Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: TheBoy on 01 February 2008, 14:12:21
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Thought it may be HG, not so sure now.
Seems to be a coolant leak from somewhere around the back of the block. Doesn't appear to be from coolant pipe as far as i can see. Seems to collect on g/b before dripping down sump.
Can't seen to locate it, and now just put my shoulder out :(
Anyone know what else is behind there?
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Thought it may be HG, not so sure now.
Seems to be a coolant leak from somewhere around the back of the block. Doesn't appear to be from coolant pipe as far as i can see. Seems to collect on g/b before dripping down sump.
Can't seen to locate it, and now just put my shoulder out :(
Anyone know what else is behind there?
There is a coolant transfer pipe, runs from the waterpump, around the back of the block, and over the bellhousing towards the front, to which it connects to the Rad Hose...
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Thought it may be HG, not so sure now.
Seems to be a coolant leak from somewhere around the back of the block. Doesn't appear to be from coolant pipe as far as i can see. Seems to collect on g/b before dripping down sump.
Can't seen to locate it, and now just put my shoulder out :(
Anyone know what else is behind there?
There is a coolant transfer pipe, runs from the waterpump, around the back of the block, and over the bellhousing towards the front, to which it connects to the Rad Hose...
Thats the coolant pipe it doesn't appear to be
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yes theres a few pipes there, one being metal and prone to corrosion...
Ive a few of these engines in the garage, let me look tonight and photograph if required..?
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Just found a post I made from when we had a 1.8 freelander and seemed to be a not uncommon problem with K series. May help
We recently had problem with leak from expansion tank hose where it joins main coolant rail in T joint. Perished pipe end not water tight with jubilee clip holding it on. Only leaked after engine and coolant properly warmed up. Loss of coolant was almost not noticable but always chance it can get lot worse quickly. Only noticed on those rare days duing the winter that it didn't rain ! The coolant was running along coolant rail dripping onto engine bay plate and fiinishing up on floor about 2ft from where it was actually coming from!
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yes theres a few pipes there, one being metal and prone to corrosion...
Ive a few of these engines in the garage, let me look tonight and photograph if required..?
That would be excellent :y
Left it idling for an hour, no more coolant dripping, but possibly it evapourates before dripping? Only drip was from exhaust join near backbox. Revving it spat a bit of water out the exhaust, I guess the full exhaust wasn't heating enough to stop condensation build up, rather than coolant getting in exhaust?
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Just found a post I made from when we had a 1.8 freelander and seemed to be a not uncommon problem with K series. May help
We recently had problem with leak from expansion tank hose where it joins main coolant rail in T joint. Perished pipe end not water tight with jubilee clip holding it on. Only leaked after engine and coolant properly warmed up. Loss of coolant was almost not noticable but always chance it can get lot worse quickly. Only noticed on those rare days duing the winter that it didn't rain ! The coolant was running along coolant rail dripping onto engine bay plate and fiinishing up on floor about 2ft from where it was actually coming from!
Thanks. I did check that earlier. Although doesn't look the best connection, it seems dry, as does the entire metal coolant pipe from stat to bleed screw/top hose. No easy to see around there, even from underneath with a mirror. And I've done my shoulder in (old injury from ZX10 acrobatics), so cant get into contorted shapes.
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Thought it may be HG, not so sure now.
Seems to be a coolant leak from somewhere around the back of the block. Doesn't appear to be from coolant pipe as far as i can see. Seems to collect on g/b before dripping down sump.
Can't seen to locate it, and now just put my shoulder out :(
Anyone know what else is behind there?
If it has a plastic inlet manifold there is a rubber O ring type gasket to seal the manifold onto the block, looks like the Audi logo. They cost about a fiver and can give the same symtoms as a head gasket problem. The K series engine in our 20 years of experience is an absolute disaster, ever wondered why adverts for Rovers sometimes say " Honda Engine ". We have seen them with blown head gaskets at 4 and 5 thousand miles. If you are fixing this as a paid job please tell the customer that you cannot guarantee the work as it will only last about 6 months. If you do change the head gasket have a look at the Land Rover Freelander 1.8 petrol, they have introduced their own modified gasket as the Rover one is not up to the job. Type of antifreeze is also vital, as always. We reckon that the real problem is the design of the engine and in particular the location of the head bolts, too far away from the edge of the block.
