Omega Owners Forum

Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: TheBoy on 03 July 2011, 21:34:07

Title: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: TheBoy on 03 July 2011, 21:34:07
Under extreme braking from high speed, the pedal goes to the floor.

It starts out normal for the first few seconds, but then steps down a bit, they steps down again to the floor.

The brakes were already very hot before this.


Change the fluid?  ...  ...after all, this has full Vx service history :P
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: Lazydocker on 03 July 2011, 21:39:52
Quote
Under extreme braking from high speed, the pedal goes to the floor.

It starts out normal for the first few seconds, but then steps down a bit, they steps down again to the floor.

The brakes were already very hot before this.


Change the fluid?  ...  ...after all, this has full Vx service history :P

Mine was the same until I changed the fluid :y
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: Gaffers on 03 July 2011, 21:47:57
I reckon it's the driving seat/steering wheel interface.  Replace with one more sedate and the problem should go  ;D :y
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: Broomies Mate on 03 July 2011, 22:03:23
Are both Brake Light Bulbs working?  :-/

 ;)
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: dbug on 03 July 2011, 22:03:48
Change the brake fluid Jaime - it's full of water and you're boiling it!!
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: TheBoy on 03 July 2011, 22:05:07
Quote
I reckon it's the driving seat/steering wheel interface.  Replace with one more sedate and the problem should go  ;D :y
The organic interface nearly malfunctioned and kacked itself, but fortunately, plenty of opportunity to go straight on  :-[


(Which is why I test brakes on that part of my test circuit)
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: TheBoy on 03 July 2011, 22:05:55
Quote
Are both Brake Light Bulbs working?  :-/

 ;)
Not checked. No warnings on GID. ABS works fine.
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: Omegatoy on 03 July 2011, 22:06:58
definetly boiled  or old fluid, change it completely, and while your there check extremely carefully for any sticking brakes,
this is the single biggest cause of boiled fluid!!
if a brake dont release properly it just continues heating the caliper and disc!!
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: TheBoy on 03 July 2011, 22:10:04
Quote
definetly boiled  or old fluid, change it completely, and while your there check extremely carefully for any sticking brakes,
this is the single biggest cause of boiled fluid!!
if a brake dont release properly it just continues heating the caliper and disc!!
Pretty certain neither of the fronts are sticky. Rears defo aren't, as I was messing about with handbrake 2 or 3 weeks ago, and checked them.
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: TheBoy on 03 July 2011, 22:12:05
Cheers guys. That definately rules out it going to The Lakes - no time to do it, plus TheDaddy has my Eezibleed, thieving git :P
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: Omegatoy on 03 July 2011, 22:15:16
check them agin just to be sure mate, you do know that brake fluid change should be carried out every 2 years minimum?
preferably annually, however 5.1 is less susceptible to hydroscopic action, i personally prefer it used it in all me track day cars as it has a higherboiling point as well,
may pay you to change to that spec fluid?

some people say it doesnt give as nice a pedal feel but it takes mins to get used to it, its been in the old tractor since ive had it and is also in the new one!! :y
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: Lazydocker on 03 July 2011, 22:19:03
Quote
check them agin just to be sure mate, you do know that brake fluid change should be carried out every 2 years minimum?
preferably annually, however 5.1 is less susceptible to hydroscopic action, i personally prefer it used it in all me track day cars as it has a higherboiling point as well,
may pay you to change to that spec fluid?

some people say it doesnt give as nice a pedal feel but it takes mins to get used to it, its been in the old tractor since ive had it and is also in the new one!! :y
I reckon the fluid in my estate was original  :o Certainly was discoloured enough and the pedal feel was dreadful all the time. Once changed out it was a great improvement :y I'll probably do it again quite soon and activate the ABS as well to get it all out ;)
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: Broomies Mate on 03 July 2011, 22:20:29
Quote
check them agin just to be sure mate, you do know that brake fluid change should be carried out every 2 years minimum?
preferably annually, however 5.1 is less susceptible to hydroscopic action, i personally prefer it used it in all me track day cars as it has a higherboiling point as well,
may pay you to change to that spec fluid?

some people say it doesnt give as nice a pedal feel but it takes mins to get used to it, its been in the old tractor since ive had it and is also in the new one!! :y

DO NOT PUT SYNTH BRAKE FLUID IN A SYSTEM WHICH ISNT DESIGNED FOR IT!  Your seals will be waving you bye bye.
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: TheBoy on 03 July 2011, 22:22:37
Quote
check them agin just to be sure mate, you do know that brake fluid change should be carried out every 2 years minimum?
preferably annually, however 5.1 is less susceptible to hydroscopic action, i personally prefer it used it in all me track day cars as it has a higherboiling point as well,
may pay you to change to that spec fluid?

some people say it doesnt give as nice a pedal feel but it takes mins to get used to it, its been in the old tractor since ive had it and is also in the new one!! :y
Yup, aware of interval :y.  Yet another example of full dealer service history ;)
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: Omegatoy on 03 July 2011, 22:23:13
Quote
Quote
check them agin just to be sure mate, you do know that brake fluid change should be carried out every 2 years minimum?
preferably annually, however 5.1 is less susceptible to hydroscopic action, i personally prefer it used it in all me track day cars as it has a higherboiling point as well,
may pay you to change to that spec fluid?

some people say it doesnt give as nice a pedal feel but it takes mins to get used to it, its been in the old tractor since ive had it and is also in the new one!! :y

DO NOT PUT SYNTH BRAKE FLUID IN A SYSTEM WHICH ISNT DESIGNED FOR IT!  Your seals will be waving you bye bye.

