Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: CyNick on 10 April 2010, 16:09:53
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(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii235/Nick_cyp/Cambelt/IMG_2445.jpg)(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii235/Nick_cyp/Cambelt/IMG_2446.jpg)(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii235/Nick_cyp/Cambelt/IMG_2447.jpg)(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii235/Nick_cyp/Cambelt/IMG_2448.jpg)
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This follows on from
"Cambelt/tensioner failure after 600 miles?"
- Sorry I couldn't get the picture links to load.. I'll try again later..
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I took a couple of pictures as I dismantled - the case was on perfectly and I took a photo after I undid the case bolts and eased the case open slightly.. I saw the broken tensioner immediately..
Looks as if the cams have stopped instantly, but the crank has possibly/probably continued to turn? Just a guess as the tensioner pulley has remained in place..
What are the thoughts?
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Looking at the last pic the passenger bank look to be together but the drivers bank are miles out compared and different from each other. Doesn't look promising really. Maybe find a pair of heads and change them.
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Actually Nick that tensioner looks new! When was it changed? And by whom? Not pointing any fingers you understand, just wondered if there was any re-course on the supplier :y It's only about half an hour from me if you want me to pop down and have a look?
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Actually Nick that tensioner looks new! When was it changed? And by whom? Not pointing any fingers you understand, just wondered if there was any re-course on the supplier :y It's only about half an hour from me if you want me to pop down and have a look?
Yes it is.. it was actually changed 2 years ago but the car has been sleeping lazily in a garage since then.. There is only 600 miles use - maybe a little more, but not much!
The main mileage was a very gentle run to Glasgow - 1/2 April 2010. It broke on the way back..
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Looking at the last pic the passenger bank look to be together but the drivers bank are miles out compared and different from each other. Doesn't look promising really. Maybe find a pair of heads and change them.
I'll try and take a couple more pics to compare..
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Looking at the last pic the passenger bank look to be together but the drivers bank are miles out compared and different from each other. Doesn't look promising really. Maybe find a pair of heads and change them.
I'll try and take a couple more pics to compare..
Sorry, not had a chance to do this..
What are the chances of claiming from the manufacturer? Any one know - or had exerience of this?
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Bloody hell Nick!
It might be worth checking with the garage who changed the crank seal, not to point fingers, but just to see if they re-fitted the belt using a locking set, and did the pulley up to 40nm.
As per the other thread, although it's been off at a garage since, to do the crank seal, Nick and I changed this kit a couple of years ago, so it's pretty new and low mileage.
Did you buy the bits Nick - I think so from memory?
If so, do you have the reciept?
In all honesty, I very very much doubt there is any recourse..
There will be valve damage, to at least one of the heads, most likely two :'(
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I posted in the other thread - yes I did have tensioner bolt go - but it happened just minutes from leaving dealer after cam belt change. Dealer maintains it was defective bolt and VX Luton that it was over tightened.
Between them they replaced with a new engine.
Around the same time I had problems with a clutch cover on our Signum where the bolts just went missing.
VX gave us a hire car for 2 weeks because they had to get the bolts from Germany which I thought was strange for an engine as common as 1.9cdti which is in Vectras, Zafiras etc.
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actually I think it was the driveshaft bearing cover bolts that were the problem on the Signum
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I posted in the other thread - yes I did have tensioner bolt go - but it happened just minutes from leaving dealer after cam belt change. Dealer maintains it was defective bolt and VX Luton that it was over tightened.
Between them they replaced with a new engine.
Thanks for the post pscocoa, I did see it in the other thread and was still hoping something like this hadn't happened.. :( :(
I think my main problem is prooving the bolt was faulty - as above..
I have the receipt for the kit.. but I'm sure Vauxhall will point to how long ago it was bought :-/
I'm sure the garage will try to deny even having a tea break while giving my engine the VIP treatment it deserved.. ;D ;D
The only thing I'm 10000% sure of is that when the bonnet was closed after fitting the kit both James and I knew it had been fitted correctly, checked and checked again and all torques were correct!!
Could the manufacturer be held to blame? Is it even worth speaking to the garage? Would he have insurance against something like this?
