Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega Electrical and Audio Help => Topic started by: TheBoy on 12 November 2008, 20:22:25
-
Anyone know which chip the coding info is stored on on NCDx series radios ::). Its definately on the front board.
Answers via PM please.
-
Not found it on mine yet....the one on the rear board seems to have little more than radio staion info in it
-
Not found it on mine yet....the one on the rear board seems to have little more than radio staion info in it
Defo front board - swapping the board on my NCDR1100 (unknown code) with the one from Tunnie's old NCDC2013 (depaired), makes my NCDR1100 depaired.
I'm guessing one of those AMD 29 series chips on the underside of board...
-
several versions,
24C64
24LC16
or sometimes the chip is emulated as the above within a main processor D78P0585C
;)
-
several versions,
24C64
24LC16
or sometimes the chip is emulated as the above within a main processor D78P0585C
;)
Couldn't see any of them. Main processor is SH3.
I'll try and get some hires photos.
I have, for now, taken the board from the ncdc2013 (with failed cd and cdc unit) into the ncdr1100 (which I don't have code for), but means I haven't a spare depaired board to send you at moment :'(
-
Hi Res photos of board, though not brilliantly clear. Plus I'd half reassembled it before I remembered I needed pictures!
http://theboy.omegaowners.com/oofpics/ncdr1500_install/odds/IMG_3248.JPG
http://theboy.omegaowners.com/oofpics/ncdr1500_install/odds/IMG_3249.JPG
-
email sent -
The code is emulated as a 24C16 within the flash memory
I`ve marked the two chips for you.
Good Luck ! :'(
-
email sent -
The code is emulated as a 24C16 within the flash memory
I`ve marked the two chips for you.
Good Luck ! :'(
Email recv'd
All I can say is.... ....bugger!
-
email sent -
The code is emulated as a 24C16 within the flash memory
I`ve marked the two chips for you.
Good Luck ! :'(
Email recv'd
All I can say is.... ....bugger!
That'll be one of the chips with umpteen pins a gnat's whisker apart then?
Kevin
-
40 pin flash device....I suspect it actually the single device on its own rather than the twin 16bit setup.
Not to hard to remove, read and re-solder.....I have done FAR worse!
-
40 pin flash device....I suspect it actually the single device on its own rather than the twin 16bit setup.
Not to hard to remove, read and re-solder.....I have done FAR worse!
No, its not the single one. Very common configuration on car audio these days to run two of these together.
Removing the chip is not that bad, but reading the data can be problematic due to the encyrptions they have. As I said earlier, there is a section of memory that emulates a 24C16 and this is not easy to decifer, as reading as an ordinary flash chip gives very different results !!
-
Very surprised at that.
I guess the single one is acting as boot and little else (few processors can boot of dual chip configs).
The answer then is an ICE or BDM
-
Very surprised at that.
I guess the single one is acting as boot and little else (few processors can boot of dual chip configs).
The answer then is an ICE or BDM
No, they don`t boot as a dual configuration. If you read the emulated section, there is actually very little data in either of them - I think this is nothing more than an exercise is annoying the decoding fraternity!
Be aware that simply reading and attempting cloning of the flash chip itself may not be enough to actually clone the chip. Not much experience of this particular Vx model, but for instance, similar setup used in Alfa Romeo & Porsche units and you have to boot the flash device before you can read the entire code data area. Once you have booted the chip you will be staggered at the readings and how they differ from that taken by simply "reading" the flash memory.
If you manage to crack that one, then come and see me, as there will be a desk and a job here waiting for you !!
-
I am not surprsied about the prom reading method, if the chips are setup as I suspect they are then they will be wired as two 8 bit devices in parralel to support the 16 bit micro bus being used.
Hence with a prom programmer you will see only either the upper or lower byte word....where as a BDM would allow you to see what the micro see's.
Its been a few years since I did micro circuit design and coded boot software etc so I would be a bit rusty but, sure its no an impossible task to single step through and find the point where the code transmission occure and which section of memory its then sourced from.
I ahve to say that I am not to surprised that the codes are now in Flash although I am a little concerned given how poor flash is at reliable meory retention (although NOR is more reliable than NAND and NOR is the only true bus compatible stuff and hence why its used for boot up with NAND being more akkin to an IDE type interface with blcok access)
-
I am not surprsied about the prom reading method, if the chips are setup as I suspect they are then they will be wired as two 8 bit devices in parralel to support the 16 bit micro bus being used.
Hence with a prom programmer you will see only either the upper or lower byte word....where as a BDM would allow you to see what the micro see's.
Its been a few years since I did micro circuit design and coded boot software etc so I would be a bit rusty but, sure its no an impossible task to single step through and find the point where the code transmission occure and which section of memory its then sourced from.
