Omega Owners Forum

Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: chrispin on 06 March 2011, 18:46:43

Title: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: chrispin on 06 March 2011, 18:46:43
Hi
Car Omega 2.5 V6 petrol Auto 121,000

I was traveling home yesterday evening and just after passing junction 7 on the M25 doing 70 with cruise control on the engine management light came on the the car started to slow i pressed the accelorator and not alot it juddered like it was miss firing. The car continued to slow the car had been runing perfectly giving me 30+ mpg all the way from Birmingham which was the return journey i had done in the morning

I pulled over to the hard shoulder and the car stalled I swithched off popped the bonnet no smells or obvious problems looked under the car no fluid or leaks dripping
I got back in the car and turned the key to start the engine and the Starter motor just span freely did not turn the engine over ???

Rang the AA they came out and said Oh that does not sound very healthy !! he popped the bolt off the cam cover which showed the top of the belt asked me to turn the key and said the belt did move suggested that the cam belt had snapped ???

I heard no noise bang or rattle the EML came on and car stopped ???

I have the codes but cant find the list 
12
135
94
73
31
12

Any help much appreciated inc any info that relates to costs of repair links to parts and mechanics close to me in Tunbidge wells Kent

Thanks

Chris
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: dad1uk on 06 March 2011, 18:55:20
Here's the codes:
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1160152416/0

Sorry I'm not clever enough to help with advice, but I'm sure someone will be along soon....
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: Lazydocker on 06 March 2011, 18:57:36
Quote
Hi
Car Omega 2.5 V6 petrol Auto 121,000

I was traveling home yesterday evening and just after passing junction 7 on the M25 doing 70 with cruise control on the engine management light came on the the car started to slow i pressed the accelorator and not alot it juddered like it was miss firing. The car continued to slow the car had been runing perfectly giving me 30+ mpg all the way from Birmingham which was the return journey i had done in the morning

I pulled over to the hard shoulder and the car stalled I swithched off popped the bonnet no smells or obvious problems looked under the car no fluid or leaks dripping
I got back in the car and turned the key to start the engine and the Starter motor just span freely did not turn the engine over ???

Rang the AA they came out and said Oh that does not sound very healthy !! he popped the bolt off the cam cover which showed the top of the belt asked me to turn the key and said the belt did move suggested that the cam belt had snapped ???

I heard no noise bang or rattle the EML came on and car stopped ???

I have the codes but cant find the list 
12
135
94
73
31
12

Any help much appreciated inc any info that relates to costs of repair links to parts and mechanics close to me in Tunbidge wells Kent

Thanks

Chris

If the belt moved then it's not broken ;) ;)
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: Varche on 06 March 2011, 19:01:27
Hi

You don't say what year your car is but I think the codes are for a Motronic 2.8.2 from memory. I am fairly sure that the codes are in the maintenance guides on the forum under paperclippedal trick.http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1160152416/0

Wild guess crank sensor.

I don't know what the problem is with your starter motor but if it is just spinning and not engaging with the engine then the cambelt won't be turning either.
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: chrispin on 06 March 2011, 19:17:31
Quote
Quote
Hi
Car Omega 2.5 V6 petrol Auto 121,000

I was traveling home yesterday evening and just after passing junction 7 on the M25 doing 70 with cruise control on the engine management light came on the the car started to slow i pressed the accelorator and not alot it juddered like it was miss firing. The car continued to slow the car had been runing perfectly giving me 30+ mpg all the way from Birmingham which was the return journey i had done in the morning

I pulled over to the hard shoulder and the car stalled I swithched off popped the bonnet no smells or obvious problems looked under the car no fluid or leaks dripping
I got back in the car and turned the key to start the engine and the Starter motor just span freely did not turn the engine over ???

Rang the AA they came out and said Oh that does not sound very healthy !! he popped the bolt off the cam cover which showed the top of the belt asked me to turn the key and said the belt did move suggested that the cam belt had snapped ???

I heard no noise bang or rattle the EML came on and car stopped ???

I have the codes but cant find the list 
12
135
94
73
31
12

Any help much appreciated inc any info that relates to costs of repair links to parts and mechanics close to me in Tunbidge wells Kent

Thanks

Chris

If the belt moved then it's not broken ;) ;)
He said it only twitched ? in a seconds worth of spinning ? the starter but i have not looked for myself

Thanks

Varche
The car is a V reg 1999 mini facelift
Thanks for the codes
12 Start
135 Telltale (Checklight) Voltage Low
94 Hall Sensor Voltage High
73 Mass Air Flow Sensor Voltage Low ( this was there already when i did the paperclip test a month ago )
31 No Engine RPM Signal ( this is normal )
12 Finish
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: Lazydocker on 06 March 2011, 20:32:38
If it twitched then you need to get the cover right off before condemning the belt, although it does sound possible :(

Of course, it could also have twitched because the started isn't engaging properly and just caught enough to "twitch" the crank shaft :y

Cover off before condemning it unless you can see the crankshaft pulley spinning and the belt not ;)

