Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: tunnie on 24 January 2008, 15:43:21
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Some interesting cars going though...including lots of 3.0 Diesel BMW's,
Be interesting to see what these go for....
BMW 530D AUTO - 2926cc 4dr Saloon Dec 2002 Silver Diesel Auto 69378 Correct Here BY ORDER OF METROPOLITAN POLICE AUTHORITY
BMW 330D TOURING AUTO - 2993cc 5dr Estate Dec 2004 White Diesel Auto 152384 Correct Here BY ORDER OF HAMPSHIRE CONSTABULARY
JAGUAR S-TYPE V6 SE AUTO - 2497cc 4dr Saloon Apr 2004 Silver Petrol Auto Apr 2008 40067 Unchecked Taken Here BY ORDER OF BRITISH TRANSPORT POLICE
BMW 530D AUTO - 2926cc 4dr Saloon May 2003 Blue Diesel Auto Dec 2008 77105 Correct Here BY ORDER OF METROPOLITAN POLICE AUTHORITY
There are tones of the 3.0 diesels.... lots of mercs too all x-plod too!
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idea:
diesel pumps are bloody expensive..
and the richest people in repair is diesel pump repair services ;D
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does anyone have a clue as to the sorts of prices things go for at Witney these days, I haven't been for 15 years or so...
???????
(there's 2 miggy estates in this auction.... and the beemer 330 tourers , and volvo V70 T5's and all sorts.... )
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does anyone have a clue as to the sorts of prices things go for at Witney these days, I haven't been for 15 years or so...
???????
(there's 2 miggy estates in this auction.... and the beemer 330 tourers , and volvo V70 T5's and all sorts.... )
max - i'll not down some prices for you! I have already printed out some of them, to note down the price they go for...
If the BMW 330d & 530d's go for a reasonable price (ie in my budget, it might be bye bye miggy!)
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remember you have to pay VAT and commission on top iirc
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remember you have to pay VAT and commission on top iirc
i doubt i can afford them, even high millage ones on AT go for around 7k..
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bmw diesels are a PITA anyway ;)
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According to the WOMA site, there's usually no VAT on the cars, but there is on the commission and other charges.....
Vans and commercials on the other hand always carry VAT.
(which is as I recall it from my days of motoring adventures back in the late 80's & early 90's )
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WTF they're all auto... do none of the police drivers actually drive any more? Next they'll be fitted with robots so that when the bandits dump the car and do a runner the cops can just send the robot after them while they put their feet up and eat donuts ::)
I'll give you that the diseasels aren't exactly the most exciting things to drive at the best of times, but still.... you can still have some B-road fun in a 6-speed manual 330D. Not a patch on the 330Ci though, but then neither is the fuel economy ;)
Are they white, or are the silver ones coming through for sale now?
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I went about 4 years ago. They had a few meegas - mway patrol cars by the looks of things. Given the cosmetic condition - holes (inside and out) and marks where the stickers had been peeled off, and general tattyness I thought they were not particularly cheap.
Unmarked ones that haven't had a 'life' are probably more expensive but better value.
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WTF they're all auto... do none of the police drivers actually drive any more? Next they'll be fitted with robots so that when the bandits dump the car and do a runner the cops can just send the robot after them while they put their feet up and eat donuts ::)
I'll give you that the diseasels aren't exactly the most exciting things to drive at the best of times, but still.... you can still have some B-road fun in a 6-speed manual 330D. Not a patch on the 330Ci though, but then neither is the fuel economy ;)
Are they white, or are the silver ones coming through for sale now?
They are not for fun they use them for reliability, rough usage of manuals can kill them very quickly
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remember you have to pay VAT and commission on top iirc
You dont pay VAT unless the original purchaser reclaimed the VAT (assuming its one owner from new)........but it always tells you on the ticket on the windscreen/window if vat liable
Commission you do........its normally about 5% .....and unless you have an account with the auction house.......its normally 10% deposit on the fall of the hammer.......so make sure you have pocket full of readies or a debit card :y
Using cc's usually are a premium as well.
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Shame you didnt mention a few days ago tunnie.....i could have made time to attend as well.
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WTF they're all auto... do none of the police drivers actually drive any more? Next they'll be fitted with robots so that when the bandits dump the car and do a runner the cops can just send the robot after them while they put their feet up and eat donuts ::)
I'll give you that the diseasels aren't exactly the most exciting things to drive at the best of times, but still.... you can still have some B-road fun in a 6-speed manual 330D. Not a patch on the 330Ci though, but then neither is the fuel economy ;)
Are they white, or are the silver ones coming through for sale now?