Rubbish!!! it has by law to be compatible with the old stuff,
a full fluid change will not in anyway shape or form hurt the braking system, i usd it in all 24v carltons, sennys even the mega omega, never had the slightest worries over it
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: biggriffin on 03 July 2011, 22:25:28
 would also check that the master cyl is ok as the seals my be u.s.
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: TheBoy on 03 July 2011, 22:31:38
Quote
would also check that the master cyl is ok as the seals my be u.s.
That would show by just pressing the pedal at standstill ?
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: Lazydocker on 03 July 2011, 22:36:54
Quote
Quote
would also check that the master cyl is ok as the seals my be u.s.
That would show by just pressing the pedal at standstill ?
Yep.

It's just the fluid boiling... Mine was the same ;)
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: Broomies Mate on 03 July 2011, 22:45:13
Quote
Quote
Quote
check them agin just to be sure mate, you do know that brake fluid change should be carried out every 2 years minimum?
preferably annually, however 5.1 is less susceptible to hydroscopic action, i personally prefer it used it in all me track day cars as it has a higherboiling point as well,
may pay you to change to that spec fluid?

some people say it doesnt give as nice a pedal feel but it takes mins to get used to it, its been in the old tractor since ive had it and is also in the new one!! :y

DO NOT PUT SYNTH BRAKE FLUID IN A SYSTEM WHICH ISNT DESIGNED FOR IT!  Your seals will be waving you bye bye.

Rubbish!!! it has by law to be compatible with the old stuff,
a full fluid change will not in anyway shape or form hurt the braking system, i usd it in all 24v carltons, sennys even the mega omega, never had the slightest worries over it

Mineral and Silicone fluids are not to be mixed.  It is my opinion that any braking system which has been using Mineral oil should remain on Mineral Oil. 

The only exception to this is where a genuine flush is possible (no deposits of mineral oil remain).
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: albitz on 03 July 2011, 23:09:07
Quote
Quote
Under extreme braking from high speed, the pedal goes to the floor.

It starts out normal for the first few seconds, but then steps down a bit, they steps down again to the floor.

The brakes were already very hot before this.


Change the fluid?  ...  ...after all, this has full Vx service history :P

Mine was the same until Albs changed the fluid :y

Fixed that for ya. :y :D ;D
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: Andy B on 03 July 2011, 23:10:30
Quote
... is less susceptible to hydroscopic action,  .....

brake fluid is hy[size=14]G[/size]roscopic.  ;)
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: Bionic on 04 July 2011, 06:56:08
Not being funny :D but is that what the term pedal to the metal means ;D
Now to be serious - When I trained as a motor mech many many years ago (was it really that many decades ago?) it was common and manufactures recommended practice to change the brake fluid every two years. Same as the antifreeze! After all it does work bloody hard during its lifetime and will deteriorate because nothing lasts forever despite the claims they tend to make. Just make sure that you use the VX recommend one!
I think that changing it will make the world of difference even though it is a ball aching job to do and it will be the least expensive option to start with but it will also give you a clean slate to start seeking other problems if there is no improvement.
GudLuk  :y
Ray
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: Kevin Wood on 04 July 2011, 11:53:05
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
check them agin just to be sure mate, you do know that brake fluid change should be carried out every 2 years minimum?
preferably annually, however 5.1 is less susceptible to hydroscopic action, i personally prefer it used it in all me track day cars as it has a higherboiling point as well,
may pay you to change to that spec fluid?

some people say it doesnt give as nice a pedal feel but it takes mins to get used to it, its been in the old tractor since ive had it and is also in the new one!! :y

DO NOT PUT SYNTH BRAKE FLUID IN A SYSTEM WHICH ISNT DESIGNED FOR IT!  Your seals will be waving you bye bye.

Rubbish!!! it has by law to be compatible with the old stuff,
a full fluid change will not in anyway shape or form hurt the braking system, i usd it in all 24v carltons, sennys even the mega omega, never had the slightest worries over it

Mineral and Silicone fluids are not to be mixed.  It is my opinion that any braking system which has been using Mineral oil should remain on Mineral Oil. 

The only exception to this is where a genuine flush is possible (no deposits of mineral oil remain).


All correct... But DOT 5.1 is a mineral fluid and completely compatible and able to be mixed with DOT 4. It's effectively the same as DOT 4 with a better specification as far as boiling point is concerned. :y

DOT 5 is the synthetic fluid. I wouldn't use this at all on a road car.
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 04 July 2011, 11:54:40
Indeed, the DOT5 will affect seals (and hence why its rarely used).

The 5.1 is ok.

