looking at £150ish then i'll do it myself. Just in the process of putting a zx9r b model back together in the diningroom (the wife's not happy, lol)

I bought it to tow my caravan and to get me the 80 mile round trip to work in Goole from Sheffield, which she does with ease. I was luck as we got an estate in at work to break that had a dog guard and full un-used tow bar.

I'm really enjoying the car, this is the only niggle and i'd love to get it sorted. (Would a 3.0L elite model engine fit?? Got one of those in as well)

Cheers for all the help lads :)

Rob
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: Abiton on 27 July 2010, 21:25:05
Quote
Quote
First things first!
1. Are you losing coolant from the expansion bottle?
2. Can you find the source of the leak in the engine bay?
3. Is there a smell of petrol or exhaust gas in the coolant bottle?
4. Is the cooling system pressurising, can you see air bubbles entering the expansion bottle from the small diameter hoses?
5. Is there any oil in the coolant or coolant (mayonnaise) in the oil?
6. Leave the car to cool down overnight & then remove the plugs one by one & shine a bright torch into the plug hole, can you see any liquid in the bores? or firmly tape a cotton bud to long pencil or similar and carefully lower into the bore until it touches the piston head and check if it is wet when removed.

Note: Even if the head gasket has gone, it is not a difficult job to do it yourself with some basic tools and a common sense approach to the job, you do not have to be a mechanic to fix a 2.2 head gasket & it will cost in the region of £150 ota in parts plus approx. another £30 - £40 to get the head skimmed if that is necessary. Plus you will get all the help you need on here for free too!  :y


I know there's no sign of Mayo in the oil or expansion tank, these are the first things I checked. I'll check the rest this weekend. Cheers for the pointers.

If i'm only looking at £150ish then i'll do it myself. Just in the process of putting a zx9r b model back together in the diningroom (the wife's not happy, lol)

I bought it to tow my caravan and to get me the 80 mile round trip to work in Goole from Sheffield, which she does with ease. I was luck as we got an estate in at work to break that had a dog guard and full un-used tow bar.

I'm really enjoying the car, this is the only niggle and i'd love to get it sorted. (Would a 3.0L elite model engine fit?? Got one of those in as well)

Cheers for all the help lads :)

Rob

It sounds like you have the skills/facilities.  ;D

I bought everything from Vx, but I think various members (e.g. Marks DTM Calibration?) have said that other suppliers are better value/equal quality on the HG itself, headbolts and cambelt kits.  Stay with Vx for exhaust mani gasket (metal multilayer) if you take that off, and camcover gasket.

There's a (camshaft sprocket) locking wedge readily available that makes replacement of cambelt easier, for very little cash, that I would have invested in if I'd known it existed. Fiver well spent, I'd think.

P.S. Philrich's list of diagnostics is spot on.  :)
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: adi191927 on 27 July 2010, 21:26:40
Labour times remove and install cylinder head 4.7 hours

Labour times strip and rebuild                       7.9 hours

According to autodata.
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: PhilRich on 27 July 2010, 23:08:28
Quote
Quote
Quote
First things first!
1. Are you losing coolant from the expansion bottle?
2. Can you find the source of the leak in the engine bay?
3. Is there a smell of petrol or exhaust gas in the coolant bottle?
4. Is the cooling system pressurising, can you see air bubbles entering the expansion bottle from the small diameter hoses?
5. Is there any oil in the coolant or coolant (mayonnaise) in the oil?
6. Leave the car to cool down overnight & then remove the plugs one by one & shine a bright torch into the plug hole, can you see any liquid in the bores? or firmly tape a cotton bud to long pencil or similar and carefully lower into the bore until it touches the piston head and check if it is wet when removed.

Note: Even if the head gasket has gone, it is not a difficult job to do it yourself with some basic tools and a common sense approach to the job, you do not have to be a mechanic to fix a 2.2 head gasket & it will cost in the region of £150 ota in parts plus approx. another £30 - £40 to get the head skimmed if that is necessary. Plus you will get all the help you need on here for free too!  :y


I know there's no sign of Mayo in the oil or expansion tank, these are the first things I checked. I'll check the rest this weekend. Cheers for the pointers.

