Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega Electrical and Audio Help => Topic started by: kevpuk on 16 February 2009, 15:20:53
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Out this afternoon, and my NCDC2013 seems to have developed some gremlins :-[
For starters, seems that most functions shortly revert to the Main screen - see symptoms below :
1) I cannot select Tuner, even though the tuner is playing and I can swap stations with numbered presets, arrow keys and steering controls. Similarly, can swap through bands too. Just cannot get the CID to display the Tuner screen
2) Cannot select Nav functions - although sometimes one of the various screens comes up for a second or so then reverts to overall Main screen. That said, hit the navigate to Home button (green one) and the navigation kicked in with directions both voice and turn indicators on Main screen Info button also does nothing, except once flashed up on pressing then reverted to Main screen
3) Can select CDC screen and CDs controllable, but most button presses thereafter mean reverting to Main screen
4) BC button works usually, although also sometimes reverts to Main screen
5) CD button works - tells me non-audio CD inserted (as it should) and then reverts to Main screen
6) Tone controls button does nothins
7) Main screen displays range as normal - initially, displayed nothing else like what radio station was playing even though could hear radio. Also states Navi Inactive the whole time, even when (as mentioned above) the route home was being navigated
So, very confused >:( Is there some kind of reset that can be done ? Anyone experienced similar ? Reasons/suggestions/advice greatly appreciated......
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most bizarre.
I have spent an awful lot of time and money messing about with these Siemens units, never seen anything like that.
Initially, I would disconnect it for a couple of hours, then reconnect for a full reset. After that, I would consider removing front panel (bit delicate) and look for damage on PCB behind.
Or get a live data test done on it to see if it thinks there are stuck buttons etc.
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most bizarre.
I have spent an awful lot of time and money messing about with these Siemens units, never seen anything like that.
Initially, I would disconnect it for a couple of hours, then reconnect for a full reset. After that, I would consider removing front panel (bit delicate) and look for damage on PCB behind.
Or get a live data test done on it to see if it thinks there are stuck buttons etc.
Well the good news is that I got in the car to drive to work around 2hrs after what shall be known as 'the incident' and all seems fine again :y
Worry is that this is 'first contact' with an evil siemens gremlin :D
For a reset, is that a battery disconnect job ? Or do I need to pull the unit out and unplug......haven't got removal tool, so hoping not...(oh, and am somewhat cack-handed too !)
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radio removal easiest, but do battery if you're more confident
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is it worth holding clear for 6 seconds? It should reset.
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Most Philips stereos around that era are full of software bugs - easiest thing to do is remove the stereo for a couple of hours allowing everyhing to fully discharge internally, refit and let it boot up completely from cold - usually resets everything
Were Philips the forerunners of Microsoft ?
:y
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Most Philips stereos around that era are full of software bugs - easiest thing to do is remove the stereo for a couple of hours allowing everyhing to fully discharge internally, refit and let it boot up completely from cold - usually resets everything
Were Philips the forerunners of Microsoft ?
:y
Bit confused :o isn't this unit Siemens ? Or is it re-badged Philips then ?
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Most Philips stereos around that era are full of software bugs - easiest thing to do is remove the stereo for a couple of hours allowing everyhing to fully discharge internally, refit and let it boot up completely from cold - usually resets everything
Were Philips the forerunners of Microsoft ?
:y
Siemens, designed before they took over philips.
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Well, my drive home showed a gremlin again :(
SatNav seems to have 'jammed' on a spot about 1 mile into my journey. All other functions (BC, CDC and tuner working fine) but not the Info button (half-ar5ed approximation which never chenges) and when trying to plot route to home it gave a garbled direction indicator.
Worth noting that the system shows green GPS indicator, which - per usual - goes yellow/red under bridges etc.
So, seems GPS feed is working, but map/position all wrong ?
I am wondering whether the disc is iffy (2001 version) and this could be causing the problems - perhaps for the whole unit ?
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Have you tried using the other functions with no CD in at all ??? Sat nav won't work but might eliminate the problem ?? Seems to me it could be locking up whilst trying to read a scratched/dirty disc ?
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Seems to me it could be locking up whilst trying to read a scratched/dirty disc ?
This is what I am starting to suspect......tbh, though, all other functions are fine now....further analysis required.
