Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: feeutfo on 07 March 2011, 18:00:34
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Most odd. Now before I start on the steering box I need to stress, there is no play in the track rod ends and ball joints in the steering linkage. There is no detectable play anywhere. I checked for all these things first because, when holding the road wheel at 9/3 o'clock position on the drivers side there is play that feels for all the world like track rod ball joint play... Except there is non! At all!
I checked. And a mate checked, we both agree, the play appears to be in the steering box itself.it's only reall noticeable on the drivers side wheel, pass side is better but only in a more distant diluted sense. The amount of movement is similar but the knock felt is less harsh.
Hold drivers side wheel at 3/9 o'clock and wiggle for play reveals about 5 mill of play, but the movement feels damped when pushing the wheel inboard with the left side near drivers door, push the wheel inboard from the right side of the wheel near bumper and it feels harsh like a knock. So wiggle gives thump knock thump knock, if you see what I mean.
Doesn't seem to matter if engine running or not, or if the box is adjusted tight or not, the play is the same. Driving with box pre adjustment feels like there's track rod play, slight wonder, slight knock over some bumps with some right hand lock on, except when turning the wheels violently left to right while driving at 10mph or so only gives a knock turning right, left is fine, right knocks and so on.
I have tightened the box adjustment to the point it's a fraction too tight. Makes no odds to the play.
If track rod I would expect any knock to be there turning both ways, if at all. I would much prefer a failed track rod than this, but all ball joints seem fine to both of us. Car has done 62k.
I wouldn't mind too much but Mot is due tomorrow. Arse ! :'(
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Throw it in for MOT, it'll probably pass.
I seem to recall Omega steering boxes are 2woody's favourite job...
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Also, what are the top strut bearings like?
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Also, what are the top strut bearings like?
I undid the top shock mount completely so it was hanging down not contacting the turret. No change!
Maybe the Mot man will find the fault. :-/
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I wish i had let 2 woody adjust the box at the meet now, as he did offer, bless him.
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Was the engine running? A bit of fluid makes a difference.
Also, was the steering wheel set dead ahead? There is less damping effect off-centre.
It would have to be bad enough to upset your Falken twitch need for the car to track straight if it was MOT failure bad.
Kevin
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fancy a trip down to Bovington - I'm stuck in the workshop watching a vehicle run for 24 hours. Mind you, I've managed to fix the driver's seat heater and pedal adjustments.
have you tried the column bearings ?
And/or the rubber column joint ?
p.s. how you getting on with the 4.1 diff ?
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Was the engine running? A bit of fluid makes a difference.
Yep defo, made no odds.
Also, was the steering wheel set dead ahead? There is less damping effect off-centre.
Yes defo, made no odds. Although it is worse off center, as you would expect.
It would have to be bad enough to upset your Falken twitch need for the car to track straight if it was MOT failure bad.
pas side tyre has inside shouder wear from previous wishbones, so it had me looking there was nothing else tbh as it was getting twitchy on that side. Opposite side to the problem found.
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fancy a trip down to Bovington - I'm stuck in the workshop watching a vehicle run for 24 hours. Mind you, I've managed to fix the driver's seat heater and pedal adjustments.
have you tried the column bearings ?
And/or the rubber column joint ?
p.s. how you getting on with the 4.1 diff ?
Only examined externally so far, dif is exactly the same :-/
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fancy a trip down to Bovington - I'm stuck in the workshop watching a vehicle run for 24 hours. Mind you, I've managed to fix the driver's seat heater and pedal adjustments.
have you tried the column bearings ?
And/or the rubber column joint ?
p.s. how you getting on with the 4.1 diff ?
Only examined externally so far, dif is exactly the same :-/
And could pop down tomorrow pm.
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fancy a trip down to Bovington - I'm stuck in the workshop watching a vehicle run for 24 hours. Mind you, I've managed to fix the driver's seat heater and pedal adjustments.
have you tried the column bearings ?
And/or the rubber column joint ?
p.s. how you getting on with the 4.1 diff ?
Only examined externally so far, dif is exactly the same :-/
And could pop down tomorrow pm.
we're finishing at 14.00, after which I'm intending to sleep for a long time !