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Was just about to say, IIRC there's water heating around the inlet manifold / throttle body, and probably a water connection or two that pass through the inlet manifold-to-head gasket.
Might be worth trying to pressurise the system cold (schrader valve in an old length of heater hose or expansion tank cap) if it seals up when hot.
Kevin
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Thought it may be HG, not so sure now.
Seems to be a coolant leak from somewhere around the back of the block. Doesn't appear to be from coolant pipe as far as i can see. Seems to collect on g/b before dripping down sump.
Can't seen to locate it, and now just put my shoulder out :(
Anyone know what else is behind there?
If it has a plastic inlet manifold there is a rubber O ring type gasket to seal the manifold onto the block, looks like the Audi logo. They cost about a fiver and can give the same symtoms as a head gasket problem. The K series engine in our 20 years of experience is an absolute disaster, ever wondered why adverts for Rovers sometimes say " Honda Engine ". We have seen them with blown head gaskets at 4 and 5 thousand miles. If you are fixing this as a paid job please tell the customer that you cannot guarantee the work as it will only last about 6 months. If you do change the head gasket have a look at the Land Rover Freelander 1.8 petrol, they have introduced their own modified gasket as the Rover one is not up to the job. Type of antifreeze is also vital, as always. We reckon that the real problem is the design of the engine and in particular the location of the head bolts, too far away from the edge of the block.
This is my car, HG down a year ago, about 12/14k
I'm fairly certain its not HG.
The K series suffers because it was an early all ali engine with a tiny cooling system. The ali block to head with gasket combination is good to about 900C before a reaction takes place. Combustion temps around 1200C. The tiniest glitch on cooling system seems to be what causes the problems, hence why modified HG make only slight differences.
It should have been retired years ago, as as a very early design of this type, there were lessons to be learned.
However, when even now, it embarrases Ford's equivilent Zetec, and Vauxhall's Ecotec, Rover (and Landrover, and Lotus) still think there is life lift in it.
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The inlet to head rubber gasket (green iirc) was changed last year when we did the head. Don't recall coolant system there, but could be wrong
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The inlet to head rubber gasket (green iirc) was changed last year when we did the head. Don't recall coolant system there, but could be wrong
I remember on an early K series with a metal inlet manifold it had coolant flow, but I don't THINK that's the case with the plastic ones like yours...
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The inlet to head rubber gasket (green iirc) was changed last year when we did the head. Don't recall coolant system there, but could be wrong
I remember on an early K series with a metal inlet manifold it had coolant flow, but I don't THINK that's the case with the plastic ones like yours...
need to check in daylight again, too dark/cold to start looking now. Plus I'm off to ABS meet shortly, as soon as this stupid linux box gets a grip and starts to respond (load average 170 :o)
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well from someone who does these headgaskets on a weekly basis (i kid you not!) inlet manifold can crack, the manifold gasket can fail, waterpump leaks were the stat housing pushes into the back of it (1 o ring). the two bigproblems with these engines are the stat sticks shut,boils the water and screws the headgasket or the bypass pipe from the cylinder head(by the dipstick tube) back to the header tank blocks up so you get no flow round the engine with the same results.. we have done the h/g on a 3000mile old MGtf but also have a few 200 and 400s running about with 130,000/140,000 miles on them and never been touched!! sometimes no rhyme or reason with this engine!!! >:(
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well from someone who does these headgaskets on a weekly basis (i kid you not!) inlet manifold can crack, the manifold gasket can fail, waterpump leaks were the stat housing pushes into the back of it (1 o ring). the two bigproblems with these engines are the stat sticks shut,boils the water and screws the headgasket or the bypass pipe from the cylinder head(by the dipstick tube) back to the header tank blocks up so you get no flow round the engine with the same results.. we have done the h/g on a 3000mile old MGtf but also have a few 200 and 400s running about with 130,000/140,000 miles on them and never been touched!! sometimes no rhyme or reason with this engine!!! >:(
Totally agree. The only Rovers worth buying are diesels and the v6's.