They are not for fun they use them for reliability, rough usage of manuals can kill them very quickly
We use manuals for panda's and patrol use. Some cars are auto (Merc ML tonka truck was one, now dead and buried, thankfully) such as a Volvo we bought as an ex demo. By default, we get manuals. Not seen a broken manual gearbox in a patrol car round my way in almost 20 years.....
A few rubber ducked auto's though...... :-X
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WTF they're all auto... do none of the police drivers actually drive any more? Next they'll be fitted with robots so that when the bandits dump the car and do a runner the cops can just send the robot after them while they put their feet up and eat donuts ::)
I'll give you that the diseasels aren't exactly the most exciting things to drive at the best of times, but still.... you can still have some B-road fun in a 6-speed manual 330D. Not a patch on the 330Ci though, but then neither is the fuel economy ;)
Are they white, or are the silver ones coming through for sale now?
They are not for fun they use them for reliability, rough usage of manuals can kill them very quickly
We use manuals for panda's and patrol use. Some cars are auto (Merc ML tonka truck was one, now dead and buried, thankfully) such as a Volvo we bought as an ex demo. By default, we get manuals. Not seen a broken manual gearbox in a patrol car round my way in almost 20 years.....
A few rubber ducked auto's though...... :-X
Am I right in thinking the firearms guys like Auto's? I heard this from a plod forum member when doing his cambelt kit....
BTW Brucie, you have PM :)
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They are not for fun they use them for reliability, rough usage of manuals can kill them very quickly
LOL.... and by contrast any usage of an auto can and probably will kill them very quickly. You only need to take a quick look around this forum to see the ratio of failed autos to manuals ;)
Unless it's very poorly engineered, it's actually pretty hard to wreck a manual box. The clutch obviously wears out and needs replaced at some interval, but even on a hard driven Omega I'd expect 60k out of one (mine lasted 170k!) and it's hardly a big job.
Driving hard doesn't do the box much harm at all, only doing stupid things like crunching it into gear by not using the clutch without matching the revs, or continuing to drive it with a dragging clutch etc are likely to wreck it, and even then it can take some time. I've even seen a manual box survive about 10,000 miles of having barely any oil in an old van a mate used to have ;D. I doubt pursuit drivers do any of that, even when driving hard, so I doubt reliability is an issue.
I bet they wreck more engines than manual boxes!
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Am I right in thinking the firearms guys like Auto's?
That's so they can do drive-bys, Compton style 8-)
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You only need to take a quick look around this forum to see the ratio of failed autos to manuals ;)
Though that's a bit of a skewed comparison when you look at the ratio of Omega's produced with an auto box compared to manual.....
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We use manuals for panda's and patrol use. Some cars are auto (Merc ML tonka truck was one, now dead and buried, thankfully) such as a Volvo we bought as an ex demo. By default, we get manuals. Not seen a broken manual gearbox in a patrol car round my way in almost 20 years.....
A few rubber ducked auto's though...... :-X
Was the same down at my folks' bit (Strathclyde region), I've been in the back of a few traffic cars back when I stayed down there, and they were all manual. And that included a Mercedes, was quite surprised at that really as Mercs tend to be marketed more at the "mature" driver hence almost non-existance of manuals.
On a similar note, a (semi) interesting alcohol fuelled story...
I was out partying with some mates from down there about a year ago, came out of the club at 3am and there was the usual odd cop here and there keeping an eye on the crowd. Just around the corner were two spanking new BMW 5-series traffic cars. So I went over for a chat and asked if they were 535d, as I suspected they were. So I started giving the driver some stick about it being auto (as they all are, BMW in their infinite wisdom made the diseasel auto only, and of course the M5 manual aka SMG). Just some friendly banter, he did mention that it had flappy paddles on the steering wheel, but I quickly countered that by mentioning the dreaded torque converter is still present. I suggested they should ask for M5s next time ;D before wandering off on my merry way to go chat to some chicks :D
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You only need to take a quick look around this forum to see the ratio of failed autos to manuals ;)
Though that's a bit of a skewed comparison when you look at the ratio of Omega's produced with an auto box compared to manual.....
Not really, considering the number of posts I've come across concerning manual box failures has been in the single figures, yet there's probably not a week goes by without a post (usually several) concerning a problem or failure with an auto. Somehow I have my doubts that the ratio of autos to manuals is anywhere near approaching the failure ratio ::). On the Vectra, manuals far outnumber autos by a bigger margin than auto/manual on the Omega, yet there are still far more cases of auto failures.