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fancy a trip down to Bovington - I'm stuck in the workshop watching a vehicle run for 24 hours. Mind you, I've managed to fix the driver's seat heater and pedal adjustments.
have you tried the column bearings ?
And/or the rubber column joint ?
p.s. how you getting on with the 4.1 diff ?
Only examined externally so far, dif is exactly the same :-/
And could pop down tomorrow pm.
we're finishing at 14.00, after which I'm intending to sleep for a long time !
Too right.
If another date suits? ... Pm pending.
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I'm down South again most of next week, so could meet up then.
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I'm down South again most of next week, so could meet up then.
Late shift next week sadly, but always up for a trip to bovington/curry house/pub or whatever if not working.
Could take a day off though. We're not busy atm.
Passed Mot btw. Sailed through. I asked bloke about this issue, said "thats normal for a steering box! Dont worry.... Or do you want me to fail it" .... Not always a good idea to build a more friendly relationship with your mot tester. :-/ ;D
I explained about a certain admins problems passing mot's. He went out to tell the rst of the lads, much laughter was heard as i left. ;D. :-X
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I explained about a certain admins problems passing mot's. He went out to tell the rst of the lads, much laughter was heard as i left. ;D. :-X
;D ;D ;D ;D
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I'm down South again most of next week, so could meet up then.
Late shift next week sadly, but always up for a trip to bovington/curry house/pub or whatever if not working.
Could take a day off though. We're not busy atm.
Passed Mot btw. Sailed through. I asked bloke about this issue, said "thats normal for a steering box! Dont worry.... Or do you want me to fail it" .... Not always a good idea to build a more friendly relationship with your mot tester. :-/ ;D
I explained about a certain admins problems passing mot's. He went out to tell the rst of the lads, much laughter was heard as i left. ;D. :-X
11587 ;D
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I'm down South again most of next week, so could meet up then.
Late shift next week sadly, but always up for a trip to bovington/curry house/pub or whatever if not working.
Could take a day off though. We're not busy atm.
Passed Mot btw. Sailed through. I asked bloke about this issue, said "thats normal for a steering box! Dont worry.... Or do you want me to fail it" .... Not always a good idea to build a more friendly relationship with your mot tester. :-/ ;D
I explained about a certain admins problems passing mot's. He went out to tell the rst of the lads, much laughter was heard as i left. ;D. :-X
11587 ;D
Not any more :-X :-X :D :D
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;D ;D WOOOOH HERUMPHITY ;D ;D
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Passed Mot btw
:y
At least that gives you time to investigate. Clutching at straws, but could it be a bit of wear of the worm in the steering box being exaggerated by the drop arm? :-/
To explain: when there's play on the idler it allows the tie rod to lift.
ISTR that if the shaft that the drop arm bolts to has any movement, it will be in/out. more likely to move up as gravity will encourage everything to settle downwards. :-/
As you turn the off side wheel by hand, this would load that track rod, which in turn would push on the tie rod, and in turn push the drop arm up. The drop arm is more securely fixed to its shaft than the idler, (drop arm shaft is active, idler shaft is passive), so any leverage from the the track/tie rods will perhaps make itself known within the steering box given half a chance.
Couple of other questions:
1. Any sign of grease leaking from the steering box?
2. can the 'box be re greased without removal?
3. How much of the cars history do you know? 150 miles per week average could mean alot of trips to the shops/time spent manoeuvring in car parks leading to premature wear of the box?
HTH,
Al. :y
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Tester agrees, there is no play at all in the steering linkages, ball joints, idler, wheel barings.
Very very slight flex in the idler up and down of being really fussy.
Its as if the box has lost damping, or some of its damping, when turning in one particular direction.
But as 2woody says, need to check the steering column etc before looking at the box.
There is some evidence of grease around the box damper(?) adjuster around the 17 mill nut, but nothing massive.
No sign of any leaks undernieth.
History and underside would sugest a sheltered life, nothing to sugest hard use.
Except for the slight knock fealt through the steering wheel when turning back the other way there's not alot wrong when driving, apart from the previous tyre ware of course. Soon be time for the other wheels anyway.