Can one get a cheap version (I guess that means older !) of the CDs ? Don't really want to spend £50+ on a latest version - a 2001/2/3 etc disc will do fine !
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is it worth holding clear for 6 seconds? It should reset.
Hello? ::) Answer? yes it is!
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is it worth holding clear for 6 seconds? It should reset.
Hello? ::) Answer? yes it is!
Tried this on the way home....didn't notice anything happen at all :-/
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is it worth holding clear for 6 seconds? It should reset.
Hello? ::) Answer? yes it is!
Tried this on the way home....didn't notice anything happen at all :-/
It is there to reset the nav when stroppy among other things. Maybe press Main for 6 seconds or longer to enter service menus then clear for 6 or longer to exit/re start. Works on mine. Nothing happens until the button is released, if held long enough. Had to do it today with another experimental verbatum disc, it got stuck in enter address. On re start it spat the disc out, it had 2 tiny scratches, later showed clean disc error.
Siemens have been on my gay list for a while now.
(imho)
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is it worth holding clear for 6 seconds? It should reset.
Hello? ::) Answer? yes it is!
Tried this on the way home....didn't notice anything happen at all :-/
It is there to reset the nav when stroppy among other things. Maybe press Main for 6 seconds or longer to enter service menus then clear for 6 or longer to exit/re start. Works on mine. Nothing happens until the button is released, if held long enough. Had to do it today with another experimental verbatum disc, it got stuck in enter address. On re start it spat the disc out, it had 2 tiny scratches, later showed clean disc error.
Siemens have been on my gay list for a while now.
(imho)
Cool, thx, will try this in the morning :)
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is it worth holding clear for 6 seconds? It should reset.
Hello? ::) Answer? yes it is!
Tried this on the way home....didn't notice anything happen at all :-/
It is there to reset the nav when stroppy among other things. Maybe press Main for 6 seconds or longer to enter service menus then clear for 6 or longer to exit/re start. Works on mine. Nothing happens until the button is released, if held long enough. Had to do it today with another experimental verbatum disc, it got stuck in enter address. On re start it spat the disc out, it had 2 tiny scratches, later showed clean disc error.
Siemens have been on my gay list for a while now.
(imho)
Your laser is on it's last legs mate, not helped by using the 'acquired' disk. If you put an original disc back in now it *may* be ok.
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is it worth holding clear for 6 seconds? It should reset.
Hello? ::) Answer? yes it is!
Tried this on the way home....didn't notice anything happen at all :-/
It is there to reset the nav when stroppy among other things. Maybe press Main for 6 seconds or longer to enter service menus then clear for 6 or longer to exit/re start. Works on mine. Nothing happens until the button is released, if held long enough. Had to do it today with another experimental verbatum disc, it got stuck in enter address. On re start it spat the disc out, it had 2 tiny scratches, later showed clean disc error.
Siemens have been on my gay list for a while now.
(imho)
Your laser is on it's last legs mate, not helped by using the 'acquired' disk. If you put an original disc back in now it *may* be ok.
I am keeping use to minimum for that reason.
"That" disc plays no problem at all and is spotless on the playing surface. Any cd or original disc is fine even with scratches. But any writeable disc MUST be spotless it seems. :-(
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is it worth holding clear for 6 seconds? It should reset.
Hello? ::) Answer? yes it is!
That will only perform a "soft reset" In many cases where the unit has failed due to software problems, the only real way of resetting it is to remove the power completely and start again.
However, in this case, I think the unit may be "freexing" due to the laser not reading the disc correctly, and the unit is waiting for the data. New laser would be my suggestion next.
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New laser would be my suggestion next.
What sort of costs involved ?
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New laser would be my suggestion next.
What sort of costs involved ?
About 20-30 for the part and half an hour or so to fit (did one recently)
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New laser would be my suggestion next.
What sort of costs involved ?
About 20-30 for the part and half an hour or so to fit (did one recently)
Not too scary then, having just weighed out on Cambelt kit, cam cover gasket, ignition leads, ABS/TC ECU and so on, there seems to be a lot less money in my wallet :o
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New laser would be my suggestion next.
What sort of costs involved ?
About 20-30 for the part and half an hour or so to fit (did one recently)
I have a spare laser and also I think Mark has also found another supplier :y)
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New laser would be my suggestion next.
What sort of costs involved ?