If anything the manuals tend to be driven harder on average too, as it will typically be younger guys driving them, many of whom like to try out the limits of RWD adhesion, just to practice in case it happens unexpectedly on a slippery surface of course ;).
Back to the original point, regardless of my driving preference I'd loathe to buy an auto car with over 100k miles on it, as it's a failure waiting to happen. You may be lucky and the previous owners did regular oil changes and was gentle with it, but I bet those are in the minority. The thing with a manual is it doesn't actually need any maintenance (I change the oil in mine anyway but it's usually still clean), so even a neglected one will probably still outlive the engine and/or bodywork. It's not a big deal if you have the equipment and skills to do the work yourself, but for the rest of us I'd rather avoid the hassle.
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If anything the manuals tend to be driven harder on average too, as it will typically be younger guys driving them
Young people may think they drive harder ;). I did when I was your age ;). And I thought I could do it safely (and didn't have a bump for years). You've heard me say before, everyone needs a significant accident.
Cheers,
TheGrandad
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The thing with a manual is it doesn't actually need any maintenance (I change the oil in mine anyway but it's usually still clean), so even a neglected one will probably still outlive the engine and/or bodywork. It's not a big deal if you have the equipment and skills to do the work yourself, but for the rest of us I'd rather avoid the hassle.
This is the key. Manuals very rarely leak oil, and don't suffer too badly if it's never changed (some don't have a drain plug after all).
Auto boxes, on the other hand, can lose oil through external coolers, etc., it has a much harder life, collects more contaminants and the setup on the Omega seems almost designed to promote neglect because the fluid is so difficult to check, top up and change.
A well looked-after auto will always outlast the clutch on a manual but once it starts to wear, instead of having one wear item that's easily changed, you're into a complex overhaul. Both are gearbox-out jobs anyway, though :-/
Kevin
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If anything the manuals tend to be driven harder on average too, as it will typically be younger guys driving them
Young people may think they drive harder ;). I did when I was your age ;). And I thought I could do it safely (and didn't have a bump for years). You've heard me say before, everyone needs a significant accident.
Cheers,
TheGrandad
LOL... perhaps, although in this case I'm not talking about getting from A to B quicker (which may or may not be the case), but in terms of the abuse the car receives, the younger the driver the worse it is usually, in my observance at least. Except in the case of hire cars, which get hell's abuse regardless of driver age ;)
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The thing with a manual is it doesn't actually need any maintenance (I change the oil in mine anyway but it's usually still clean), so even a neglected one will probably still outlive the engine and/or bodywork. It's not a big deal if you have the equipment and skills to do the work yourself, but for the rest of us I'd rather avoid the hassle.
This is the key. Manuals very rarely leak oil, and don't suffer too badly if it's never changed (some don't have a drain plug after all).
Auto boxes, on the other hand, can lose oil through external coolers, etc., it has a much harder life, collects more contaminants and the setup on the Omega seems almost designed to promote neglect because the fluid is so difficult to check, top up and change.
A well looked-after auto will always outlast the clutch on a manual but once it starts to wear, instead of having one wear item that's easily changed, you're into a complex overhaul. Both are gearbox-out jobs anyway, though :-/
Kevin
In my limited experience I think it's got a lot to do with the simplicity of it. A manual box is simply a set of gears in a constant mesh, with some selector forks to move the input/output shafts around. Apart from the synchromesh to allow non-RPM matched shifts, it's barely changed in terms of the fundamental design since its inception. Hence, there's very little to actually go wrong, as long as the gears are engineered to be strong enough for the engine's torque output.
Autos on the other hand have all manner of hydraulics inside there, with various high and low pressure parts, clutch bands, etc. With many more moving parts, it's inevitably going to have more potential failure points. Also with the oil being shared between the gearbox and the torque converter, which is dissipating a large amount of power from the engine in the form of heat due to the slippage, means that driving it hard gets the entire oil for the transmission very hot, which I doubt does it much good.
And that's before you even consider the electrics, which we all know are an achilles heel in many modern cars. Even if the mechanicals are OK, how often do we hear of selector switch failures in Omegas? Granted that's probably down to (yet another) stupid design decision -- why the hell is it underneath the car exposing it to the elements? I guess it's the same reason the handbrake adjuster is there, to make it as inaccessible as possible.