What are my chances?? :'(
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Nick, when are going back to the car to take pics? I could meet you there if you want, see how far off it is for you, be able to decide then if it's one head or both :y
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The only thing I'm 10000% sure of is that when the bonnet was closed after fitting the kit both James and I knew it had been fitted correctly, checked and checked again and all torques were correct!!
Could the manufacturer be held to blame? Is it even worth speaking to the garage? Would he have insurance against something like this?
What are my chances?? :'(
Yep, I agree - I too remember everything being correct, and verified by us both ;)
Unfortunately though - it would have all been taken off by the garage that did the work -
you really need to ascertain - even if only to get some closure - if the garage used the FULL locking/setting kit, and knew how to use it (the V6 on these is more involved than many other engines).
:-[
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Sadly I think the warranty is only 12 months :( :(
May be worth an attempt at a claim but I doubt you'll get anywhere :'(
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Correct LD
Lifted from the Trade Club website.
Warranty
All GM parts are warranted a minimum of 12 months, unlimited mileage. All GM warranties are Europe-wide and cover both parts and labour. In the unlikely event that a GM parts develops a fault due to a material or manufacturing defect, simply call the service department of any Vauxhall or Opel dealer who will arrange to have the part replaced and fitted free of charge.
Certain parts enjoy a longer than twelve months warranty period as follows:
Clutches - 2 years, unlimited mileage
Exhausts - 2 years, unlimited mileage
Shock absorbers - 2 years, unlimited mileage
VXPRO remanufactured starter motors and alternators - 2 years/unlimited mileage
Batteries - 3 years, unlimited mileage
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Vx warranty on parts worthless anyway. I bought a crank sensor from Vx dealer - packed up within 1 month - code 19 and car refused to start. Removed it and fitted spare - started immediately. Took it back and Vx say that I have to refit it and get my car into their Service Dept who will then check it and fit a new one FOC if found faulty. Vx Dealer some 11 miles away and they will NOT pay costs of getting car into their Service Dept even if part faulty. Not worth it for a £40 sensor - thieving barstewards!!!
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Is the bearing in the idler still free to turn?
I'm wondering whether the bearing siezed causing the centre to rotate and tighten the retaining bolt until it snapped :-/
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Vx warranty on parts worthless anyway. I bought a crank sensor from Vx dealer - packed up within 1 month - code 19 and car refused to start. Removed it and fitted spare - started immediately. Took it back and Vx say that I have to refit it and get my car into their Service Dept who will then check it and fit a new one FOC if found faulty. Vx Dealer some 11 miles away and they will NOT pay costs of getting car into their Service Dept even if part faulty. Not worth it for a £40 sensor - thieving barstewards!!!
Thats because your local dealer are shite.....Grose's I assume?
They would not take that stance with a trader......and they should not take that stance with you.....and Vx do not look for such evidence on returns either.
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Vx warranty on parts worthless anyway. I bought a crank sensor from Vx dealer - packed up within 1 month - code 19 and car refused to start. Removed it and fitted spare - started immediately. Took it back and Vx say that I have to refit it and get my car into their Service Dept who will then check it and fit a new one FOC if found faulty. Vx Dealer some 11 miles away and they will NOT pay costs of getting car into their Service Dept even if part faulty. Not worth it for a £40 sensor - thieving barstewards!!!
Thats because your local dealer are shite.....Grose's I assume?
They would not take that stance with a trader......and they should not take that stance with you.....and Vx do not look for such evidence on returns either.
Agreed - altho good on getting bits all on TC or Trade prices.
Not Grose - Townsends @ Wellingborough.
Apparently this is a Vx initiative ????
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What a load of old.....
Clearly not interested in customer service.
All they needed to do is fill in the warranty claim form stating a code 19 had been flagegd by the enw sensor......simples.
Vx then simply charge their supplier for a new part.
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I've always found Grose's to be OK :-/, but dont use them that often...