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The rubber disc that connects the column to the 'box is easy enough to get at to check;
you just need to drop the trim from above the pedals, and the column runs between the clutch and brake pedals. You can see it without dropping the trim, but obviously easier to check with the trim out of the way. Mine has a slight clonk from the steering column guessing the lower bush in the column, as no play (up/down/left/right-not turning) at the wheel.
Not sure that play in the column itself would cause your problem though, if it seems to be a damping issue. :-/
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Didn't mention, there are occasions when the steering is stiffer turning one way, right I think. Strange. :-/
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Not sure exactly how the steering box works, never having dismantled one ::), but symptoms suggest that it could be either a sticking valve in the power steering circuit, or internal wear. If you're getting a knock from it, that would suggest mechanical movement, possibly a bit too much float/play inside the 'box, which loosens one way and tightens the other. :-/
Does it clonk when turning the same way as the tightening sensation? My thruppence ha'penny would say it clonks on way and tightens the other... :-/
If anyone can get to the bottom of it, 2woody's the chap. :y
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just out of interest, does the steering wheel "lock" in the straight ahead position when you take the key out ?
you can experiment with the damper to make sure that it's all straight-ahead, best done with the steering arm to centre drag-link disconnected. When tightened, you can actually feel where the centre part is.
there's not much inside a steering box to wear out, normally a failure is due to one of the recirculating balls flatting, but that's pretty obvious.
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No, key out it's off to the left. Centre of the lock play is about 3mins to 12 o'clock, ish.
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looks like you might be into some column removal this weekend then !
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I take it should central? And there are no factory errors in the steering lock position on the column? And this all points to steering column set up?
Play at the road wheel felt the same regardless of steering wheel position. Just slightly more play the further away from straight ahead, which I would expect. The play itself does not greatly concern me, currently the shoulder ware on pas side is causing more tramlining. What's anoying is the clonk on one side of the play.
It feels like the same clonk when moving the road wheel with steering lock on, but only in one direction. Except the steering lock is off, and the position of the steering makes no odds. Wiggle the road wheel throughout the steering range and it's the same bump clonk bump clonk from lock to lock.
I'll certainly look at the column, probably at Oxford meet. But just want to make sure I have explained the thing correctly mean time. Tis odd though.
Wonder if it's had a wack, one of the road wheels is slightly buckled. ? :-/
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Not ad a chance to look at the column, not that I know what I'm doing with that anyway, but did check all the cars at the Oxford meet for steering wheel position with steering lock on. Only one was straight, two off to the right, mine and one other off to the left.
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that's interesting - all of mine get a column-off steering box adjustment and reset on reassembly. Maybe they're variable ?
have you checked the steering inner shaft to outer shaft fit in the column ?
points of variation, if you like, are :-
steering column pivot joint - the spider thing in the middle
steering outer column pivots (have seen these wear from time to time)
inner to outer column
rubber coupling
column joint loose
box misaligned
loose steering arm
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Chris,
had a similar problem with my steering box about a year ago, no play in the linkage and tightening the damper didnt help.
In the end I changed the 'box.
On dismantling the old box there was no play between the worm and nut or between nut and sector shaft. The only lost motion was between the input shaft and the worm.....the shaft isnt solid, it allows some movement which operates the hydraulic valves to provide assistance.
I guess one of the valves was stuck or leaky, I seem to remember there being more assistance in one direction than the other.
You could try a fluid change to see if new fluid can flush out any dirt or deposits in the valves.
What level of assistance is your 'box programmed for? Have you had the steering stiffened-up using Tech 2 at some point?
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It also sounds as if your steering box isnt centred properly, there is a 'high' spot on the sector which must be centred on the mid-point of the worm for mimnimal play in the straight-ahead position.
There is an alignment mark on the box case and input shaft which sets the centre position for the box. (very awkward to see in-situ...need mirrors); you then fit the column to the box (one master sline to set alignment) and the steering wheel should be straight....move the steering wheel on the splines if not. Now when you drive the car, if the steering wheel is off-centre get the wheel alignment done properly which should reset the steering arm lengths and result in the box 'tight spot' being back in the centre position again.
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Chris,
had a similar problem with my steering box about a year ago, no play in the linkage and tightening the damper didnt help.