About 20-30 for the part and half an hour or so to fit (did one recently)
I have a spare laser and also I think Mark has also found another supplier :y)
May well be interested......but would need to find someone near me to 'install' ?
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New laser would be my suggestion next.
What sort of costs involved ?
About 20-30 for the part and half an hour or so to fit (did one recently)
I have a spare laser and also I think Mark has also found another supplier :y)
May well be interested......but would need to find someone near me to 'install' ?
Easiest option would be to remove the headunit and ship it!
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Guess so....or is it a simple enough 'fit' for someone of an elctronics persuasion ? My dad is a whizz with all such things, and if it is a question of disconnecting one and connecting in a replacement, or a modicum of soldering he might be the guy ?
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Guess so....or is it a simple enough 'fit' for someone of an elctronics persuasion ? My dad is a whizz with all such things, and if it is a question of disconnecting one and connecting in a replacement, or a modicum of soldering he might be the guy ?
Needs some sort of alignment / tracking (so i'm guessing a 'scope is required).
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Guess so....or is it a simple enough 'fit' for someone of an elctronics persuasion ? My dad is a whizz with all such things, and if it is a question of disconnecting one and connecting in a replacement, or a modicum of soldering he might be the guy ?
Needs some sort of alignment / tracking (so i'm guessing a 'scope is required).
Nope, not on this unit.....fit and go
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Guess so....or is it a simple enough 'fit' for someone of an elctronics persuasion ? My dad is a whizz with all such things, and if it is a question of disconnecting one and connecting in a replacement, or a modicum of soldering he might be the guy ?
Needs some sort of alignment / tracking (so i'm guessing a 'scope is required).
Nope, not on this unit.....fit and go
Even better! :y
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What you actually setup on the older units is the control loops.....and maybe the laser power (this is sometimes directly or by setting the responsivity of the BFD)
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@ MDTM - So is it an 'easy' fit ?
@ VXL V6 - How many pennies would sir be looking for on the part ?
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@ MDTM - So is it an 'easy' fit ?
@ VXL V6 - How many pennies would sir be looking for on the part ?
Think I paid about £30 ea for them. The UK stockist is slightly cheaper but looks to be out of stock at the moment.
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Update : So I tried a regular CD in the single CD slot and it played perfectly - actually, it was a CD-R, so even more surprising.....took the disc out and put the Navteq back in.....found my position quickly, plotted a route home, and then it all got confused again :(
To me, this tends to suggest the disc is causing the problems, as the laser has no issue with a different CD ?
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Update : So I tried a regular CD in the single CD slot and it played perfectly - actually, it was a CD-R, so even more surprising.....took the disc out and put the Navteq back in.....found my position quickly, plotted a route home, and then it all got confused again :(
To me, this tends to suggest the disc is causing the problems, as the laser has no issue with a different CD ?
One thing reading audio, completely another to read data.
However, is it given you the wrong location, or just locking up?
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It seems to find the correct location and then gets confused/locks up....example this evening was it got my works car park location bang on and lasted about 30secs or so off campus before no longer really working
From then on, seems to not update location/map. Interestingly, when tapping into the diagnostic screens (per chrisgixer's tip of holding down Main etc. for 6+ secs) I can see continually updating satnav info. By this, I mean that pressing Info continues to show same N & W coordinates, but the diag screens are clearly continually updating.
Methinks this suggests GPS itself is working, corrrectly reading and the NCDC itself is processing, just the maps/navigation side of things is not functioning - therefore disc/reading of disc problems ?
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Booo - borrowed disc is no better :(
Each start, GPS locks happily onto correct position.....then does not move (service menu shows getting constant data feed, can see coordinates etc. updating).......
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Guess so....or is it a simple enough 'fit' for someone of an elctronics persuasion ? My dad is a whizz with all such things, and if it is a question of disconnecting one and connecting in a replacement, or a modicum of soldering he might be the guy ?
Needs some sort of alignment / tracking (so i'm guessing a 'scope is required).
Nope, not on this unit.....fit and go
hi :), sorry to jump in on this thread, but is the NCDC2015 sat laser the same as the 2013 :question - as mine occasionally throws the disk out 'just asks please insert nav disk' - its an original disk. if replacements are available - then its something to consider.
regards
rob
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Guess so....or is it a simple enough 'fit' for someone of an elctronics persuasion ? My dad is a whizz with all such things, and if it is a question of disconnecting one and connecting in a replacement, or a modicum of soldering he might be the guy ?