I'm sure the AA Man could but it wouldn't be the first time the AA have mis-diagnosed something ;)
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: Bent valve on 06 March 2011, 22:42:19
I wouldnt have thought it was possible to just remove a bolt to expose the belt without riving and distorting the cover considerably :o
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: Lazydocker on 06 March 2011, 22:44:49
Quote
I wouldnt have thought it was possible to just remove a bolt to expose the belt without riving and distorting the cover considerably :o

Sure it would be... They're more flexible than you think and all you need is a tiny gap to look through with a torch... I used to do it all the time when on the road to confirm my worst suspicions ;)
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: chrispin on 06 March 2011, 22:46:27
He was not an AA mechanic but a stand in from a company called kavenagh because of the time 3am app AA mechanics dont work between 3 and 6 am so the motorway recovery man said

He undid the small bolt on the front made a small gap in the top of the driverside V using a tourch to look through the cover to see the top of the belt

Why would the engine just die like that if it was the starter motor ? and if not the Cam what cud it be ??? I had driven 140 miles already

What happens if the Cam belt snaps normally ??? as i said no rattling banging or odd noises just silence ! and when i pressed the accelorator peddle it kept going but no acceloration and had a vague sound of a missfire effect and it continued to slow 

I was driving and then the EML came on the car lost power and came to a stop the car was in D and continued to move very slowly along the hard shoulder when the engine cut out the car was still moving in D ??

Oh and i checked the service logs the Cam was done at 100.000 and its now on 121.000 the car had only done 2000 miles in the year before i got it as the owner was working abroad New breaks and service air fuel and oil new battery anti role bar links and a small weld passed the MOT
Thanks
Chris
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: Lazydocker on 06 March 2011, 22:50:21
Like I said Chris, it does sound like the most likely outcome of the further investigation :'( :'( :'(

When was the Cam Belt Kit last changed?

All we're saying is that you need to pull the cover off before accepting that you've got a load of bent valves :'( :'(

It could, after all, be a simple sensor failed and the starter isn't engaging ::)

Although, I fear, unlikely :'(
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: Entwood on 06 March 2011, 22:50:57
IMHO there is insufficient info for any even "educated" guesswork ..

If the cambelt had failed at 70 mph ... I'm certain you would have heard the god forsaken racket as the pistons chewed the valves .. you don't mention any noise at all ...

The cambelt has nothing to do with the starter motor, if the starter was turning the engine with no cambelt .. you would still hear the pistons talking to the valves ..

It is more likely, as you heard no noise .. to be a failure that has caused either a loss of spark or a loss of fuel.

IMHO the starter motor sounds like a secondary fault .... unless the flywheel has become detached !!

First thing is to properly remove bits to examine the cam belt. Then check why the starter is not turning the engine.

Once those are sorted proper diagnostics can begin ...:)
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: chrispin on 06 March 2011, 23:02:21
I was driving and then the EML came on the car lost power and came to a stop the car was in D and continued to move very slowly along the hard shoulder when the engine cut out the car was still moving in D ??

Oh and i checked the service logs the Cam was done at 100.000 and its now on 121.000 the car had only done 2000 miles in the year before i got it as the owner was working abroad New breaks and service air fuel and oil new battery anti role bar links and a small weld passed the MOT

The stater just spins making  slight tinking noise as it does but certainly does not turn the crank and makes no rattling noises like you suggest from kissing valves

Detached flywheel never heard of that one ??? but sounds expensive !!!

Thanks
Chris
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: Entwood on 06 March 2011, 23:07:12
Quote
I was driving and then the EML came on the car lost power and came to a stop the car was in D and continued to move very slowly along the hard shoulder when the engine cut out the car was still moving in D ??

Oh and i checked the service logs the Cam was done at 100.000 and its now on 121.000 the car had only done 2000 miles in the year before i got it as the owner was working abroad New breaks and service air fuel and oil new battery anti role bar links and a small weld passed the MOT

The stater just spins making  slight tinking noise as it does but certainly does not turn the crank and makes no rattling noises like you suggest from kissing valves

Detached flywheel never heard of that one ??? but sounds expensive !!!

Thanks
Chris

That was a tad "tongue in cheek" ... as its the only link I can think of between the starter not turning the engine .. and the engine not turning the wheels !!!
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: Lazydocker on 06 March 2011, 23:09:27
Quote
I was driving and then the EML came on the car lost power and came to a stop the car was in D and continued to move very slowly along the hard shoulder when the engine cut out the car was still moving in D ??

Oh and i checked the service logs the Cam was done at 100.000 and its now on 121.000 the car had only done 2000 miles in the year before i got it as the owner was working abroad New breaks and service air fuel and oil new battery anti role bar links and a small weld passed the MOT

The stater just spins making  slight tinking noise as it does but certainly does not turn the crank and makes no rattling noises like you suggest from kissing valves

Detached flywheel never heard of that one ??? but sounds expensive !!!