If i'm only looking at £150ish then i'll do it myself. Just in the process of putting a zx9r b model back together in the diningroom (the wife's not happy, lol)

I bought it to tow my caravan and to get me the 80 mile round trip to work in Goole from Sheffield, which she does with ease. I was luck as we got an estate in at work to break that had a dog guard and full un-used tow bar.

I'm really enjoying the car, this is the only niggle and i'd love to get it sorted. (Would a 3.0L elite model engine fit?? Got one of those in as well)

Cheers for all the help lads :)

Rob

It sounds like you have the skills/facilities.  ;D

I bought everything from Vx, but I think various members (e.g. Marks DTM Calibration?) have said that other suppliers are better value/equal quality on the HG itself, headbolts and cambelt kits.  Stay with Vx for exhaust mani gasket (metal multilayer) if you take that off, and camcover gasket.

There's a (camshaft sprocket) locking wedge readily available that makes replacement of cambelt easier, for very little cash, that I would have invested in if I'd known it existed. Fiver well spent, I'd think.

P.S. Philrich's list of diagnostics is spot on.  :)
[/highlight]





 ;D Only because I learned it from YOU Abiton mate  ;D :y
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: Chimpchoker on 28 July 2010, 12:14:01
I had coolant leaks or a long while and a little trickle of water down from the rear right corner of the block and my trusty stealership said ti was a head gasket job. I left it until aug 08 it was taking 5lts of water to drive 2 miles so the AA lifted me home and it turned out to be the oil cooler casing had split. That job cost me £450  ish at the stealership to replace the oilcooler ( as it comes with its own casing...... )
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: Rob-Mitton on 30 July 2010, 19:45:11
Well, quick update.

Coming home in the car this evening, as she boiled her top. Looked down and there it was, right into the red. Got her to side of the road and got a 2l bottle of water from the shop.

Started To take the cap off (tank empty), and water came bubbling back into the tank. full 2L of water and the temp dropped. by the time i got home it was pushing 90 again. (Usually around 80). Now i have the dreeded white steam at the exhaust. Couldn't get it above 90 on the drive.

Starting to wonder if I should have kept the Range Rover :(

Rob
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: mark.adams on 31 July 2010, 07:57:20
A head gasket change on a 2.2 is not bad, my head is going back on today on my drive in the rain after reskimming and welding.
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: star_whites on 31 July 2010, 10:19:59
It ain't that difficult to do the 2.0 like they said. I've done three rebuilds on the 2.0 and the cost will vary depending on how far u want to go with parts. If u do everything and use genuine the cost mounts up fast, I should know. But if you just replace what's needed it ain't too bad. :y
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: mark.adams on 31 July 2010, 18:50:45
Mine is back together now, cost £330 for welding, skimming and complete gasket set, new cambelt and set of head bolts. Now fully reassembled and it works woohoo....
temp gauge doesn't work must have forgot to reconnect temp sender at back of block.... :P
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: Rob-Mitton on 31 July 2010, 19:18:12
After checking all the levels i have put 3 litres of water and a litre of oil in. The last time they were checked was 03/07/2010. these were brought to correct levels at that date.

I've got no mixing of the oil and water, but white smoke at the exhaust (minimal). I'm going to get a code reader (as bulb appears to be blown for EML light)

Would this do?? http://www.argos.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?storeId=10001&catalogId=1500002451&langId=-1&searchTerms=CODE+READER

I just want to check for any stored codes.

To be fair, i've been sat all day on e of bay and the trader websites looking at replacement, but I've decided I want to get this sorted. It's looking like a head job, but i think i need to check for any other problems with the code reader before i delve in as it were.

Cheers for all the help guys.  :y

Rob
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: Rob-Mitton on 01 August 2010, 18:15:36
There's a hell of a lot of pressure in the expansion bottle. Even when cold. Is this normal???

Temp stays down if the blower is left on (hot or cold) as then the rear fan is perm running.

Could this mean a blocked rad???

Also, a new little trait its started with is that the auto box doesn't seem to want to move the car at a great rate of knots. Starts off ok, then the power drops off and sports box can't be engaged. Turn off and restart and everything goes back to normal. (For a while anyway).

No messages on the message centre either. V V Confusing :(

Rob
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: Abiton on 01 August 2010, 19:13:26
Quote
There's a hell of a lot of pressure in the expansion bottle. Even when cold. Is this normal???