It'll be interesting to see how the SMG II gearboxes hold up over time as they get older. The actual gearbox part itself shouldn't have any problems, as it's basically just a normal manual box. But all the hydraulics and electronics to do the shifting are much closer to what you'd find in an auto, and I suspect we'll start seeing failures in those as they get over 100k miles. They don't have the oil heating and contamination issues though, so maybe not. I also wonder how the clutch will hold up, seeing that every shift should be a "perfect" one, although the launch control (dumps the clutch at 5,000 RPM from standstill) certainly won't help!
BTW I think you're perhaps being a little optimistic in saying a looked-after auto will always outlast the clutch in a manual. Mine lasted 170k, and that wasn't pussy-footing it around. Yes, some autos will last that long with regular fluid and filter changes, but I expect quite a few would still experience failures. And at £180 inc labour for a new clutch kit that should last another 170k along with the gearbox, it still works out a lot cheaper to keep the manual box maintained and on the road.
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Well tunnie, did you buy anything?? :-/
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It'll be interesting to see how the SMG II gearboxes hold up over time
Yep. Not sure how I feel about those. Never driven one, in all honesty, but if the car's going to have essentially a manual gearbox and clutch why have all that complexity? Yes, I'm sure you can achieve very quick changes but does that really make much difference on the road once the novelty has worn off? And is it great when changing up at the rev limiter but awful when in traffic? :-/
I'd also have to be convinced it has better wear characteristics than conventional sequential boxes, and that the rest of the drivetrain doesn't get killed by those fast changes!
Part of the satisfaction of making decent shifts, matching the revs by blipping the throttle when downshifting, etc. is honing the required skills to do it manually. Sitting in an armchair and watching a computer do it is surely getting back to what you get with a conventional auto?
Kevin
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I agree with most of what you're saying. I shouldn't bash SMG (or DSG) as I've never driven one. But I'm sceptical as to how much I'll enjoy it, as I like selecting the cogs by hand, having the freedom to jump several gears at once (which I do quite a lot), and having full control of the clutch. I heel-toe pretty much all the time in the BMW, less so in the Omega because the pedal layout isn't amenable to it making it more difficult.
I presume your Westfield has a bike gearbox or similar sequential setup, so you'll realise just how good those boxes can be. The box in my R1 is fantastic, you can clutchless upshift it in the blink of an eye with just a gentle roll-off of the power, so you barely lose anything in acceleration by shifting. The movement is really short and precise too. You lose the ability to jump several gears at once, but you gain so much in performance and precision that it doesn't matter. I doubt it would work in a normal car though, as it probably couldn't handle the weight and torque, plus the ratios have to be very close together for the clutchless upshifting to work, which wouldn't work well in a normal car -- a sports bike's 1st gear is quite high as it would be useless otherwise, it would lift the front end far too easily. Similarly 6th gear is quite low as you have 12000+ RPM to play with, hence why the ratios are really close.
On your last comment I must add a saving grace that makes SMG far preferable to a conventional auto to me -- that is the lack of a torque converter. It's the main reason I still stongly dislike even "steptronic" or "tiptronic" or whatever marketing name they're using this week, basically autos that you can tell the computer that you'd like it to change. But you still get that elastic band effect when adjusting the throttle, and it's something I detest when changing speed a lot like on a windy road. It's great for those who want a super smooth gearchange as it dampens out any jerkiness, but for spirited driving it's a horrible thing. Give me the jerkiness of a proper clutch any day.
Hence I'd be quite willing to give SMG or DSG a go with an open mind, but I know anything with a torque converter will piss me off pretty quickly.
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well back...
Omega wise? A 1999 CD spec mini-facelift went though, 120k odd miles i think, went for £300, looked tidy.
x-plod facelift x plate estate, but this must have been their skid pad car, headlights removed and replaced with black plastic, inner wheel arching was hanging out, racing slicks on the back, and very rough body work.
Another x-plod also facelift, this one had A pilla damage, general shed really, went for £525 :o :o :o - on a X plate too.
Saw loads of 330d & 530d's and some Jags used to support the PM.
2003 530d with 67k on the clock in a grey/silver colour, fairly tidy, went for £5k - Cheapest AT version was 8k in retail spec.
2004 330d Tourings, needed a tad of tidying up, went for 6k
The 530d's pulling out, where super, super smooth!! no way could you tell that was a tractor if it was de-badged.
Seams large engined cars went for the best value, lots of interest in 4x4's and small diesels.