In the end I changed the 'box.
On dismantling the old box there was no play between the worm and nut or between nut and sector shaft. The only lost motion was between the input shaft and the worm.....the shaft isnt solid, it allows some movement which operates the hydraulic valves to provide assistance.
I guess one of the valves was stuck or leaky, I seem to remember there being more assistance in one direction than the other.
You could try a fluid change to see if new fluid can flush out any dirt or deposits in the valves.
What level of assistance is your 'box programmed for? Have you had the steering stiffened-up using Tech 2 at some point?
Suspect a box change will be the answer(without knowing anything about the thing) but there does seem to be a problem with movement one way not the other, it clonks one way and feels stiff one way(could be intermittently stiff one way, or intermittently stiff both ways, not sussed it yet, but it's always at about 25-35mph turning "into" a 90 degree junction, not noticed it straightening the steering out again, or pulling out of the same junction)
Re servo tronic setting tech2 has not been in that ecu yet, unless Kev or TB remember otherwise, but it feels the same as previous two cars, so wouod guess it's set to minimal assistance as usual, bar the intermitant issue which would equate to further loss of assistance.
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It also sounds as if your steering box isnt centred properly, there is a 'high' spot on the sector which must be centred on the mid-point of the worm for mimnimal play in the straight-ahead position.
There is an alignment mark on the box case and input shaft which sets the centre position for the box. (very awkward to see in-situ...need mirrors); you then fit the column to the box (one master sline to set alignment) and the steering wheel should be straight....move the steering wheel on the splines if not. Now when you drive the car, if the steering wheel is off-centre get the wheel alignment done properly which should reset the steering arm lengths and result in the box 'tight spot' being back in the centre position again.
Yeah, been discussing that with 2 woody, might be able to meet up with him at some point to go over it. I feel I have set the box a fraction too tight ATM, deliberately so to see how it settles, but I can't honestly say there is a tight spot anywhere near straight ahead position as there was on the previous car when over tight. It feels tight ish from 10 to 12 through to 10 past 12oclock. Not what I expected at all. It feeds back a bit less and is a bit slower to centre but that means it holds a straight line a bit better, also means motorways are a bit of a zig zag rather than a weave if you see what I mean.
Clonk is unaffected with the box tighter.
Where are these valves mentioned, don't suppose they're accessible for one minute? :(
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I'm trying to remember if we checked the servotronic assistance on that car when the 2015 was swapped over. :-/
Kevin
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I'm trying to remember if we checked the servotronic assistance on that car when the 2015 was swapped over. :-/
Kevin
Don't think so, no codes found anywhere though. :-/
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Steering code index is 008 for normal assistance as far as I remember.
The symptoms of tacking down the motorway and not improving with tightening the damper matches my experience. I even set the damper so tight it wouldnt self centre and the play was still there.
It sounds to me like one of the torque sensing valves on the input shaft / worm is stuck or leaky. A box swap will fix it but try a fluid change first.
Box swap is fairly easy by omega standards, drop the RH exhaust down-pipe and make a careful note of how the old box comes out.....you will need to reverse the twists and turns exactly to get it in again and its heavy on the arms if you end up faffing about to get it in place.
Balljoint to the centre tie rod will be the hardest bit, I had to use the two-hammer method. Dont even think about pulling the pitman arm off..it wont move.
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there aren't any valves in the servotronic system - it's simply a pwm solenoid on the side of the steering box which bleeds off some of the "normal" steering pressure.
I'm in the South again next week (Monday to Wednesday) - you working normal shifts Chris ?
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there aren't any valves in the servotronic system - it's simply a pwm solenoid on the side of the steering box which bleeds off some of the "normal" steering pressure.
I'm in the South again next week (Monday to Wednesday) - you working normal shifts Chris ?
Ok, let's upset TB and make a date. :y
Any day is good as I'm on early's finishing at 2pm next week.. Or might be able to take a day off. You playing tanks? Could bomb down to you no problem ? :)
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I'll come up to you - just send me a pm.
make a start by removing the plastic steering column top covers.
....... and do you want me to bring a spare steering box with me ?
going to bring the track car, you can marvel at the brake set-up