Thanks
Chris

You say it doesn't turn the crank... Is this known because you've observed the crankshaft pulley staying still whilst the starter is engaged? If so then that's a positive sign as it means the belt is most likely fine ;)

If you're just judging it by sound, do as I've suggested... Get someone to crank it while you observe the Crankshaft Pulley :y
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: Chris_H on 06 March 2011, 23:12:22
When you say it doesn't turn the crank have you looked?  Engines spin quite fast and easy with no compression.
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: Proz on 06 March 2011, 23:18:13
Quote
IMHO there is insufficient info for any even "educated" guesswork ..

If the cambelt had failed at 70 mph ... I'm certain you would have heard the god forsaken racket as the pistons chewed the valves .. you don't mention any noise at all ...

The cambelt has nothing to do with the starter motor, if the starter was turning the engine with no cambelt .. you would still hear the pistons talking to the valves ..

It is more likely, as you heard no noise .. to be a failure that has caused either a loss of spark or a loss of fuel.

IMHO the starter motor sounds like a secondary fault .... unless the flywheel has become detached !!

First thing is to properly remove bits to examine the cam belt. Then check why the starter is not turning the engine.

Once those are sorted proper diagnostics can begin ...:)

I agree about the guess work , certainly need covers removing at least , however  , I had a cam belt failure and i assure you i heard no noise at all ... this was in a 2 ltr though .
I was quite happily driving along at 60 ish then all of a sudden the dahboard all lit up and car died .
There was no thumps or bangs at all .
Greenflag turned up and turned starter and it was very fast turning obviously because it was only the bottom half turning but even then there was no noises ...took cover off and belt was snapped ,
What im getting at is there doesnt have to be all bangs and thuds as there was nothing at all with mine which suprised me as i've never had a belt fail and i did assume there would be lots of noise .
Just the silence of a dead engine  :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: Entwood on 06 March 2011, 23:32:08
Quote
Quote
IMHO there is insufficient info for any even "educated" guesswork ..

If the cambelt had failed at 70 mph ... I'm certain you would have heard the god forsaken racket as the pistons chewed the valves .. you don't mention any noise at all ...

The cambelt has nothing to do with the starter motor, if the starter was turning the engine with no cambelt .. you would still hear the pistons talking to the valves ..

It is more likely, as you heard no noise .. to be a failure that has caused either a loss of spark or a loss of fuel.

IMHO the starter motor sounds like a secondary fault .... unless the flywheel has become detached !!

First thing is to properly remove bits to examine the cam belt. Then check why the starter is not turning the engine.

Once those are sorted proper diagnostics can begin ...:)

I agree about the guess work , certainly need covers removing at least , however  , I had a cam belt failure and i assure you i heard no noise at all ... this was in a 2 ltr though .
I was quite happily driving along at 60 ish then all of a sudden the dahboard all lit up and car died .
There was no thumps or bangs at all .
Greenflag turned up and turned starter and it was very fast turning obviously because it was only the bottom half turning but even then there was no noises ...took cover off and belt was snapped ,
What im getting at is there doesnt have to be all bangs and thuds as there was nothing at all with mine which suprised me as i've never had a belt fail and i did assume there would be lots of noise .
Just the silence of a dead engine  :'( :'( :'(

OK perhaps my assumptions are wrong ... :( .. in all the years of mishaps I've had (admittedly not with an Omega) something as major as the pistons having a conversation with the valves made so much racket it was obvious ...

If you are right .... then it is possibly a cam belt and serious valve damge .. but done quietly !!

:(
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: Proz on 06 March 2011, 23:37:25
Quote
Quote
Quote
IMHO there is insufficient info for any even "educated" guesswork ..

If the cambelt had failed at 70 mph ... I'm certain you would have heard the god forsaken racket as the pistons chewed the valves .. you don't mention any noise at all ...

The cambelt has nothing to do with the starter motor, if the starter was turning the engine with no cambelt .. you would still hear the pistons talking to the valves ..

It is more likely, as you heard no noise .. to be a failure that has caused either a loss of spark or a loss of fuel.

IMHO the starter motor sounds like a secondary fault .... unless the flywheel has become detached !!

First thing is to properly remove bits to examine the cam belt. Then check why the starter is not turning the engine.

Once those are sorted proper diagnostics can begin ...:)

I agree about the guess work , certainly need covers removing at least , however  , I had a cam belt failure and i assure you i heard no noise at all ... this was in a 2 ltr though .
I was quite happily driving along at 60 ish then all of a sudden the dahboard all lit up and car died .
There was no thumps or bangs at all .
Greenflag turned up and turned starter and it was very fast turning obviously because it was only the bottom half turning but even then there was no noises ...took cover off and belt was snapped ,
What im getting at is there doesnt have to be all bangs and thuds as there was nothing at all with mine which suprised me as i've never had a belt fail and i did assume there would be lots of noise .
Just the silence of a dead engine  :'( :'( :'(

OK perhaps my assumptions are wrong ... :( .. in all the years of mishaps I've had (admittedly not with an Omega) something as major as the pistons having a conversation with the valves made so much racket it was obvious ...

If you are right .... then it is possibly a cam belt and serious valve damge .. but done quietly !!