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well from someone who does these headgaskets on a weekly basis (i kid you not!) inlet manifold can crack, the manifold gasket can fail, waterpump leaks were the stat housing pushes into the back of it (1 o ring). the two bigproblems with these engines are the stat sticks shut,boils the water and screws the headgasket or the bypass pipe from the cylinder head(by the dipstick tube) back to the header tank blocks up so you get no flow round the engine with the same results.. we have done the h/g on a 3000mile old MGtf but also have a few 200 and 400s running about with 130,000/140,000 miles on them and never been touched!! sometimes no rhyme or reason with this engine!!! >:(
Totally agree. The only Rovers worth buying are diesels and the v6's.
The KV6 is probably worse than the inline K for HG reliability...
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well from someone who does these headgaskets on a weekly basis (i kid you not!) inlet manifold can crack, the manifold gasket can fail, waterpump leaks were the stat housing pushes into the back of it (1 o ring). the two bigproblems with these engines are the stat sticks shut,boils the water and screws the headgasket or the bypass pipe from the cylinder head(by the dipstick tube) back to the header tank blocks up so you get no flow round the engine with the same results.. we have done the h/g on a 3000mile old MGtf but also have a few 200 and 400s running about with 130,000/140,000 miles on them and never been touched!! sometimes no rhyme or reason with this engine!!! >:(
The homework I've done (and I have some contacts ;)) seem to point to HG failing if the cooling system glitches for any reason, due to the really tight tolerances on the temp between block/gasket/head join.
I think the reason mine lasted 72k is due to my paranoia with it, and keeping cooling system utterly tip-top.
As to the leak, I would have to say its leaking from the top hose to stat metal pipe, but just cannot locate it.
I think I might have to see if I can get it cold pressurised....
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that pipe is bolted to the block by two 8mm headed bolts your leak will be around one of these bolt hole brackets................. ;)
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The other issue with the K series is that the thermostat is in the bottom rad. hose to promote quick warm-up but it means the engine can overshoot normal running temperature and then get shock cooled several times before the system reaches an equilibrium with the thermostat partially open.
I have heard that there are issues with the location of the liners and head and accuracy of the deck heights on the liners but I'm not sure if they are things that become apparent when tuning them (which most of my K series owning mates have done) or as standard. There are also a lot of myths and urban legends floating around regarding the HGF problems, some of which I may have regurgitated above. :-[
It remains a great engine for its weight. If only Rover had had the funds to take it from the prototypes we have now to a production version we would be laughing. I have at least one mate who has been running a 230BHP K series for many years with the scholar conversion with no problems whatsoever. He does spank it some too (to 8K or more).
Apparently the shock cooling issue is worse on the MGF due to the long runs of pipe between rad. and engine.
Kevin
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every k series i have ever seen has the stat bolted behind the waterpump housing? (in line 4). since 1989 when introduced i have never seen a liner move! . have seen a few bent con rods and pistons, the good thing is you just replace the damaged liner (£25) agreed the engine in it self does put out quite a lot of power and does rev!! hence the kit car boys liking them. god knows how but the design won the queens award to industry in 1991!! but still the head gaskets go......
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that pipe is bolted to the block by two 8mm headed bolts your leak will be around one of these bolt hole brackets................. ;)
Yes, that was what I was expecting. But I can't find any wet there. Guess I need to take it off and visually inspect. I'm guessing I need to take intake manifold off?
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every k series i have ever seen has the stat bolted behind the waterpump housing?
Yes. If you look at the way the coolant flows the thermostat is positioned where the cold water returns to the water pump from the rad. bottom hose. So, engine warms up, bypass plumbing routes the hot water around the base of the thermostat until it opens and then the thermostat is doused on stone cold water from the radiator so it shuts again. The result is that this cycle repeats and the cooling fluctuates wildly until the rad. is hot enough that the returning water doesn't slam the thermostat shut.
Kevin
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every k series i have ever seen has the stat bolted behind the waterpump housing? (in line 4). since 1989 when introduced i have never seen a liner move! . have seen a few bent con rods and pistons, the good thing is you just replace the damaged liner (£25) agreed the engine in it self does put out quite a lot of power and does rev!! hence the kit car boys liking them. god knows how but the design won the queens award to industry in 1991!! but still the head gaskets go......