Needs some sort of alignment / tracking (so i'm guessing a 'scope is required).
Nope, not on this unit.....fit and go
hi :), sorry to jump in on this thread, but is the NCDC2015 sat laser the same as the 2013 :question - as mine occasionally throws the disk out 'just asks please insert nav disk' - its an original disk. if replacements are available - then its something to consider.
regards
rob
Yep, same laser unit.
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Mine tends to spit the disc out when cold .. as soon as it "warms up" .. 3 - 5 minutes .. it works fine ... no idea why .. but I live with it .. :)
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Mine tends to spit the disc out when cold .. as soon as it "warms up" .. 3 - 5 minutes .. it works fine ... no idea why .. but I live with it .. :)
Laser can't focus. One of my units used to do this, using an original disk has stopped it doing this.
If it spits the disk out all the time then the only solution is to replace the laser.
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Recordable media seems to suffer more with misting up and condensation in the cold than original discs -
Someone will be along shortly I would think to explain the differences in manufacturing processes that cause this.
;)
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Not my words.....googled it :-*
Compact Discs are of two types - pressed CDs (or DVDs) and recordable CDRs (or DVD-Rs). Both uses completely different techniques for storing data and are also manufactured using different techniques.
Pressed CD
In a factory made CD, called pressed CD, data is stored in the form of zeros and ones in “pits” and “lands”. The surface of a pressed CD has a number of microscopic dents called “pits” which correspond to a zero and flat areas called “lands” which correspond to a one. If you were to view the CD surface with a powerful microscope you might actually able to see the pits and lands on the surface! A laser beam inside the CD drive scans the surface of the CD for these pits and lands. When the laser hits a land it reflects back directly to a photocell, present inside the CD player, which detects it and reads it as one. When the laser hits a pit it gets scattered everywhere with no or very few light returning back to the photocell. This is read as zero. Since these pits and lands are physically molded into the surface of the disc, pressed discs can last hundreds of years provided you do not damage or scratch the recorded surface. In a CD player, the only thing that touches the CD is a beam of light: the laser beam bounces harmlessly off the surface of the CD, so the disc itself should (in theory) never wear out.
Recordable CD-Rs
Recordable CD-Rs are different from pressed discs. CD-Rs does not contain pits and lands, instead its covered with a layer of organic dye. This dye has a special characteristic. When the disc is written, a high powered laser causes spots on the dye to turn black (hence the term “burning”). When such a recorded CD is played on a CD player, the burned and the unburned areas which have differently reflectivity is seen by the photocell inside the CD player as pits and lands. When the laser beam encounters a dark spot, the light gets absorbed by the spot which is the same as the light being scattered by a pit. Hence this is read as zero. The unburned areas behave the same way as a land and are read as one.
Unfortunately, because the dye is a light-sensitive chemical, over time it will fade, just like the dye in a photograph fades with time. This can happen from the heat of the reading laser, from ambient light, and from chemical degradation in the dye and support media.
Hence recordable CDs often gets bad and data corrupted even though you have stored them with utmost care. Backing up your data on recordable DVDs isn’t a wise choice after all.
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Not my words.....googled it :-*
Compact Discs are of two types - pressed CDs (or DVDs) and recordable CDRs (or DVD-Rs). Both uses completely different techniques for storing data and are also manufactured using different techniques.
Pressed CD
In a factory made CD, called pressed CD, data is stored in the form of zeros and ones in “pits” and “lands”. The surface of a pressed CD has a number of microscopic dents called “pits” which correspond to a zero and flat areas called “lands” which correspond to a one. If you were to view the CD surface with a powerful microscope you might actually able to see the pits and lands on the surface! A laser beam inside the CD drive scans the surface of the CD for these pits and lands. When the laser hits a land it reflects back directly to a photocell, present inside the CD player, which detects it and reads it as one. When the laser hits a pit it gets scattered everywhere with no or very few light returning back to the photocell. This is read as zero. Since these pits and lands are physically molded into the surface of the disc, pressed discs can last hundreds of years provided you do not damage or scratch the recorded surface. In a CD player, the only thing that touches the CD is a beam of light: the laser beam bounces harmlessly off the surface of the CD, so the disc itself should (in theory) never wear out.
