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Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Sir Tigger KC on 14 February 2011, 18:02:43

Title: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 14 February 2011, 18:02:43
Hi All,

My cars been missing and running rough for abit now, but havn't needed it for a while.

I've put new plugs in, but it hasn't cured it. It's worse at low revs, about 2000rpm say and when I boot it, it seems OK, but when the revs come down its rough again!

There was a little bit of oil in the back two plug wells on the offside, so I guess the cam cover is leaking, and the nearside back plug looked as though it had been wet at some stage, but was dry when I pulled it out. The scuttle's not the best and the foam is wet.

I changed the thermostat a few months ago and I don't think its been the same since... :-[

Any advice would be appreciated, many thanks in advance :y
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Darth Loo-knee on 14 February 2011, 18:12:58
Missfires are usually HT problems, Plugs, Leads or Dispack.

If you have oil in your plug wells this wont help, eventually the hot then cold oil will damage your leads then eventually can damage your dispack.... this can them become an expensive problem.
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: TheBoy on 14 February 2011, 18:23:30
Paperclip it, if nothing, misfire is likely HT related as Pinky says...
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 14 February 2011, 18:48:59
If I'm going to change the leads is it worth biting the bullet and changing the Dispack while I'm at it? Seeing as the scuttle leaks?

Looks like a nightmare job to me!  :-/

I'll paperclip it tomorrow, but I did it recently and nothing showed up.
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Darth Loo-knee on 14 February 2011, 18:52:06
Quote
If I'm going to change the leads is it worth biting the bullet and changing the Dispack while I'm at it? Seeing as the scuttle leaks?

Looks like a nightmare job to me!  :-/

I'll paperclip it tomorrow, but I did it recently and nothing showed up.

Personally I would check which is the problem..  :y

But if you have oil in the plug wells you need to sort that 1st as last  :y
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 14 February 2011, 19:02:29
I did the camcover gaskets last year (about 10000 miles!) and the breathers were clear. Obviously didn't do a very good job...  :-[  :'( :-[

This is probably a stupid question but how do I know whether its the leads or dispack?
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Darth Loo-knee on 14 February 2011, 19:09:29
Quote
I did the camcover gaskets last year (about 10000 miles!) and the breathers were clear. Obviously didn't do a very good job...  :-[  :'( :-[

This is probably a stupid question but how do I know whether its the leads or dispack?


I would use a tester to check which cylinder was the problem, then use one of the other leads that I know is working fine on the problem cylinder. If the problem still there you have ruled out leads and plugs so therefore the dispack would need replacing. The tester I have also checks the voltage at the plug.

if you dont have a tester the old fashioned way of removing a lead then see if the car runs the same or worse, if you pull off the problem lead the car won't run any different, but if you pull off a none problem lead the car will run worse as it will be firing on 4.
Hope that makes sense :y
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 14 February 2011, 20:05:08
So if I pull out all the leads one by one and there's no difference, then it'll be the Dispack that's goosed?  :-?
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Malcolm_D on 14 February 2011, 22:45:33
Quote
Quote
I did the camcover gaskets last year (about 10000 miles!) and the breathers were clear. Obviously didn't do a very good job...  :-[  :'( :-[

This is probably a stupid question but how do I know whether its the leads or dispack?


I would use a tester to check which cylinder was the problem, then use one of the other leads that I know is working fine on the problem cylinder. If the problem still there you have ruled out leads and plugs so therefore the dispack would need replacing. The tester I have also checks the voltage at the plug.

if you dont have a tester the old fashioned way of removing a lead then see if the car runs the same or worse, if you pull off the problem lead the car won't run any different, but if you pull off a none problem lead the car will run worse as it will be firing on 4.
Hope that makes sense :y

Sorry if this is a hijack but I have a similar issue. What type of tester do you have Daz? Just wondering if it is worth while getting one?  ;)

Tigger - once you have sorted the cam cover seals and whatever you do with the coil pack HT leads and plugs make sure you seal the scuttle well. I thought I have sealed mine well and it then started leaking through the underneath of the joint between the two scuttle halves, guess what - another wet coil pack!  >:(
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 14 February 2011, 23:04:48
It's got loads of silicon in it now and its lashing down....