Agreed, it needed further development to overcome its issues. However, BMW were trying to milk Rover, hence no development money went in (to anything until too late). Obviously, Powertrain had no money to develop after the BMW sell-off, so the lump never got the development it badly needed.
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every k series i have ever seen has the stat bolted behind the waterpump housing? (in line 4). since 1989 when introduced i have never seen a liner move! . have seen a few bent con rods and pistons, the good thing is you just replace the damaged liner (£25) agreed the engine in it self does put out quite a lot of power and does rev!! hence the kit car boys liking them. god knows how but the design won the queens award to industry in 1991!! but still the head gaskets go......
Agreed, it needed further development to overcome its issues. However, BMW were trying to milk Rover, hence no development money went in (to anything until too late). Obviously, Powertrain had no money to develop after the BMW sell-off, so the lump never got the development it badly needed.
You cant blame BMW for this one...........the K series pre-dates BMW by many years..............it should NEVER have been released as it was but, Rover were desperate.......they were still mainly using the naff A and B series engines!
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every k series i have ever seen has the stat bolted behind the waterpump housing? (in line 4). since 1989 when introduced i have never seen a liner move! . have seen a few bent con rods and pistons, the good thing is you just replace the damaged liner (£25) agreed the engine in it self does put out quite a lot of power and does rev!! hence the kit car boys liking them. god knows how but the design won the queens award to industry in 1991!! but still the head gaskets go......
Agreed, it needed further development to overcome its issues. However, BMW were trying to milk Rover, hence no development money went in (to anything until too late). Obviously, Powertrain had no money to develop after the BMW sell-off, so the lump never got the development it badly needed.
You cant blame BMW for this one...........the K series pre-dates BMW by many years..............it should NEVER have been released as it was but, Rover were desperate.......they were still mainly using the naff A and B series engines!
Yes, Rover design through and through. Probably the only reason it won the design award ;)
However, it became apparent that it needed extra development, which BMW pulled the plug on.
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that pipe is bolted to the block by two 8mm headed bolts your leak will be around one of these bolt hole brackets................. ;)
Yes, that was what I was expecting. But I can't find any wet there. Guess I need to take it off and visually inspect. I'm guessing I need to take intake manifold off?
Yep, inlet of, it pretty easy - as usual with cars some pesky to get to bolts....
I will take that pic, when i can get into garage - its frozen over...
Oh and i probably have some pare parts around there - so if you identify the issue drop me a pm :y
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every k series i have ever seen has the stat bolted behind the waterpump housing? (in line 4). since 1989 when introduced i have never seen a liner move! . have seen a few bent con rods and pistons, the good thing is you just replace the damaged liner (£25) agreed the engine in it self does put out quite a lot of power and does rev!! hence the kit car boys liking them. god knows how but the design won the queens award to industry in 1991!! but still the head gaskets go......
Agreed, it needed further development to overcome its issues. However, BMW were trying to milk Rover, hence no development money went in (to anything until too late). Obviously, Powertrain had no money to develop after the BMW sell-off, so the lump never got the development it badly needed.
You cant blame BMW for this one...........the K series pre-dates BMW by many years..............it should NEVER have been released as it was but, Rover were desperate.......they were still mainly using the naff A and B series engines!
Yes, Rover design through and through. Probably the only reason it won the design award ;)
However, it became apparent that it needed extra development, which BMW pulled the plug on.
Er no.....Rover brought it into use to soon....it should never have reached the market in the guise its in.
Its yet another example of why Rover is no more.....no continual development, half cocked attempts at catchup.........all adds up to bye bye Rover.
They are the route cause of thier own demise.
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you can get the coolant pipe off without removing the inlet manifold but it needs to go up in the air on a ramp? ps . we have been using the new "shim" type head gasket for about 12mths now and we have yet to have one fail.................. :question
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every k series i have ever seen has the stat bolted behind the waterpump housing? (in line 4). since 1989 when introduced i have never seen a liner move! . have seen a few bent con rods and pistons, the good thing is you just replace the damaged liner (£25) agreed the engine in it self does put out quite a lot of power and does rev!! hence the kit car boys liking them. god knows how but the design won the queens award to industry in 1991!! but still the head gaskets go......