And there are no specific rules that the fluids have to be backward compatible.
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: 05omegav6 on 04 July 2011, 12:49:21
5.1 over here. :y

Thought I would give it a go when I changed the discs and pads all round, as it was about due on mileage/time. Pulls up nice and sharp, with next to no fade, even after some hefty abuse :-X

Lots of dual carriageways around here that are rudely inconvenienced by roundabouts ::)

Ps can bring my ezibleed along this weekend if you want to drive gently up to the lakes. :y
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: tunnie on 04 July 2011, 15:50:52
TB being harsh with brakes? Well I never  ::)  :-X  ;D
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: Lazydocker on 04 July 2011, 15:57:37
Quote
Quote
Quote
Under extreme braking from high speed, the pedal goes to the floor.

It starts out normal for the first few seconds, but then steps down a bit, they steps down again to the floor.

The brakes were already very hot before this.


Change the fluid?  ...  ...after all, this has full Vx service history :P

Mine was the same until Albs changed the fluid :y

Fixed that for ya. :y :D ;D

I pumped the pedal ::) ::) ::)

But, once again, I'm very grateful :y :y
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: albitz on 04 July 2011, 16:18:54
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Under extreme braking from high speed, the pedal goes to the floor.

It starts out normal for the first few seconds, but then steps down a bit, they steps down again to the floor.

The brakes were already very hot before this.


Change the fluid?  ...  ...after all, this has full Vx service history :P

Mine was the same until Albs changed the fluid :y

Fixed that for ya. :y :D ;D

I pumped the pedal ::) ::) ::)

But, once again, I'm very grateful :y :y

I used to do that bit for my dad when I was 5. He regretted firing my interest though, as a short while later I nicked his car when he was having an afternoon kip.Didnt get far mind, not being able to see over the steering wheel was a bit of a hindrance. ;D ;D
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: TheBoy on 04 July 2011, 18:26:32
Quote
TB being harsh with brakes? Well I never  ::)  :-X  ;D
Is that because I have a car capable of highlighting the flaws in the "Full Service History" :P
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: TheBoy on 04 July 2011, 18:28:11
Quote
Ps can bring my ezibleed along this weekend if you want to drive gently up to the lakes. :y
No need - given the misfire isn't confirmed as resolved, I'll be taking the Silver Bullet instead.

Besides, TheDaddy said he'd leave my kit, that he borrowed, on my desk, so I should have it tomorrow :y
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: Omegatoy on 04 July 2011, 22:04:27
who brought up synthetic fluid anyway? i said dot 5.1 in my post???? :y
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: Broomies Mate on 04 July 2011, 22:06:46
Quote
who brought up synthetic fluid anyway? i said dot 5.1 in my post???? :y

And I stand erected!  ;D  My apologies, for some stupid reason I thought 5.1 was also Synth.  :'(
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: Omegatoy on 04 July 2011, 22:33:00
Quote
Quote
who brought up synthetic fluid anyway? i said dot 5.1 in my post???? :y

And I stand erected!  ;D  My apologies, for some stupid reason I thought 5.1 was also Synth.  :'(

no worries bud, I knew it was safe to use from the umpteen cars i had put it on!! :y
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: Broomies Mate on 04 July 2011, 22:41:40
Quote
Quote
Quote
who brought up synthetic fluid anyway? i said dot 5.1 in my post???? :y

And I stand erected!  ;D  My apologies, for some stupid reason I thought 5.1 was also Synth.  :'(

no worries bud, I knew it was safe to use from the umpteen cars i had put it on!! :y

I'll be honest and admit to 'having' to add DOT5 to my car a few months back.  I had a leaking nipple (oooh errr) but wasn't aware until the warning light came on about 150miles from home.  I immediately pulled over and checked the fluid level which was low.  I continues for another 20miles or so and pulled over again to check and the reservoir was damn near empty.  The closest garage ONLY had Synthetic DOT5 fluid.  It was a Motorway Services and cost about £12 for a tiny bottle  >:(

Topped up and got home.  Replaced the nipple and then replaced the fluid with Eezibleed and about a gallon of DOT4..... all seems to be ok so far!  :y
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: mrgreen on 04 July 2011, 23:43:46
seems to be boiling fluid! over here they do a test on the fluid at m.o.t time do they do that over there? anyway mine came back o.k but i'm still not so sure as the brakes scare me sometimes, oh and as for brake boil i was helping a mate out fix up his car for m.o.t and it needed a back box so while it was on the lift asked the muppet to tighten the handbrake adjuster and lo and behold my mate reported back a week later coming off the slip ramp of the m4 he had no brakes!!!!, well there's a good way to get binding brakes! take it to kwikfit!, but anyway it passed the m. o.t!
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: Andy B on 04 July 2011, 23:52:46
Quote
.... do they do that over there?  ....

No  ;)
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: Omegatoy on 05 July 2011, 08:32:24
I believe its coming in though!!
Title: Re: Brake pedal hits the floor
Post by: Lazydocker on 05 July 2011, 09:02:00
Quote
I believe its coming in though!!

And so it should!

Although a lot of people aren't demanding enough on the braking system to boil the fluid, that one emergency situation could be enough to have very severe consequences