Recordable CD-Rs
Recordable CD-Rs are different from pressed discs. CD-Rs does not contain pits and lands, instead its covered with a layer of organic dye. This dye has a special characteristic. When the disc is written, a high powered laser causes spots on the dye to turn black (hence the term “burning”). When such a recorded CD is played on a CD player, the burned and the unburned areas which have differently reflectivity is seen by the photocell inside the CD player as pits and lands. When the laser beam encounters a dark spot, the light gets absorbed by the spot which is the same as the light being scattered by a pit. Hence this is read as zero. The unburned areas behave the same way as a land and are read as one.
Unfortunately, because the dye is a light-sensitive chemical, over time it will fade, just like the dye in a photograph fades with time. This can happen from the heat of the reading laser, from ambient light, and from chemical degradation in the dye and support media.
Hence recordable CDs often gets bad and data corrupted even though you have stored them with utmost care. Backing up your data on recordable DVDs isn’t a wise choice after all.
Good answer, but I was actually referring to the physical water marks caused by water ingress and condensation between the layers - can often give quite a milky appearance when left in the cold
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@ MDTM - So is it an 'easy' fit ?
@ VXL V6 - How many pennies would sir be looking for on the part ?
Think I paid about £30 ea for them. The UK stockist is slightly cheaper but looks to be out of stock at the moment.
Hi, good news that the laser is the same as the ndc2015 unit. Could you supply the link to the uk supplier or just post the part number - regards rob
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Booo ! Had the battery off today on failed attempt @ replacing the ABS/TC ECU ( >:() and still no navigation.....looks like a laser is next step.......
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Booo ! Had the battery off today on failed attempt @ replacing the ABS/TC ECU ( >:() and still no navigation.....looks like a laser is next step.......
Is the unit spitting the disc out?
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Booo ! Had the battery off today on failed attempt @ replacing the ABS/TC ECU ( >:() and still no navigation.....looks like a laser is next step.......
Is the unit spitting the disc out?
no - just refuses to give me 'updating' position/map etc. Thing is, as I have mentioned before, when in the service/test menus, everything appears to be updating fine (position, coordinates, speed, elevation and so on)
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Are you getting a speed pulse signal from the car?
Not to be confused with the signal from the GPS antenna also showing movement.
If you have lost speed pulse, the unit may still show signs of movement from the GPS signals, but as this is a secondary method of checking where you are, rather than the primary method of tracking where you are by speedpulse and Gyroscope, its possible that the map would remain stationary if the signal were lost.
Not sure how you check it on an Omega, but someone will be along soon with some advice. Tech2 maybe? Even try with GPS aerial unplugged?
:-/
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Are you getting a speed pulse signal from the car?
Not to be confused with the signal from the GPS antenna also showing movement.
If you have lost speed pulse, the unit may still show signs of movement from the GPS signals, but as this is a secondary method of checking where you are, rather than the primary method of tracking where you are by speedpulse and Gyroscope, its possible that the map would remain stationary if the signal were lost.
Not sure how you check it on an Omega, but someone will be along soon with some advice. Tech2 maybe? Even try with GPS aerial unplugged?
:-/
With the siemens unit fitted, unlike the carins, it would appear that speed and gyros are not primary, but used when no gps
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Well, my ABS/TC ECU is dead currently - spare waiting to go on, but failed miserably in my attempt yesterday :( - and so I have no speedo atm ? Likely contributor ?
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Well, my ABS/TC ECU is dead currently - spare waiting to go on, but failed miserably in my attempt yesterday :( - and so I have no speedo atm ? Likely contributor ?
hmmm, i guess fix the known faults first, ie abs
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actually, more i think about it, more it needs the speed pulse, even if it seems to place more emphasis on gps than mechanical inputs than the carin units did
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mmmm, so now I am starting to get hope ;)
The AB/TC ECU is going to be fixed sometime soon - a guy I know is hopefully going to do it - perhaps the gremlins will disappear at the same time ::)
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YAYYY !
Excellent news.......seems that the navigation works perfectly when the ABS/TC light is not on......
So my imminent replacement ABS/TC ECU (tried and failed to do it myself :-/ ) from the garage guy will make my satnav all spangly again :y
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YAYYY !
Excellent news.......seems that the navigation works perfectly when the ABS/TC light is not on......