I ahve to say that I am not to surprised that the codes are now in Flash although I am a little concerned given how poor flash is at reliable meory retention (although NOR is more reliable than NAND and NOR is the only true bus compatible stuff and hence why its used for boot up with NAND being more akkin to an IDE type interface with blcok access)
I guess they hope it will last the warranty life of car (3yrs)?
-
As to reliability of flash - I have some old 64M CF cards, must be approaching 10yrs old, the data on them still seems good (only read occasionally, no writes for years). But against that, I have some more modern stuff that seems to corrupt occasionally - eg, utilities on usb stick no longer readable, and some pictures in camera not displaying on PC due to corruption (oddly, camera can always read them)
-
As to reliability of flash - I have some old 64M CF cards, must be approaching 10yrs old, the data on them still seems good (only read occasionally, no writes for years). But against that, I have some more modern stuff that seems to corrupt occasionally - eg, utilities on usb stick no longer readable, and some pictures in camera not displaying on PC due to corruption (oddly, camera can always read them)
Which is as you would expect.....as the original NOR flash os very reliable (but limited in its capacity) where as the later NAND flash is much more prone to issues but can be manufactured in much larger capacities.
-
As to reliability of flash - I have some old 64M CF cards, must be approaching 10yrs old, the data on them still seems good (only read occasionally, no writes for years). But against that, I have some more modern stuff that seems to corrupt occasionally - eg, utilities on usb stick no longer readable, and some pictures in camera not displaying on PC due to corruption (oddly, camera can always read them)
Which is as you would expect.....as the original NOR flash os very reliable (but limited in its capacity) where as the later NAND flash is much more prone to issues but can be manufactured in much larger capacities.
Ah, would make sense. I thought all CF would be NAND - I guess not.
-
As to reliability of flash - I have some old 64M CF cards, must be approaching 10yrs old, the data on them still seems good (only read occasionally, no writes for years). But against that, I have some more modern stuff that seems to corrupt occasionally - eg, utilities on usb stick no longer readable, and some pictures in camera not displaying on PC due to corruption (oddly, camera can always read them)
Which is as you would expect.....as the original NOR flash os very reliable (but limited in its capacity) where as the later NAND flash is much more prone to issues but can be manufactured in much larger capacities.
Ah, would make sense. I thought all CF would be NAND - I guess not.
Nope.....the early stuff is NOR and topped out at about 128MB (although some mega pricey 512 studd was about).
Of course, the linear stuff is all NOR!
-
As to reliability of flash - I have some old 64M CF cards, must be approaching 10yrs old, the data on them still seems good (only read occasionally, no writes for years). But against that, I have some more modern stuff that seems to corrupt occasionally - eg, utilities on usb stick no longer readable, and some pictures in camera not displaying on PC due to corruption (oddly, camera can always read them)
Which is as you would expect.....as the original NOR flash os very reliable (but limited in its capacity) where as the later NAND flash is much more prone to issues but can be manufactured in much larger capacities.
Ah, would make sense. I thought all CF would be NAND - I guess not.
Nope.....the early stuff is NOR and topped out at about 128MB (although some mega pricey 512 studd was about).
Of course, the linear stuff is all NOR!
Something else to take into account with the modern stuff failing though, has surely got to be the cheapness and build quality. We all know that things are not made as robustly as they used to be, but it is the components themselves that are failing, or simply the way they are lashed together?
I had a 10GB USB stick a while ago that would also not reliably hold data on it. Took the thing apart and found that it had been assembled with virtually no solder whatsoever. Gave it a good blitz with the iron, and now it seems fine.
-
As to reliability of flash - I have some old 64M CF cards, must be approaching 10yrs old, the data on them still seems good (only read occasionally, no writes for years). But against that, I have some more modern stuff that seems to corrupt occasionally - eg, utilities on usb stick no longer readable, and some pictures in camera not displaying on PC due to corruption (oddly, camera can always read them)
Which is as you would expect.....as the original NOR flash os very reliable (but limited in its capacity) where as the later NAND flash is much more prone to issues but can be manufactured in much larger capacities.
Ah, would make sense. I thought all CF would be NAND - I guess not.
Nope.....the early stuff is NOR and topped out at about 128MB (although some mega pricey 512 studd was about).
Of course, the linear stuff is all NOR!
Shame the Tech2 linear cards are so unreliable ::)
-
40 pin flash device....I suspect it actually the single device on its own rather than the twin 16bit setup.