:(
I was very very suprised there was no noise ... im not saying thats normal mind you but thats how it was with my 2ltr ( yes the one with a third of the engine missing  ;D ;D ) . This was just a month or two before i found this site if i remember correctly .
I had assumed there would be all kinds of noises when valves and pistons met .... i was really suprised to see the belt broken once cover was removed but knew it was game over straight away at that point  :'( :'( .
I then had an argument with the garage that fitted it only 14 months and 4000 miles earlier :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: youth on 07 March 2011, 00:09:39
my first two points to check would be belt and starter itself and find out if thats engaging and i know from replacing my enine found out that the crank sensor was faulty and the car wouldnt engage starter or create a spark hope this helps
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: dbug on 07 March 2011, 01:40:58
Quote
my first two points to check would be belt and starter itself and find out if thats engaging and i know from replacing my enine found out that the crank sensor was faulty and the car wouldnt engage starter or create a spark hope this helps

Faulty crank sensor won't stop engine turning over  ;) only stops it starting.

Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: Chris_H on 07 March 2011, 08:02:58
Quote
Quote
Quote
IMHO there is insufficient info for any even "educated" guesswork ..

If the cambelt had failed at 70 mph ... I'm certain you would have heard the god forsaken racket as the pistons chewed the valves .. you don't mention any noise at all ...

The cambelt has nothing to do with the starter motor, if the starter was turning the engine with no cambelt .. you would still hear the pistons talking to the valves ..

It is more likely, as you heard no noise .. to be a failure that has caused either a loss of spark or a loss of fuel.

IMHO the starter motor sounds like a secondary fault .... unless the flywheel has become detached !!

First thing is to properly remove bits to examine the cam belt. Then check why the starter is not turning the engine.

Once those are sorted proper diagnostics can begin ...:)

I agree about the guess work , certainly need covers removing at least , however  , I had a cam belt failure and i assure you i heard no noise at all ... this was in a 2 ltr though .
I was quite happily driving along at 60 ish then all of a sudden the dahboard all lit up and car died .
There was no thumps or bangs at all .
Greenflag turned up and turned starter and it was very fast turning obviously because it was only the bottom half turning but even then there was no noises ...took cover off and belt was snapped ,
What im getting at is there doesnt have to be all bangs and thuds as there was nothing at all with mine which suprised me as i've never had a belt fail and i did assume there would be lots of noise .
Just the silence of a dead engine  :'( :'( :'(

OK perhaps my assumptions are wrong ... :( .. in all the years of mishaps I've had (admittedly not with an Omega) something as major as the pistons having a conversation with the valves made so much racket it was obvious ...

If you are right .... then it is possibly a cam belt and serious valve damge .. but done quietly !!

:(
I don't know if they make the valve necks soft deliberately to prevent them breaking off, but I've repaired an engine where two valve heads broke off and one smashed a piston but the driver was not aware of any untoward noises, just a loss of power.  And that was in a car that had a lot less sound-proofing than an Omega!
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: MICHELINMAN on 07 March 2011, 09:06:05
There does not have to be a lot of noise when a timing belt snaps!
There was no sound at all when mines broke on an old Sierra I had.
If anything, it felt like the car had just run out of petrol...it just died.

Which leads me to a point no one has raised on this thread :question

Fuel supply problem :-/
Has it run out of gas?
When was the tank last filled?
Sender unit in tank giving false reading on dash?
Leak in tank or fuel line?
Blocked fuel filter?

But being honest, sounds like the belt has gone :(
££££££££££££ :-[
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: Andy B on 07 March 2011, 09:17:54
Quote
There does not have to be a lot of noise when a timing belt snaps!
There was no sound at all when mines broke on an old Sierra I had. ......

If you had a Pinto engine it wouldn't make a noise because the valves clear the pistons ie it's a 'safe engine'  ;) but on a V6 Omega, the valves won't clear the pistons.  ;)
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: MICHELINMAN on 07 March 2011, 09:21:41
Point accepted
what do you think about the possible loss of fuel :question
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: Lazydocker on 07 March 2011, 09:33:33
Quote
Point accepted
what do you think about the possible loss of fuel :question
I think it's a wild stab in the dark! Although not impossible ;)

It does sound most like the belt but we need Chris to check whether the Crank is actually turning when cranking the engine :y
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: Brikhead on 07 March 2011, 10:14:27
Quote
IMHO there is insufficient info for any even "educated" guesswork ..

No need for guess work... the mechanic sent by the A.A. (with no interest in fixing the car, so no need to lie!) has already diagnosed cam belt failure, also the original poster has been advised how to confirm this we just need to wait for him to let us know.

When a timing belt snaps the pistons only hit the valves (or some of the valves) once, the valves are then bent out of the way so the next time the piston comes up there is no contact, so no noise.