I guess the ideal time to do the Dispack will be when I sort the cam cover gaskets as the inlet manifold will be out, which should make it easier? :-/

Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: cleggy on 14 February 2011, 23:06:04
Why mess about? Just get Kidsgrove's Dark Loon to fully sort the problems out. :y
Well worth the effort of getitng to him  ( yeah it's a long way), but worth the expense, and you might get an OATCAKE ;D, a car that's fault free, and a pleasure to drive with confidence. :y
I speak from expeience, and tho' it pains me to say so 'the welcome is worth the visit' :D 
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 15 February 2011, 00:14:21
Very tempting!!!  ;D But at 193 miles or so each way :o
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 15 February 2011, 12:54:55
Just pulled the leads on the drivers side (easy side!) and there's no spark at the rear spark plug......

I've also paperclipped it and got 144 - Immobiliser No Signal... Not sure that's relevant   ::) Going to check the nearside leads after lunch....
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 15 February 2011, 15:31:24
Checked all the leads now with an old spark plug, and all have a spark apart from the offside rear, which was the one with oil in the plug well....

To be honest on both rear leads the rubber on the 'plugholder' has split  :(  So I'm thinking a set of leads and do the camcover gaskets (again! :'() should hopefully sort it?
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Darth Loo-knee on 15 February 2011, 19:45:08
Quote
Checked all the leads now with an old spark plug, and all have a spark apart from the offside rear, which was the one with oil in the plug well....

To be honest on both rear leads the rubber on the 'plugholder' has split  :(  So I'm thinking a set of leads and do the camcover gaskets (again! :'() should hopefully sort it?


So the rear drivers side plug aint sparking is that right? That is Cylinder 5.
Try another lead that the plug is sparking on, in Cylinder 5 and see if the plug sparks then?
If it does change the lead :y
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 16 February 2011, 18:29:58
Thanks for the advice.  I didn't get a chance to check it today, but I'll have a look tomorrow and will keep you posted!  :y :y :y
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 17 February 2011, 15:34:45
I've just swapped the rear and middle leads on the offside bank at the dispack. The middle lead that I connected to the rear lead connection has no spark and when I tried the rear lead in the middle connection it sparks, although it arcs all over the show because the rubber insulation has split!  :o

So I'm thinking that the dispack is goosed? so that needs replacing and I also need a set of leads...

Is it worth shelling out for a new Bosch dispack or given the age and milage (200k) would a pattern part do? Maybe that's heresy to ask that here! ;D Looks like there's two different connecters an oval and rectangular......

Also, leads! Where's best to get them? How much etc? I've seen lots on ebay at different prices!

Many Thanks in advance for any advice!!  :y :y :y
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: SteveS on 17 February 2011, 21:43:05
This thread just goes to show what a fantastic forum this is for getting expert advice. When I started reading this thread I was going to post my own experiences as the symptoms are identical to those I have had on my 1999 2.5 V6, but the advice has led you to identify the probable cause - well done to the experts.

If you've got as far as being able to change the HT leads at the DIS pack you're probably 90% of the way to getting the DIS pack out and probably 75% of the way to getting the cam covers off.

It looks like you will save yourself quite a bit of time doing all 3 together, I did mine in 3 separate stages each about a year apart.

The decision to use VX or pattern parts will depend on how much the saving is and how much you want to do the job again in the near future. My experience is definitely use VX seals for the cam cover. Did you use VX before? If not it may be a lesson you've already learnt and if you did its probably worth investigating why they leaked when you take it apart. Potential cost saving by using non VX is relatively small, maybe £30.

For the DIS pack and HT leads I went for non VX. I was astonished by the price of the VX parts from the local main dealer. The saving on the DIS pack was about £140 (£40 compared with £180) and I think was about £70 saving on the HT leads.  The savings here were more and the consequences of the parts failing less serious, so I took the risk. So far they have been OK, but I may well regret it in the future if they fail. I guess you have to do you own assessment.
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 18 February 2011, 00:13:28
Thanks for the comment Steve.