So my imminent replacement ABS/TC ECU (tried and failed to do it myself :-/ ) from the garage guy will make my satnav all spangly again :y
Thanks for the update - worth remembering that :y
I know the carin doesn't work (or even locate you if stationary) without the speed pulse. As the Siemens can locate you via GPS without speed pulse, I thought it would be able to work without speed pulse. Obviously not ;D
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YAYYY !
Excellent news.......seems that the navigation works perfectly when the ABS/TC light is not on......
So my imminent replacement ABS/TC ECU (tried and failed to do it myself :-/ ) from the garage guy will make my satnav all spangly again :y
Thanks for the update - worth remembering that :y
I know the carin doesn't work (or even locate you if stationary) without the speed pulse. As the Siemens can locate you via GPS without speed pulse, I thought it would be able to work without speed pulse. Obviously not ;D
Not quite, most of the dedicated in car systems (including most of, but maybe not all Carin versions) use a Speed pulse, gyroscope and a map to track you as you move along, and only look at a satellite every 30 seconds or so for confirmation of location. They do not track by satellite, although the location check every so often can make them appear as if they do.
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YAYYY !
Excellent news.......seems that the navigation works perfectly when the ABS/TC light is not on......
So my imminent replacement ABS/TC ECU (tried and failed to do it myself :-/ ) from the garage guy will make my satnav all spangly again :y
Thanks for the update - worth remembering that :y
I know the carin doesn't work (or even locate you if stationary) without the speed pulse. As the Siemens can locate you via GPS without speed pulse, I thought it would be able to work without speed pulse. Obviously not ;D
Not quite, most of the dedicated in car systems (including most of, but maybe not all Carin versions) use a Speed pulse, gyroscope and a map to track you as you move along, and only look at a satellite every 30 seconds or so for confirmation of location. They do not track by satellite, although the location check every so often can make them appear as if they do.
I guess that's how the system knows your direction of travel when in an underground carpark etc?
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YAYYY !
Excellent news.......seems that the navigation works perfectly when the ABS/TC light is not on......
So my imminent replacement ABS/TC ECU (tried and failed to do it myself :-/ ) from the garage guy will make my satnav all spangly again :y
Thanks for the update - worth remembering that :y
I know the carin doesn't work (or even locate you if stationary) without the speed pulse. As the Siemens can locate you via GPS without speed pulse, I thought it would be able to work without speed pulse. Obviously not ;D
Not quite, most of the dedicated in car systems (including most of, but maybe not all Carin versions) use a Speed pulse, gyroscope and a map to track you as you move along, and only look at a satellite every 30 seconds or so for confirmation of location. They do not track by satellite, although the location check every so often can make them appear as if they do.
I guess that's how the system knows your direction of travel when in an underground carpark etc?
Correct, what makes the dedicated systems so much more expensive, and considerably better than the handheld ones for hikers and bikers, is the ability to track you accurately at speed in areas that are difficult to get a line of sight view of a satellite. Not just car parks, but tunnels, built up areas and anywhere with trees that are wet.
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YAYYY !
Excellent news.......seems that the navigation works perfectly when the ABS/TC light is not on......
So my imminent replacement ABS/TC ECU (tried and failed to do it myself :-/ ) from the garage guy will make my satnav all spangly again :y
Thanks for the update - worth remembering that :y
I know the carin doesn't work (or even locate you if stationary) without the speed pulse. As the Siemens can locate you via GPS without speed pulse, I thought it would be able to work without speed pulse. Obviously not ;D
Not quite, most of the dedicated in car systems (including most of, but maybe not all Carin versions) use a Speed pulse, gyroscope and a map to track you as you move along, and only look at a satellite every 30 seconds or so for confirmation of location. They do not track by satellite, although the location check every so often can make them appear as if they do.
I guess that's how the system knows your direction of travel when in an underground carpark etc?
Correct, what makes the dedicated systems so much more expensive, and considerably better than the handheld ones for hikers and bikers, is the ability to track you accurately at speed in areas that are difficult to get a line of sight view of a satellite. Not just car parks, but tunnels, built up areas and anywhere with trees that are wet.
I know the carin is pretty accurate - I used it before without the gps (each car had a carin, but initially only one gps mouse between them), and its not bad considering. Yes it drifts, but I was still impressed