In a word, no.  Before ours got replaced (HG) it used to retain pressure overnight, and when up-to-temp the rad hoses were waaaay hard. After new gasket fitted, no pressure in exp tank once engine is cool, and nice squeezable hoses at op temp.  Have you looked down the plug-holes yet?

Quote
Temp stays down if the blower is left on (hot or cold) as then the rear fan is perm running.

I don't understand the interaction between rad fan and blower motor, but I've seen that there is such a link in the wiring diagrams once (complex mass of relays and schizzle in these cars), and wondered what it was all about TBH.  Just tried ours, and from cold the rad fan (ours only has the rear one) doesn't come on with the blower motor.  Ours is the basest of base models though, so may not have quite so many relays/interactions :-/

I would guess that your overheating is down to quantity of coolant lost/remaining.  As the volume of coolant goes down, temps are sure to increase.
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: Rob-Mitton on 02 August 2010, 17:29:27
Right then. Just had codes read. This is the list :(

Engine;

Code001: P0650 - Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) Control Circuit

Code002: P1650 - Control Module Output B Circuit

Code003: [14, 4, 11, 30] Please refer to relevant technical maual

Code004: P0170 - Fuel Trim Bank 1

Code005: P0304 - Cylinder 4 Misfire Detected

Code006: P1700 - Transmission Control Module (TCM) Requested MIL Illumination

Gearbox;

Code001: P0706 - Trans Range Switch Performance

Code002: P1781 - Engine Torque Signal Circuit

Code003: P1740 - Torque Reduction Signal Circuit.

Oh dear, decisions decisions. Do I do the work, or do I down it???

Definate headgasket, as for gearbox. I hate to even think. :(

Love the car, but this is starting to get silly.

Rob
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: PhilRich on 02 August 2010, 17:43:52
You need to know how many of those codes are still relevant. If you've been unplugging stuff, then codes are going to be thrown up & stored. Get the codes cleared & see which ones return, then you have a sound base to start from  :y
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: shane1000 on 02 August 2010, 20:00:39
the price i was quoted was from an independant garage and was for head skimmed, new gaskets etc., and retighten after so many miles and labour- on this info i scrapped
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: Rob-Mitton on 07 August 2010, 15:33:41
Right. A little update. All the codes were cleared after being read. She seemed to run much better (still water loss).

The system is under extreme pressure. When you take the cap off after allowing to cool, it comes gargling back up and the hiss is still loud.

I went to collect the wife from Sheffield town centre after she'd been out with friends. Plenty of water in her, she shot up on the gauge and was very presurised. No immediate sign of any water loss though. I managed to get her home.

Been out today and the gearbox limp home type mode kicked in after a while (temp still around 80). After a while though, she wouldn't even accelerate. it was like there was no fuel going through. Turned her off and back on and all was well. She sailed home with no further issues.

Lifted the bonnet when i got back and water was dripping onto the exhaust just infront of the EGR valve, engine side. I cant seem to see where this is coming from though???

Same codes are back!!!

I was gonna down her, but I hate being beaten. So fixed one way or another she will be. :y

Rob
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: Abiton on 07 August 2010, 16:27:26
Rob, I don't know how similar the stuff is on the 2.2, but I suspect the same casting exists at the back of the head as in in this pic:
(http://images.omegaowners.com/images/guides/2.2_useful_pics/Tempsenders_resize.jpg)

There's a gasket between this lump and the head, which may have failed due to the excess pressure, which may explain your leak near the EGR, assuming that the EGR is in the same spot as on the 2.0.

A decent headgasket kit should include this gasket, I know the Vx one does, but apparently other sources are better value than Vx, though I don't know what will be included.

It could be just squirting out from the hose connection that goes off the RH end of this chunk I guess.

I'd suggest you try to avoid driving this car much more before you address the HG.  Otherwise the next leaks might be pricey/awkward bits like radiator and heater matrix...
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: Rob-Mitton on 24 August 2010, 07:41:09
Thanks to everyone that helped me with this issue. I collected the car yesterday with one freshly skimmed head and a new gasket.

Time to enjoy the car :D

Thanks again guys. Very helpfull, friendly and informative forum you have here.

Rob
Title: Re: Suspect it's the head gasket, but .......
Post by: PhilRich on 24 August 2010, 12:53:10
Great news Rob! :y
I hope you have many many miles of carefree motoring to come :y