Not to hard to remove, read and re-solder.....I have done FAR worse!
has anyone been able to remove flash memory, read and store the file? I think if you read the contents of two memories (am29lv16) of an unpaired/unmarried NCDR, and writing files to "married" flash, we will get our radio unpaired .... :-/
-
40 pin flash device....I suspect it actually the single device on its own rather than the twin 16bit setup.
Not to hard to remove, read and re-solder.....I have done FAR worse!
has anyone been able to remove flash memory, read and store the file? I think if you read the contents of two memories (am29lv16) of an unpaired/unmarried NCDR, and writing files to "married" flash, we will get our radio unpaired .... :-/
We found an easier way to get the code in the end....from the Cd changer :y
-
40 pin flash device....I suspect it actually the single device on its own rather than the twin 16bit setup.
Not to hard to remove, read and re-solder.....I have done FAR worse!
has anyone been able to remove flash memory, read and store the file? I think if you read the contents of two memories (am29lv16) of an unpaired/unmarried NCDR, and writing files to "married" flash, we will get our radio unpaired .... :-/
Yes. Cloning a unit as you describe is actually fairly easy by rewriting the two flash chips, but not without its problems though, and only works with an identical model of head unit. What we have not yet managed to achieve is to identify all of the the locations of the data within the flash memory that is required to be reset in order to unpair the units.
The problem with the cloning of memory dumps in this way is that you are usually using an earlier software version with the dump you are inserting and end up putting back into the stereo all of the bugs and faults that have been sorted out by the later software updates. If you can identify the correct data to be changed, then this can be done without affecting the existing software of the unit.
-
We found an easier way to get the code in the end....from the Cd changer
But i haven't CAN cd changer!! I have ONLY the NCDR1100 married to a car somewhere ... (and the CID is from a french car ... ). I bought them separately. CID is unpaired but not NCDR ... when I connect them through CAN BUS, "DISPLAY SAFE" (not blinking) appears on CID. I'm electronic engineer student and I'm very used to solder/desolder fine pitch SMD IC.
It is impossible to get the VIN number or anything from the NCDR donor car.
I guess i can read/write the contents on flash memories ... is there is there any chance for my radio to work :-? ? thanks.
-
40 pin flash device....I suspect it actually the single device on its own rather than the twin 16bit setup.
Not to hard to remove, read and re-solder.....I have done FAR worse!
has anyone been able to remove flash memory, read and store the file? I think if you read the contents of two memories (am29lv16) of an unpaired/unmarried NCDR, and writing files to "married" flash, we will get our radio unpaired .... :-/
Yes. Cloning a unit as you describe is actually fairly easy by rewriting the two flash chips, but not without its problems though, and only works with an identical model of head unit. What we have not yet managed to achieve is to identify all of the the locations of the data within the flash memory that is required to be reset in order to unpair the units.
The problem with the cloning of memory dumps in this way is that you are usually using an earlier software version with the dump you are inserting and end up putting back into the stereo all of the bugs and faults that have been sorted out by the later software updates. If you can identify the correct data to be changed, then this can be done without affecting the existing software of the unit.
It doesnt matter if I flash my radio with an older file, I only want it works!! is a tall order a memory dump of the two AM29LV ?
Thanks !
-
40 pin flash device....I suspect it actually the single device on its own rather than the twin 16bit setup.
Not to hard to remove, read and re-solder.....I have done FAR worse!
has anyone been able to remove flash memory, read and store the file? I think if you read the contents of two memories (am29lv16) of an unpaired/unmarried NCDR, and writing files to "married" flash, we will get our radio unpaired .... :-/
Yes. Cloning a unit as you describe is actually fairly easy by rewriting the two flash chips, but not without its problems though, and only works with an identical model of head unit. What we have not yet managed to achieve is to identify all of the the locations of the data within the flash memory that is required to be reset in order to unpair the units.
The problem with the cloning of memory dumps in this way is that you are usually using an earlier software version with the dump you are inserting and end up putting back into the stereo all of the bugs and faults that have been sorted out by the later software updates. If you can identify the correct data to be changed, then this can be done without affecting the existing software of the unit.
It doesnt matter if I flash my radio with an older file, I only want it works!! is a tall order a memory dump of the two AM29LV ?
Thanks !
Yes, it does matter considerably, if the the data stored in the flash chips does not match the operating system of the main processor, the data will be rejected. Rewrite the code data, by all means, but if you are good enough to alter the operating system as well, then I guess that you would not be asking these questions on the forum.
Simply Cloning a flash chip with the dump from another unit will not work on this model. You need to read the data correctly.
:-X
-
Ah, sorry, ignore my PM - I saw the PM, and didn't tie it to this thread :-[
As be say in the UK, you're in a smelly, dirty, narrow inlet, looking for an oar.