I still have a spare 2.5 engine available...
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1297614167
... open to offers!
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: chrispin on 07 March 2011, 13:32:35
Thanks everyone for all your input
1st job i will get the covers off the cam and have a look

I was driving back from birmingham when the engine died !!!
I see Thats where Entwood lives

Plenty of fuel in the car range said 140 miles ! and about 1/4 tank new fuel filter on service no leaks that i cud see or smell

I will have fist dibs on the engine if mine is a dead donkey !
Anyone know how easy they are to transplant !

 along with the tow bar and the lights on my car point to the floor have not been able to find a fault yet so poss controler ???
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: Kevin Wood on 07 March 2011, 14:45:00
If it's the worst case scenario of a cam belt failure replacing / refurbing the cylinder heads would be less work than swapping the whole engine.

Kevin
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: chrispin on 07 March 2011, 15:26:55
Maybe for someone who has done one before but i have not!!  I stretched my mechanics stripping back the passenger side of the engine to get to the spark plugs and replacing the leads crawling under the back of the car to change the fuel filter I dont have a great array of tools either most of the general stuff

assuming its the cam belt and stuffed 24 valves what else can go wrong ???? need replacing ????

If i get the parts are there any local mechanics or mobile peeps that wud be able to do this kind of thing VX are theatening £1800
Cam belt change is about £235 2 second hand heads with valves are £145 + p&p ebay + Gaskit kit but would need an experianced mechanic to line everything up and do head bolts torque settings etc etc  :-/   
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: hoofing it on 07 March 2011, 15:35:14
get the covers off and have a look the cambelt might not be broken but it might of stripped the teeth from it.
What you've got to mind is pistons are alloy and the valves are hardened steel so you might not feel them hitting.
Anyway heres hoping its nothing to bad :y
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: ffcgary1 on 07 March 2011, 15:44:27
Hope it is not the cam belt,......... but it smacks of the experiance that my brother in law had on his v6 veccy b, no noise, nothing, just eml on and loss of power, engine span quickly no compresson, turned out to be the belt tensioner had fail after 12,000 miles 16 months after being changed as a kit. vx would not entertain a claim on warrenty basis as it was a 3.0 in a veccy b. >:(
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: PxMetro on 07 March 2011, 21:11:38
A couple of questions....is the battery okay, and is the aux belt still in tact and in place?
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: Andy B on 07 March 2011, 21:24:39
Quote
.....

No need for guess work... the mechanic sent by the A.A. (with no interest in fixing the car, so no need to lie!) has already diagnosed cam belt failure,  .....

Mr AA Man just needs something to write down on his paperwork. Off past experience here, recovery  firms just want to get you recovered & be off to the next job. He couldn't care less what's wrong with your car.
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: Entwood on 07 March 2011, 21:30:45
Quote
Quote
IMHO there is insufficient info for any even "educated" guesswork ..

No need for guess work... the mechanic sent by the A.A. (with no interest in fixing the car, so no need to lie!) has already diagnosed cam belt failure, also the original poster has been advised how to confirm this we just need to wait for him to let us know.

When a timing belt snaps the pistons only hit the valves (or some of the valves) once, the valves are then bent out of the way so the next time the piston comes up there is no contact, so no noise.

I still have a spare 2.5 engine available...
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1297614167
... open to offers!


Having been present when an "AA man" diagnosed a cam belt failure when his own "diagnostic" was telling him it was a crank sensor, then having to tell him he only needed 1 torx tool to change said crank sensor ... I sometimes wonder what engineering school some of them ever went to.

Luckily it was not my car but someone broken down in a car park .... with some "persausion" the crank sensor was changed by said AA man .. and the car started the first time .. :)
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: henryd on 07 March 2011, 22:30:48
Quote
Quote
Quote
IMHO there is insufficient info for any even "educated" guesswork ..

No need for guess work... the mechanic sent by the A.A. (with no interest in fixing the car, so no need to lie!) has already diagnosed cam belt failure, also the original poster has been advised how to confirm this we just need to wait for him to let us know.

When a timing belt snaps the pistons only hit the valves (or some of the valves) once, the valves are then bent out of the way so the next time the piston comes up there is no contact, so no noise.

I still have a spare 2.5 engine available...
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1297614167
... open to offers!


Having been present when an "AA man" diagnosed a cam belt failure when his own "diagnostic" was telling him it was a crank sensor, then having to tell him he only needed 1 torx tool to change said crank sensor ... I sometimes wonder what engineering school some of them ever went to.

Luckily it was not my car but someone broken down in a car park .... with some "persausion" the crank sensor was changed by said AA man .. and the car started the first time .. :)

I had a similar scenario a while back,Renault scenic recovered to me with "gearbox failure" written on the sheet and owner of vehicle in tears at prospect of repair bill,turned out to be a driveshaft gone.Take anything they say with a pinch of salt :-/
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: Ken T on 07 March 2011, 22:53:28
Yes, when my waterpump shaft broke, and the belt came off, bending a couple of valves, Mr AA man reconed it was over heating.


I'm with the RAC now.......