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Nick, when are going back to the car to take pics? I could meet you there if you want, see how far off it is for you, be able to decide then if it's one head or both :y
Thanks very much Lee :y
This is the second time you have offered - I hope you didn't think me rude but I missed the first offer! :-[
I'm going to post pics now, it's so difficult to get the camera into banks 3&4!
It looks to me as if 1&2 are pretty much in sync with each other, but 3&4 look slightly out, and seem way out with 1&2??
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii235/Nick_cyp/Cambelt/IMG_2468.jpg)(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii235/Nick_cyp/Cambelt/IMG_2454.jpg)
I'm pretty sure that when the cams stopped, the crank continued to turn, so will the damage depend on where the cams stopped?
Maybe a more experienced eye could give an opinion??
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Why are those photos so big? I uploaded 640x480, just like the 1st photos?
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I'm a bit confused about cams 1 and 2 here
Why are marks "1" and "1", and then "2" and "2" in the same places on each pulley?
Should be in different places - differentiated by the ways the pulleys are fitted on the keyway...
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Can you moved to TDC, and retake?
I may be having a blonde moment, but 1 looks to be way out of sync with 2?
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I'm a bit confused about cams 1 and 2 here
Why are marks "1" and "1", and then "2" and "2" in the same places on each pulley?
Should be in different places - differentiated by the ways the pulleys are fitted on the keyway...
Ah, exactly what I was trying to say, but better explained by you?
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Can you moved to TDC, and retake?
I may be having a blonde moment, but 1 looks to be way out of sync with 2?
Agreed - see my post above, it's like they are both fitted in the same position on the cam keyways?
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Also, TB -
A broken idler wouldn't cause that to happen, in itself -
The cam pulley would have to be physically taken off and re-fitted in that keyway position (unless the keyway on the cam has broken)...
My gut feeling is top end damage!
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Also, TB -
A broken idler wouldn't cause that to happen, in itself -
The cam pulley would have to be physically taken off and re-fitted in that keyway position (unless the keyway on the cam has broken)...
My gut feeling is top end damage!
Or the belt has slipped and it just so happens that's the orientation they ended up in?
Kevin
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Also, TB -
A broken idler wouldn't cause that to happen, in itself -
The cam pulley would have to be physically taken off and re-fitted in that keyway position (unless the keyway on the cam has broken)...
My gut feeling is top end damage!
Has something else broken, and broken tensioner is a symptom, not a cause...
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Can you moved to TDC, and retake?
I may be having a blonde moment, but 1 looks to be way out of sync with 2?
I've just taken the photos as I found things.. How do I move to TDC with the tensioner bolt broken?
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Also, TB -
A broken idler wouldn't cause that to happen, in itself -
The cam pulley would have to be physically taken off and re-fitted in that keyway position (unless the keyway on the cam has broken)...
My gut feeling is top end damage!
Or the belt has slipped and it just so happens that's the orientation they ended up in?
Kevin
Yep - bit of a co-incidence they've ended up in the same place though :D
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Yep - bit of a co-incidence they've ended up in the same place though :D
Looking at the state of that tensioner it would have been a bit of a coincidence if they had stayed timed as they originally were too. ;D
Kevin
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Yep - Agreed :D
I'd love to know how the garage re-fitted the cambelt kit...
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Yep - Agreed :D
I'd love to know how the garage re-fitted the cambelt kit...
Visions of the old film, see no evil, hear no evil...
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Nick - to give us an indication - assuming the lower idler hasn't been touched since this failure - can you clarify what position the arrow on it, is in?
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we are definitely into the land of long shots here.
My job went wrong in October 2008 - VX dealer was involved with metallurgist regarding the bolt - I am not aware of outcome. When was your job done/kit purchased? May just be a coincidence on timing - will check with dealer re metallurgist but do not hold your breath.
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checked with dealer - basically in my case VX Luton sent their own engineer to agree to disagree but accepted to supply engine without admission of liabilty.
VX dealer says that others have gone to AA or RAC for opinion on cause and submitted to VX but this is obviously a gamble for you on cost of report given it was fitted so long ago.
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Nick - to give us an indication - assuming the lower idler hasn't been touched since this failure - can you clarify what position the arrow on it, is in?