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I presume your Westfield has a bike gearbox or similar sequential setup, so you'll realise just how good those boxes can be.
Nope. Just a standard Ford 5 speed MT75 as fitted to the later Sierra, Grandada and Transit (the shame!). While sequential gearboxes are lovely they are extremely expensive (unless they come with a bike engine attached) and don't do a lot of miles between rebuilds so, given that mine does mostly road miles I'm happy with a standard gearbox. Temptation to upgrade is always there though. The one thing I would change is the ratios. A first gear designed for caravan pulling is just a joke in a 650kg car with 200 BHP. Unfotunately that means changing to an older type of gearbox for me because gear kits are scarce for the box I've got. Should have done my homework when I built it. ::)
I doubt it would work in a normal car though, as it probably couldn't handle the weight and torque, plus the ratios have to be very close together for the clutchless upshifting to work, which wouldn't work well in a normal car -- a sports bike's 1st gear is quite high as it would be useless otherwise, it would lift the front end far too easily. Similarly 6th gear is quite low as you have 12000+ RPM to play with, hence why the ratios are really close.
They work surprisingly well in a car once you've got it rolling. Not ideal in traffic or on the motorway for the reasons you have stated. Cruising at 9000 RPM is a bit wearing but if mine were predominantly a track toy I'd have one like a shot.
On your last comment I must add a saving grace that makes SMG far preferable to a conventional auto to me -- that is the lack of a torque converter. It's the main reason I still stongly dislike even "steptronic" or "tiptronic" or whatever marketing name they're using this week, basically autos that you can tell the computer that you'd like it to change. But you still get that elastic band effect when adjusting the throttle, and it's something I detest when changing speed a lot like on a windy road. It's great for those who want a super smooth gearchange as it dampens out any jerkiness, but for spirited driving it's a horrible thing. Give me the jerkiness of a proper clutch any day.
Well, autos are best left as autos, IMHO. Whether you or the ECU decide when to change makes little odds so tiptronic shifts and the like are just gimicks. Another toy that only takes 20 lines of code in the autobox ECU to implement, so comes free. The fact remains that they are limited in the number of ratios available and the torque converter is there to compensate. It's a totally different animal. I like having the auto in my Omega, personally, but I didn't buy it as a sports car.
Kevin
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It'll be interesting to see how the SMG II gearboxes hold up over time[/quote]
Yep. Not sure how I feel about those. Never driven one, in all honesty, but if the car's going to have essentially a manual gearbox and clutch why have all that complexity? Yes, I'm sure you can achieve very quick changes but does that really make much difference on the road once the novelty has worn off? And is it great when changing up at the rev limiter but awful when in traffic? :-/
I'd also have to be convinced it has better wear characteristics than conventional sequential boxes, and that the rest of the drivetrain doesn't get killed by those fast changes!
Part of the satisfaction of making decent shifts, matching the revs by blipping the throttle when downshifting, etc. is honing the required skills to do it manually. Sitting in an armchair and watching a computer do it is surely getting back to what you get with a conventional auto?
Kevin
put simply....they don't....
friend of mine who owns a garage has 2x330c Bm's with SMG's and both of them have got knackered boxes.
both of them are pump related and both of them have had hard lives, both of them are looking at 1k+ bills......and that is not BM prices
SMG...not for me, sounds costly and is still a gloryfied auto
KISS for me.......Keep It Simple Stupid
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well back...
Omega wise? A 1999 CD spec mini-facelift went though, 120k odd miles i think, went for £300, looked tidy.
x-plod facelift x plate estate, but this must have been their skid pad car, headlights removed and replaced with black plastic, inner wheel arching was hanging out, racing slicks on the back, and very rough body work.
Another x-plod also facelift, this one had A pilla damage, general shed really, went for £525 :o :o :o - on a X plate too.
Saw loads of 330d & 530d's and some Jags used to support the PM.
2003 530d with 67k on the clock in a grey/silver colour, fairly tidy, went for £5k - Cheapest AT version was 8k in retail spec.
2004 330d Tourings, needed a tad of tidying up, went for 6k
The 530d's pulling out, where super, super smooth!! no way could you tell that was a tractor if it was de-badged.
Seams large engined cars went for the best value, lots of interest in 4x4's and small diesels.
The bird driving that CD through the auction looked quite tidy as well ;)
The CD was tidy, instantly resellable, assuming it would make it to the petrol station.
The other 2 Omegas were for breaking only, and being ex plod....
I thought those 330d and 530d sounded as rough as any other diesel :-/