Ken
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: chrispin on 08 March 2011, 12:39:37
Quote
A couple of questions....is the battery okay, and is the aux belt still in tact and in place?
Brand new battery and yes the aux belt is still in place  :y
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: bigtow on 08 March 2011, 13:27:02
If you still havent had any luck diagnosing the fault i may be able to pop over to t wells and give a second opinion as i am in rochester just give me a shout if you want
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: chrispin on 08 March 2011, 19:27:39
Quote
If you still havent had any luck diagnosing the fault i may be able to pop over to t wells and give a second opinion as i am in rochester just give me a shout if you want
Thankyou very much have you had a similar experiance then ??
Got a friend coming to look he does scoobies but knows his way around an engine hopefully he can help diagnose the fault  :'(
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: bigtow on 08 March 2011, 21:42:25
I have had a cambelt jump a tooth at low speed before.  It more a case of two heads are better than one.
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: chrispin on 08 March 2011, 22:57:20
I will be stripping the front of the engine down to get to the belt in the next day or so my friend will pop down for diagnosis !!! if its the belt will be doing an engine transplant  and replacing evey belt and pulley plug and lead & pump !

And taking the oportunity to make some enhansements  ;D :y
Will keep you posted will post up pics of every find !
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: ffcgary1 on 09 March 2011, 12:34:38
There is no need to do a transplant mate, just change the heads and gaskets and fit a new belt kit and away you go. if you need a pair of heads i have a pair of 2.5 heads (no cams) which i am sure we can come to some agreement on.
Up to you of course. :y
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: Martin_1962 on 09 March 2011, 16:59:01
They spin frrely with crank sensor gone
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: chrispin on 09 March 2011, 19:19:55
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They spin frrely with crank sensor gone
Could you expand on this i dont understand the starter spins but does not seem to make the engine turn over what do you mean ?
Thanks
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: chrispin on 09 March 2011, 19:21:10
Could someone please explain what these mean in english !!!

12 Start
135 Telltale (Checklight) Voltage Low
94 Hall Sensor Voltage High
73 Mass Air Flow Sensor Voltage Low ( this was there already when i did the paperclip test a month ago )
31 No Engine RPM Signal ( this is normal )
12 Finish
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: chrispin on 09 March 2011, 19:27:48
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There is no need to do a transplant mate, just change the heads and gaskets and fit a new belt kit and away you go. if you need a pair of heads i have a pair of 2.5 heads (no cams) which i am sure we can come to some agreement on.
Up to you of course. :y
My friend said far easier to do this than strip down and rebuild ???
I guess that would mean i would have to fit the cams from my heads what about the valves ?
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: RobG on 09 March 2011, 19:33:37
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There is no need to do a transplant mate, just change the heads and gaskets and fit a new belt kit and away you go. if you need a pair of heads i have a pair of 2.5 heads (no cams) which i am sure we can come to some agreement on.
Up to you of course. :y
My friend said far easier to do this than strip down and rebuild ???
I guess that would mean i would have to fit the cams from my heads what about the valves ?
yep, but if you buy just the heads make sure they have the cam bearing caps as these are unique to the head.
Rather than all this hypothesising, wouldn`t it be prudent to wait until you have done an inspection to ascertain what if any damage may or may have not been caused ;) :y
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: chrispin on 09 March 2011, 19:42:48
To be armed with as much knowledge as possible

1 to know what to look for process of elimination and where to go next
 and
2 know what to be prepared for and whats it going to take to fix it !
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: chrispin on 12 March 2011, 21:30:01
Well I stripped out half the front of the engine !! but eventually managed to get the cam cover off as i pulled it away i saw the imediate failure  :'( the tensioner on the left hand V had disintergrated so not belt failure but good as the metal parts of the pulley were blue where they had cooked i found ball barings behind the gears at the top so i called my mech friend we turned the crank with a bar the pistons went up and down but you could also hear the valves rattling as well  :'( he also said there was play in the water pump as well so that was on the way out basicly whoever changed the last belt did so without pump or tensioners as the belt was in very good condition  >:(a ticking time bomb one question not that it makes much difference how do you get the crank pulley off 5 small nuts and 1 big nut but how do you stop it spinning  >:(

We have decided to get a new engine and rebuild it new seals gaskets cam kit and water pump interested in 3ltr cams
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: henryd on 12 March 2011, 22:36:13
Quote
Well I stripped out half the front of the engine !! but eventually managed to get the cam cover off as i pulled it away i saw the imediate failure  :'( the tensioner on the left hand V had disintergrated so not belt failure but good as the metal parts of the pulley were blue where they had cooked i found ball barings behind the gears at the top so i called my mech friend we turned the crank with a bar the pistons went up and down but you could also hear the valves rattling as well  :'( he also said there was play in the water pump as well so that was on the way out basicly whoever changed the last belt did so without pump or tensioners as the belt was in very good condition  >:(a ticking time bomb one question not that it makes much difference how do you get the crank pulley off 5 small nuts and 1 big nut but how do you stop it spinning  >:(

We have decided to get a new engine and rebuild it new seals gaskets cam kit and water pump interested in 3ltr cams

I am about halfway through fitting them to my 2.5 :y
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: ffcgary1 on 13 March 2011, 00:44:30
The heads that i have for sale just need your cams fitted and they come with the cam cap as well. valves are all good and dont need lapping.
You looking at a lot of work for nothing unless you really want the 3.0 lt motor.
Sorry to hear about the bearing failure but not uncommon i am afraid.
 FINE ENGINE LET DOWN BY PISS POOR BEARINGS. >:(
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: MutantCav on 13 March 2011, 08:02:26
I have a good 3ltr Engine here for not a great deal of money if you are interested mate :y
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: chrispin on 13 March 2011, 20:40:42
Hi the cost of this project is not to bad the biggest costs will be engine 2.5/3.0 gaskits and cam kit 2.5 with 3ltr cams ?