Agreed, it needed further development to overcome its issues. However, BMW were trying to milk Rover, hence no development money went in (to anything until too late). Obviously, Powertrain had no money to develop after the BMW sell-off, so the lump never got the development it badly needed.
You cant blame BMW for this one...........the K series pre-dates BMW by many years..............it should NEVER have been released as it was but, Rover were desperate.......they were still mainly using the naff A and B series engines!
Yes, Rover design through and through. Probably the only reason it won the design award ;)
However, it became apparent that it needed extra development, which BMW pulled the plug on.
Er no.....Rover brought it into use to soon....it should never have reached the market in the guise its in.
Its yet another example of why Rover is no more.....no continual development, half cocked attempts at catchup.........all adds up to bye bye Rover.
They are the route cause of thier own demise.
If you are talking about the old school Austen/BL Rover, then yes, you are of course absolutely correct. Release junk thinking everyone would buy whatever.
However if you are talking the later Aerospace era, esp during the tie in with Honda, a very different mentality came in to the company at the management level. Rover were heading in the right direction when partnered by Honda, and became profitable, even cited as a serious competitor to BMW. Development was happening, mainly in partnership with Honda. The BMW buyout meant the Honda partnership halted fairly abruptly, and with no further money to replace the 'lost' development capabilities was the big nail. It would appear BMW had no real interest in Rover, they were interested in knowledge (mass production knowledge and 4x4 technology). Remember, although the figures have never been released, BMW made a decent profit from the Rover saga. The 75 was the only new car released in this time was the 75. The other cars, BMW retained and morphed in to what we now know as the BMW 1 Series. Obviously the Mini became the BMW Mini. Any capital investment went in to the sites that BMW kept after the sell off - Oxford, Swindon, and the engine plant where the K was made. This is from people involved during this period.
In the specific case of the K, I am told no specific problems were found during the testing phase of the engine. The engine is basically sound with the exception of the HG issue. It became apparent by early 90s that the HG was failing. BMW cut K series development pretty much straight away. The only engine with any BMW money was the (good in its day) 2.0l diesel. The K desperately needed some work to overcome its flaw, and the people involved thought it would be fairly simple fix it (but would involve retooling to modify the block).
Even after the sell-off, when BMW owned the K series (before selling back to Phoenix later), no further development was done. The BMW Mini was designed to use this power plant (before changing (Chrysler?) for 'non technical' reasons).
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Of course, BL/Rover/BMW/Phoenix biggest problem always was Longbridge. Whilst that place was open, build quality and productivity was always going to be an issue.
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you can get the coolant pipe off without removing the inlet manifold but it needs to go up in the air on a ramp? ps . we have been using the new "shim" type head gasket for about 12mths now and we have yet to have one fail.................. :question
I have heard of the modified freelander ones failing. Not sure if thats what you mean be 'shim' type
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you can get the coolant pipe off without removing the inlet manifold but it needs to go up in the air on a ramp? ps . we have been using the new "shim" type head gasket for about 12mths now and we have yet to have one fail.................. :question
I have heard of the modified freelander ones failing. Not sure if thats what you mean be 'shim' type
think this is post 2002 or replacement only...
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you can get the coolant pipe off without removing the inlet manifold but it needs to go up in the air on a ramp? ps . we have been using the new "shim" type head gasket for about 12mths now and we have yet to have one fail.................. :question
I have heard of the modified freelander ones failing. Not sure if thats what you mean be 'shim' type
think this is post 2002 or replacement only...
If the shim type mentioned is the same as the modified freelander one, yes they are still failing...
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Anyway, so are we saying that the only possible coolant leak round the back has to come from that metal transfer pipe? Seeing as no dealers now, would factors sell them?
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Anyway, so are we saying that the only possible coolant leak round the back has to come from that metal transfer pipe? Seeing as no dealers now, would factors sell them?
theres a few other rubber pipes in that area, also thermostat/ housing at back left hand side....
didnt you have a go at removing that inlet?