I changed the cam cover gaskets (Vx) about a year ago, but I suspect that I over tightened them, as I didn't have a torque wrench so guessed it.... :-[

I'll definatly do all the jobs in one go, as I reckon the Dispack will be easier to get at with the plenum and intake manifold out. Plus there's LPG stuff to content with as well.. ::)

Think I'm veering towards a pattern Dispack at about £40?  :-? But I'm confused by leads, seems there are allsorts, red, blue, black, 8mm, 10mm..... and priced between £20 and £160  :o

As always Many Thanks for any advice.. :y :y :y
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Ploppy on 18 February 2011, 18:20:30
Yes some great advice on this forum ,

I travel to Darths ( Daz) which is 200miles, 4 hours ,

It is worth every mile, hour and pound.

he really is a top guy and will sort your car out .

My car is an ex ARV, some members of the old firearms team have driven it since leaving service and work done by Daz.

We all agree it has never progressed ( shifted ) so fast !!

Top job Daz..  Suffolk Constabulary may be head hunting you !!

Ploppy  :y :y :y :y :y
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Andy B on 18 February 2011, 18:23:16
every time I see this thread re-appear I keep thinking ........
 have these plugs not been found yet? ......  ::) ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 18 February 2011, 19:23:40
Haaa! Very droll Andy!  ;D

If I get some advice on Dispacks and HT leads, then I'll retire the thread.... Promise! :-X ::) 
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Andy B on 18 February 2011, 19:29:19
Quote
Haaa! Very droll Andy!  ;D

If I get some advice on Dispacks and HT leads, then I'll retire the thread.... Promise! :-X ::) 

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I replaced the DIS on my 3.0 very soon after buying the car about 7 yrs ago. Vauxhall quoted silly money to fit a new DIS & leads, when I questioned the leads their reason was 'just in case'. I'm still on the same leads.  :y :y
Unfortunately which of the different DIS is a guess till get the old one out. My local dealer priced matched the internet to get a sale ....... which was cheaper still cos there was no postage.  :y
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 18 February 2011, 20:18:20
So the Dispack in my X25XE could have either a rectangular or oval connector??  :-/

Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Andy B on 18 February 2011, 20:26:58
Quote
So the Dispack in my X25XE could have either a rectangular or oval connector??  :-/


I can't remember the specifics but there are three DIS packs fitted, but you'll likely have one of just two.  :-/ :-/
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 18 February 2011, 20:47:56
Hmmm... Problem is that I need to keep the car mobile, ie I can't pull out the old Dispack and then wait a few days for the new one to arrive.....  :(
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Malcolm_D on 18 February 2011, 22:43:14
I have recently replaced HT leads and coil pack on my 98 2.5 to cure a misfire, I used pattern parts from my local motor factors, the leads are ok but the coil pack is rubbish - the body of the connector snapped off - and no I hadn't abused it! I have now fitted a second hand Bosch one from a breakers yard, I will be returning the other.
To be honest I have had so much trouble with the pack, leads and plugs that I have made a bracket and moved the coil pack so that I can get to it. Once I am happy that I have cured the problem I will return it to it's normal place
If your coil pack is mounted horizontally you may be able to see if it is the oval connection using a torch and mirror - remove the breather hoses from the back of the plenum, push them over to the left then squeeze your hand in under the scuttle with the mirror and shine the light in the mirror so that it reflects down onto the top of the pack - it's tight but possible.  ;)
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Andy B on 18 February 2011, 22:51:17
Quote
....
To be honest I have had so much trouble with the pack, leads and plugs that I have made a bracket and moved the coil pack so that I can get to it.  .....

I replaced my DIS about 7 yrs ago with a new one....... that was the last time I saw it.  ;) ;) :y :y
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Malcolm_D on 18 February 2011, 22:55:59
Quote
Quote
....
To be honest I have had so much trouble with the pack, leads and plugs that I have made a bracket and moved the coil pack so that I can get to it.  .....