The rebuild and engine swap will be £100 ( mates rates )

Its the other potential damage to pistons rods and crank shaft and barings that lean me towards engine replacement with full rebuild ( oil cooler ??? does this need replacing as well ? as were there !)

I had considered going to 3ltr but was not sure how much extra work and parts would need to be changed
2 questions Mutant Cav
1 how much
2 is the engine in or out ?
Thanks
Chris
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: youth on 13 March 2011, 21:19:46
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my first two points to check would be belt and starter itself and find out if thats engaging and i know from replacing my enine found out that the crank sensor was faulty and the car wouldnt engage starter or create a spark hope this helps

Faulty crank sensor won't stop engine turning over  ;) only stops it starting.


well i dont know then lol must have had another problem lol not the first time it has cured itself lol last time it was with the maf sensor decided not to work for a week then was fine again  :D
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: MutantCav on 13 March 2011, 22:46:09
PM sent...the engines are exactly the same, just internals that are bigger, external, components etc are the same, 2.5 throttle body needs to be retained rather than using the 3.0 throttle body...if you have a manual then the 2.5 gearbox will be strong enough...if not then I can supply you with the 3.0 auto box all in one...its currently in the car but can have it out in 2-3 hours...basically on the whole its a straight swap in every way :y
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: youth on 13 March 2011, 23:54:35
Quote
Hi the cost of this project is not to bad the biggest costs will be engine 2.5/3.0 gaskits and cam kit 2.5 with 3ltr cams ?

The rebuild and engine swap will be £100 ( mates rates )

Its the other potential damage to pistons rods and crank shaft and barings that lean me towards engine replacement with full rebuild ( oil cooler ??? does this need replacing as well ? as were there !)

I had considered going to 3ltr but was not sure how much extra work and parts would need to be changed
2 questions Mutant Cav
1 how much
2 is the engine in or out ?
Thanks
Chris
go for the engine swap its easier and sometimes an engine with less miles on it too
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: dbug on 14 March 2011, 02:22:54
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my first two points to check would be belt and starter itself and find out if thats engaging and i know from replacing my enine found out that the crank sensor was faulty and the car wouldnt engage starter or create a spark hope this helps

Faulty crank sensor won't stop engine turning over  ;) only stops it starting.


well i dont know then lol must have had another problem lol not the first time it has cured itself lol last time it was with the maf sensor decided not to work for a week then was fine again  :D

???????? What?????????????  :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/

As I said a breaked crank sensor will not stop engine turning over, or starter engaging, it only stops it firing (starting)  ::)
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: Lazydocker on 14 March 2011, 11:24:21
Quote
Quote
Hi the cost of this project is not to bad the biggest costs will be engine 2.5/3.0 gaskits and cam kit 2.5 with 3ltr cams ?

The rebuild and engine swap will be £100 ( mates rates )

Its the other potential damage to pistons rods and crank shaft and barings that lean me towards engine replacement with full rebuild ( oil cooler ??? does this need replacing as well ? as were there !)

I had considered going to 3ltr but was not sure how much extra work and parts would need to be changed
2 questions Mutant Cav
1 how much
2 is the engine in or out ?
Thanks
Chris
go for the engine swap its easier and sometimes an engine with less miles on it too
Matter of opinion really.... My engine's done 171k but I would rebuild it because I know it's well maintained ;)

If you know the history of your engine and know it's been well cared for and serviced, why fit an unknown entity? :-/ :-/ Removing and rebuilding the heads is easier than swapping the engines IMO :y
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: tunnie on 14 March 2011, 11:26:29
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Quote
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Quote
my first two points to check would be belt and starter itself and find out if thats engaging and i know from replacing my enine found out that the crank sensor was faulty and the car wouldnt engage starter or create a spark hope this helps

Faulty crank sensor won't stop engine turning over  ;) only stops it starting.


well i dont know then lol must have had another problem lol not the first time it has cured itself lol last time it was with the maf sensor decided not to work for a week then was fine again  :D

???????? What?????????????  :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/

As I said a breaked crank sensor will not stop engine turning over, or starter engaging, it only stops it firing (starting)  ::)

lol - laugh out loud

Its often case now where many people can't type three words without typing lol as well  :(

Should point out that text speak is against forum rules!
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: chrispin on 14 March 2011, 18:15:33
Quote
Quote
Quote
Hi the cost of this project is not to bad the biggest costs will be engine 2.5/3.0 gaskits and cam kit 2.5 with 3ltr cams ?