If the display is paired to another device with an unknown code, that ain't much good either - though we may be able to depair that.
-
Incidentally, looking at the car you drive, the data held on the Vectra stereo differs also from the Omega one - (even if same model)
If you are driving a Vectra, you may be asking for help amongst the wrong circle of people, as info received is more geared towards Omegas here.
;)
-
Incidentally, looking at the car you drive, the data held on the Vectra stereo differs also from the Omega one - (even if same model)
If you are driving a Vectra, you may be asking for help amongst the wrong circle of people, as info received is more geared towards Omegas here.
;)
Its a simple config change via Tech2, that has no real bearing on the unit. Whether or not it alters any software, rather than just a few parameters, I wouldn't like to say though - never compared them (based on the fact I can't read the chip :-[)
-
We need to get a CAN bus sniffer made!
-
We need to get a CAN bus sniffer made!
I nice little project for you ;)
If it helps, I can loan you a working NCDC and a (complete!) CID to play with.
-
Ok, thanks for the answers ... 2 more questions:
1 - Is there any posibility taking the radio + CID to Vauxhall dealer and connecting TECH2? (remember, no car pass, no VIN ...)
2 - When I connect "My Naff Code Reader" interface (080114 software), I go to NCDR1100 and click on measuring blocks, I can read "theft protection -- unit disabled". I can read the same when I click on CID display. But DISPLAY SAFE appears everytime and not blinking. What's the meaning of that?
-
We need to get a CAN bus sniffer made!
YES !!!!! :y
-
Easy enough from an electronic perspective, suspect my visual basic is a bit to limited to do the software though!
-
An MPC2515 microchip demo board might do the job....
Has basic software and USB support....
Sourcing one might be a bit harder though!
-
Farnell
http://uk.farnell.com/microchip/mcp2515dm-bm/kit-demo-can-bus-monitor-board/dp/1676254
42 quid
Awaiting delivery!
-
Easy enough from an electronic perspective, suspect my visual basic is a bit to limited to do the software though!
vb may not be a good tool for this, unless there is a dll (and likely a sys) provided by someone. vb is a bit pants for dlls, and can't do sys files at all.
-
Ok, thanks for the answers ... 2 more questions:
1 - Is there any posibility taking the radio + CID to Vauxhall dealer and connecting TECH2? (remember, no car pass, no VIN ...)
2 - When I connect "My Naff Code Reader" interface (080114 software), I go to NCDR1100 and click on measuring blocks, I can read "theft protection -- unit disabled". I can read the same when I click on CID display. But DISPLAY SAFE appears everytime and not blinking. What's the meaning of that?
1 - Yes, but what do you hope to achieve? Tech2 cannot decode without the initial pairing code. So if its depairing, you will need the code.
2 - Not familiar with "My Naff Code Reader", but if Unit Disabled, that sounds like the unit has had 10 attempts to depair, and is now a doorstop. We have yet to find a way around this. Of course its possibly "My Naff Code Reader" means that Security code is active, and there are still attempts left, but the real Tech2 does say attempts remaining on next line after the Security state.
-
That's a nice bit of kit! And if I am right you get two boards to play with in the eval kit.
Kevin
-
Farnell
http://uk.farnell.com/microchip/mcp2515dm-bm/kit-demo-can-bus-monitor-board/dp/1676254
42 quid
Awaiting delivery!
Just looking at the DS now... ...the monitoring part looks very interesting...
-
Farnell
http://uk.farnell.com/microchip/mcp2515dm-bm/kit-demo-can-bus-monitor-board/dp/1676254
42 quid
Awaiting delivery!
Well spotted !!
I`ve just ordered one as well
:)
-
The microchip eval boards are normaly VERY good (and cost effective)
The fact it can sniff means that it should be possible to identify the CN headers for display/audio and then interpret the codes being passed between them.
-
That's a nice bit of kit! And if I am right you get two boards to play with in the eval kit.
Kevin
That is the sudgestion
-
That's a nice bit of kit! And if I am right you get two boards to play with in the eval kit.
Kevin
That is the sudgestion
The Farnell bit isn't that clear, but the datasheet suggests that
-
I'm watching this thread with interest.
As TB knows, i've accumlated various bits of this kit so if MDTM or DaveDND need to borrow anything for testing let me know.
:y
-
I'm watching this thread with interest.
As TB knows, i've accumlated various bits of this kit so if MDTM or DaveDND need to borrow anything for testing let me know.
:y
Mr DTM needs to check one of those telematics first, as its toast. I tidied up a couple of joints that I didn't think were that great, but made no difference...
-
Yep, no problem, hopefully can catch up with you when i'm next passing and i'll pick it up then. :y