I replaced my DIS about 7 yrs ago with a new one....... that was the last time I saw it.  ;) ;) :y :y

I replaced mine last year with one off flea bay, by Xmas it was dead  :-[
I must learn not to be so tight - you get what you pay for? To be fair the cost of a new Bosch pack is about twice what the car is worth, but I am attached to the old girl. :y
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Darth Loo-knee on 18 February 2011, 22:58:18
If your car is a 2000 you will have the oval connection on your dispack.  :y
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Andy B on 18 February 2011, 23:01:57
Quote
Quote
Quote
....
To be honest I have had so much trouble with the pack, leads and plugs that I have made a bracket and moved the coil pack so that I can get to it.  .....

I replaced my DIS about 7 yrs ago with a new one....... that was the last time I saw it.  ;) ;) :y :y

I replaced mine last year with one off flea bay, by Xmas it was dead  :-[
I must learn not to be so tight - you get what you pay for? To be fair the cost of a new Bosch pack is about twice what the car is worth, but I am attached to the old girl. :y

At the time I'd had the 'bloody Omega' about a fortnight and it'd broken down on me a few times already. IIRC a new DIS was around £150, not what I wanted to spend on a 'new' car but when I removed the old DIS & saw the iron cores making a bid for freedom I knew it had needed one. The cause for the breakdowns was code 19  :y :y :y
I very nearly kept the Senator that had shared a driveway with its replacement ........ if only! :-/ :-/ :-/
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Malcolm_D on 18 February 2011, 23:08:13
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
....
To be honest I have had so much trouble with the pack, leads and plugs that I have made a bracket and moved the coil pack so that I can get to it.  .....

I replaced my DIS about 7 yrs ago with a new one....... that was the last time I saw it.  ;) ;) :y :y

I replaced mine last year with one off flea bay, by Xmas it was dead  :-[
I must learn not to be so tight - you get what you pay for? To be fair the cost of a new Bosch pack is about twice what the car is worth, but I am attached to the old girl. :y

At the time I'd had the 'bloody Omega' about a fortnight and it'd broken down on me a few times already. IIRC a new DIS was around £150, not what I wanted to spend on a 'new' car but when I removed the old DIS & saw the iron cores making a bid for freedom I knew it had needed one. The cause for the breakdowns was code 19  :y :y :y
I very nearly kept the Senator that had shared a driveway with its replacement ........ if only! :-/ :-/ :-/

Totally off the thread (sorry Tigger) but I know what you mean, very soon after buying the old girl I had to be transported from Edinburgh to York due to the HT leads tracking all over the place - don't you just love miggies? ::)
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Andy B on 18 February 2011, 23:18:28
Quote
....- don't you just love miggies Omegas? ::)

SWMBO didn't when it broke down in 4 lanes of traffic one Sat morning.
here ......http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Bury&aq=0&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=13.52256,43.286133&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Bury,+Greater+Manchester,+United+Kingdom&ll=53.59481,-2.305048&spn=0.006622,0.021136&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.594808,-2.305124&panoid=VHKL--4d40GqYje3F8CYrg&cbp=12,101.62,,0,11.94

Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Vamps on 19 February 2011, 00:05:25
Quote
Quote
....- don't you just love miggies Omegas? ::)

SWMBO didn't when it broke down in 4 lanes of traffic one Sat morning.
here ......http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Bury&aq=0&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=13.52256,43.286133&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Bury,+Greater+Manchester,+United+Kingdom&ll=53.59481,-2.305048&spn=0.006622,0.021136&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.594808,-2.305124&panoid=VHKL--4d40GqYje3F8CYrg&cbp=12,101.62,,0,11.94


Blimey Andy, the most we get around here is 2 lanes... ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Andy B on 19 February 2011, 00:34:37
Quote
....
Blimey Andy, the most we get around here is 2 lanes... ::) ::) ::)

1 each direction?  ::) ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: New plugs still missing!
Post by: Vamps on 19 February 2011, 00:57:39
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Quote
....
Blimey Andy, the most we get around here is 2 lanes... ::) ::) ::)

1 each direction?  ::) ;D ;D ;D

Mostly.... ;D ;D ;D