The rebuild and engine swap will be £100 ( mates rates )

Its the other potential damage to pistons rods and crank shaft and barings that lean me towards engine replacement with full rebuild ( oil cooler ??? does this need replacing as well ? as were there !)

I had considered going to 3ltr but was not sure how much extra work and parts would need to be changed
2 questions Mutant Cav
1 how much
2 is the engine in or out ?
Thanks
Chris
go for the engine swap its easier and sometimes an engine with less miles on it too
Matter of opinion really.... My engine's done 171k but I would rebuild it because I know it's well maintained ;)

If you know the history of your engine and know it's been well cared for and serviced, why fit an unknown entity? :-/ :-/ Removing and rebuilding the heads is easier than swapping the engines IMO :y
The current engine is an unknown entity ! I have only had the car fully on the road about 6 weeks and it was its first long run and bang acording to the service history it was well maintained and had a cam changes as required

Yes you probably can change the heads easier than a full lump but what about all the other potential damage that the cam has caused crank barings rods pistons rings and and and

Unfortunately I have to move by easter so I will have to put the car on hold park her up and do what i can in the mean time may try and get the old lump out get it on a stand and let my friend pull it apart  ;D 
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: Lazydocker on 14 March 2011, 18:18:45
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Quote
Quote
Quote
Hi the cost of this project is not to bad the biggest costs will be engine 2.5/3.0 gaskits and cam kit 2.5 with 3ltr cams ?

The rebuild and engine swap will be £100 ( mates rates )

Its the other potential damage to pistons rods and crank shaft and barings that lean me towards engine replacement with full rebuild ( oil cooler ??? does this need replacing as well ? as were there !)

I had considered going to 3ltr but was not sure how much extra work and parts would need to be changed
2 questions Mutant Cav
1 how much
2 is the engine in or out ?
Thanks
Chris
go for the engine swap its easier and sometimes an engine with less miles on it too
Matter of opinion really.... My engine's done 171k but I would rebuild it because I know it's well maintained ;)

If you know the history of your engine and know it's been well cared for and serviced, why fit an unknown entity? :-/ :-/ Removing and rebuilding the heads is easier than swapping the engines IMO :y
The current engine is an unknown entity ! I have only had the car fully on the road about 6 weeks and it was its first long run and bang acording to the service history it was well maintained and had a cam changes as required

Yes you probably can change the heads easier than a full lump but what about all the other potential damage that the cam has caused crank barings rods pistons rings and and and

Unfortunately I have to move by easter so I will have to put the car on hold park her up and do what i can in the mean time may try and get the old lump out get it on a stand and let my friend pull it apart  ;D 

It's highly unlikely there is any damage beyond the valves and guides... In fact, I don't think I've ever seen any other than some denting in the piston crowns ;)

But each to their own :y :y
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: MutantCav on 14 March 2011, 19:54:44
Personally I would say changing an engine is a piece of cake...
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: youth on 14 March 2011, 20:14:43
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Quote
Quote
Quote
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my first two points to check would be belt and starter itself and find out if thats engaging and i know from replacing my enine found out that the crank sensor was faulty and the car wouldnt engage starter or create a spark hope this helps

Faulty crank sensor won't stop engine turning over  ;) only stops it starting.


well i dont know then lol must have had another problem lol not the first time it has cured itself lol last time it was with the maf sensor decided not to work for a week then was fine again  :D

???????? What?????????????  :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/

As I said a breaked crank sensor will not stop engine turning over, or starter engaging, it only stops it firing (starting)  ::)

lol - laugh out loud

Its often case now where many people can't type three words without typing lol as well  :(

Should point out that text speak is against forum rules!
oops now i know just so used to using it can you tell i text a lot
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: youth on 14 March 2011, 20:17:55
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Personally I would say changing an engine is a piece of cake...
i agree i started striping my old engine and got fed up with it found that it was far easier just changing the engine and that way you dont have to get replacement gaskets and valves etc
Title: Re: Engine fail ??? please advise
Post by: tunnie on 14 March 2011, 20:46:16
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Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
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my first two points to check would be belt and starter itself and find out if thats engaging and i know from replacing my enine found out that the crank sensor was faulty and the car wouldnt engage starter or create a spark hope this helps

Faulty crank sensor won't stop engine turning over  ;) only stops it starting.


well i dont know then lol must have had another problem lol not the first time it has cured itself lol last time it was with the maf sensor decided not to work for a week then was fine again  :D

???????? What?????????????  :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/

As I said a breaked crank sensor will not stop engine turning over, or starter engaging, it only stops it firing (starting)  ::)

lol - laugh out loud

Its often case now where many people can't type three words without typing lol as well  :(

Should point out that text speak is against forum rules!
oops now i know just so used to using it can you tell i text a lot

So do I, but, modern phones with qwerty keyboards, and unlimited text bundles, there is no longer a need to cramp as many words as possible in the 160 character limit.