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Anyway, so are we saying that the only possible coolant leak round the back has to come from that metal transfer pipe? Seeing as no dealers now, would factors sell them?
Try Luffield at Loughborough, they used to be Rover dealers and still, as far as i am aware, supply parts :y
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no dealers?? you can still get the bits! rover sold off the parts business about 6yrs ago to "cat" yep the same "catapiler" that make your boots and giant earth moving machines. the company is called x part and they continue to source parts from the same place longbridge did. most things can be had if not you have a bit of a wait ! going back to your problem the headgasket can leak water or a pinhole in the alluminium head but i would still go for the pipe? beg steal or borrow a pressure test kit if you can? :y
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Anyway, so are we saying that the only possible coolant leak round the back has to come from that metal transfer pipe? Seeing as no dealers now, would factors sell them?
theres a few other rubber pipes in that area, also thermostat/ housing at back left hand side....
didnt you have a go at removing that inlet?
I was going to remove inlet when I can borrow a dry garage (probably this w/e), and wanted to have a spare when I did it. Not much else around there from a pipework point of view that I can see, but bow to your expertise :y
Would the stat housing be likely to leak
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Anyway, so are we saying that the only possible coolant leak round the back has to come from that metal transfer pipe? Seeing as no dealers now, would factors sell them?
theres a few other rubber pipes in that area, also thermostat/ housing at back left hand side....
didnt you have a go at removing that inlet?
I was going to remove inlet when I can borrow a dry garage (probably this w/e), and wanted to have a spare when I did it. Not much else around there from a pipework point of view that I can see, but bow to your expertise :y
Would the stat housing be likely to leak
Stat housing is down by the water pump, behind the rear cambelt cover..
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Anyway, so are we saying that the only possible coolant leak round the back has to come from that metal transfer pipe? Seeing as no dealers now, would factors sell them?
theres a few other rubber pipes in that area, also thermostat/ housing at back left hand side....
didnt you have a go at removing that inlet?
I was going to remove inlet when I can borrow a dry garage (probably this w/e), and wanted to have a spare when I did it. Not much else around there from a pipework point of view that I can see, but bow to your expertise :y
Would the stat housing be likely to leak
Stat housing is down by the water pump, behind the rear cambelt cover..
Yes, I know, and tbh, thats not where its collecting. But are they prone to leaks?
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Anyway, so are we saying that the only possible coolant leak round the back has to come from that metal transfer pipe? Seeing as no dealers now, would factors sell them?
theres a few other rubber pipes in that area, also thermostat/ housing at back left hand side....
didnt you have a go at removing that inlet?
I was going to remove inlet when I can borrow a dry garage (probably this w/e), and wanted to have a spare when I did it. Not much else around there from a pipework point of view that I can see, but bow to your expertise :y
Would the stat housing be likely to leak
Stat housing is down by the water pump, behind the rear cambelt cover..
Yes, I know, and tbh, thats not where its collecting. But are they prone to leaks?
No more than any other thermostate.
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the stat itself has a rubber seal round it and that can leak, have never seen a cracked housing but allways a first time??. stat can be removed from housing (3- 8mm bolts) or the easy way is to remove the pipe you think is leaking then unbolt the stat housing from rear of waterpump/block and look at the lot on the bench :y
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To be honest i havent really had many issues with coolant leaks in that area.
Its one of those the human eye will determine more..remind me again what area you think its coming from..i know from the back end but how far down the back and left right or central?
I have most of the parts from that neck of the woods in the garage to be honest so if you can pinpoint anything i will fire it down in the mail...
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To be honest i havent really had many issues with coolant leaks in that area.
Its one of those the human eye will determine more..remind me again what area you think its coming from..i know from the back end but how far down the back and left right or central?
I have most of the parts from that neck of the woods in the garage to be honest so if you can pinpoint anything i will fire it down in the mail...
I cannot find any leak running down the back of the block, its just pooling above gearbox/sump area. Only pipework I can see above this area is the metal pipe.
Saying that, the coolant level hasn't moved over last couple of days.....