The arrow is now at aprox 10/20 degrees clockwise from vertical (and the bearing is free running)
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Nick - to give us an indication - assuming the lower idler hasn't been touched since this failure - can you clarify what position the arrow on it, is in?
The arrow is now at aprox 10/20 degrees clockwise from vertical (and the bearing is free running)
Hmmm, that doesn't sound like its been fitted properly :-/
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Nick - to give us an indication - assuming the lower idler hasn't been touched since this failure - can you clarify what position the arrow on it, is in?
The arrow is now at aprox 10/20 degrees clockwise from vertical (and the bearing is free running)
Hmmm, that doesn't sound like its been fitted properly :-/
I read it that it's been fitted in around the 1pm position, which wouldn't be far off the mark?
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Nick - to give us an indication - assuming the lower idler hasn't been touched since this failure - can you clarify what position the arrow on it, is in?
The arrow is now at aprox 10/20 degrees clockwise from vertical (and the bearing is free running)
Hmmm, that doesn't sound like its been fitted properly :-/
I read it that it's been fitted in around the 1pm position, which wouldn't be far off the mark?
how did i read anticlockwise into that. 1pm would sound nearer, but wonder if not locking kit used?
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Nick - to give us an indication - assuming the lower idler hasn't been touched since this failure - can you clarify what position the arrow on it, is in?
The arrow is now at aprox 10/20 degrees clockwise from vertical (and the bearing is free running)
Hmmm, that doesn't sound like its been fitted properly :-/
I read it that it's been fitted in around the 1pm position, which wouldn't be far off the mark?
how did i read anticlockwise into that. 1pm would sound nearer, but wonder if not locking kit used?
Quite likely not used. Not many outfits have them - and the ones that do, probably not 100% competent on how to use them :'(
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There a mile out....cam 1 and 2 are sat in the same positions so are a good 120 deg out!
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There a mile out....cam 1 and 2 are sat in the same positions so are a good 120 deg out!
If you look at the water pump, there's shredded 'something' on there.. It seems (but I've not moved the belt yet) that the crank might have pulled the teeth off the inside of the belt?.. :-/
What should I do next? ?
Do I assume the worst and dismantle further to investigate?
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What should I do next? ?
Do I assume the worst and dismantle further to investigate?
I think there's almost zero chance that the engine has escaped valve damage, TBH. Could fit a new belt kit, time it up and see if there's any compression but I think it'd be futile. :'(
Kevin
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There a mile out....cam 1 and 2 are sat in the same positions so are a good 120 deg out!
If you look at the water pump, there's shredded 'something' on there.. It seems (but I've not moved the belt yet) that the crank might have pulled the teeth off the inside of the belt?.. :-/
What should I do next? ?
Do I assume the worst and dismantle further to investigate?
Nick, check your PM's and give me a call. I'll come take a look. You can report back then.
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There a mile out....cam 1 and 2 are sat in the same positions so are a good 120 deg out!
If you look at the water pump, there's shredded 'something' on there.. It seems (but I've not moved the belt yet) that the crank might have pulled the teeth off the inside of the belt?.. :-/
What should I do next? ?
Do I assume the worst and dismantle further to investigate?
Nick, check your PM's and give me a call. I'll come take a look. You can report back then.
Thanks Lee.. I'll give you a call tomorrow afternoon if that's ok.. :y
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There a mile out....cam 1 and 2 are sat in the same positions so are a good 120 deg out!
If you look at the water pump, there's shredded 'something' on there.. It seems (but I've not moved the belt yet) that the crank might have pulled the teeth off the inside of the belt?.. :-/
What should I do next? ?
Do I assume the worst and dismantle further to investigate?
Nick, check your PM's and give me a call. I'll come take a look. You can report back then.
Thanks Lee.. I'll give you a call tomorrow afternoon if that's ok.. :y
After a long delay - (my fault only)
A BIG THANK YOU to Welung.. and to other OOF members who are rallying around to help :y
The car is now in his capable hands - waiting to see just how much damage has been done!
It would be a shame to have to break this car - but I'm afraid it's now in the lap of the Gods :-/