Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega Electrical and Audio Help => Topic started by: Diamond Black Geezer on 29 October 2010, 02:38:32
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I know this is fairly well-treaded ground on here, but I just wanted to clarify something about the Bose.
If I plug in a bose amp to the bose resonator speaker from an estate elite, and hook up the lot to a standard loom / head unit in a facelift cdx (the exact model escapes me, not my car! anyway...) what happens?
Do i get piddly sound/no sound or works brilliant from the woofer!?!
I very much doubt the latter somehow ;)
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You will probably fry the Bose amp as it's not designed to take the a speaker level signal. At best it will be overdriven and give you very little control of the volume level.
I believe Dave DND sells an adaptor to drop speaker level signals down to Bose levels?
Kevin
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Very simple answer - and one that has been written to death on this forum.
BOSE amplifiers and speakers will ONLY work with a BOSE enabled head unit that has been correctly installed and I guess that includes the correct wiring loom as well, (although making a new loom to retro fit this is perfectly acceptable)
If any part of the BOSE system is changed for something non-BOSE, whether it be amplifier, subwoofer, speakers, wiring loom, telematics, or head unit, then the system will not function correctly, and damage may even occur to some of the components fitted.
;)
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I believe Dave DND sells an adaptor to drop speaker level signals down to Bose levels?
We were investigating the use of a Porsche interface to do this, but so far have not reached any acceptable conclusions
:-/
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hmmm..... there are some easily obtainable pro-audio bits of kit that might help....
a thing called a DI box, many offer the ability to connect a speaker output to the input, , then pass the high level signal through to a speaker out put, but split a feed from that at -20dB or even -40dB in some cases, the feed comes out "balanced" so would need converting to unbalanced (easy, just drop one wire to earth, or even just leave it floating. ) and feeding the other wire + earth to the device wanting a line level input.
The correct impedance load is maintained on the speaker signal, so no damage to amplifiers , and the correct level signal ( these things typically have unity (0dB) , -10dB , and -20 dB switched options, you have to hunt a bit to find ones that do -20/-40 ) can be fed to the Bose amp.
they generally are active devices and need powering, a 9V battery, or phantom power are the normal answer, so a bit of work to drop the DC from nominal +12V to +9, and earth.....
(passive DI's also exist, but are often sonically inferior, or lack the switched attenuation options... )
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hmmm..... there are some easily obtainable pro-audio bits of kit that might help....
a thing called a DI box, many offer the ability to connect a speaker output to the input, , then pass the high level signal through to a speaker out put, but split a feed from that at -20dB or even -40dB in some cases, the feed comes out "balanced" so would need converting to unbalanced (easy, just drop one wire to earth, or even just leave it floating. ) and feeding the other wire + earth to the device wanting a line level input.
The correct impedance load is maintained on the speaker signal, so no damage to amplifiers , and the correct level signal ( these things typically have unity (0dB) , -10dB , and -20 dB switched options, you have to hunt a bit to find ones that do -20/-40 ) can be fed to the Bose amp.
they generally are active devices and need powering, a 9V battery, or phantom power are the normal answer, so a bit of work to drop the DC from nominal +12V to +9, and earth.....
(passive DI's also exist, but are often sonically inferior, or lack the switched attenuation options... )
I see 2 flaws with your suggestion:
1) The BOSE amplifier does not take a conventional line input voltage as used by everybody else - most of these convertors will not allow the correct range of voltages to be used with aftermarket head units, especially those that employ any form of digital encoder for volume incrementation
2) The BOSE system is really accoustically outdated, and really not worth investing the time and expense in trying to solve the problem - ripping out and replacing the system with an aftermarket speaker option is still cheaper and sounds much better.
Since the Omega BOSE system came out near 20 years ago, Speaker technology has moved on considerably, unlike many of the Omega owners who have not.
:-X
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I believe Dave DND sells an adaptor to drop speaker level signals down to Bose levels?
We were investigating the use of a Porsche interface to do this, but so far have not reached any acceptable conclusions
:-/
Ahh, I recall now. :-[
I was going to have a play at some point. Haven't got round to it yet. Not helped by the fact that I don't have a Bose setup (nor do I have any ambitions of owning one).
2) The BOSE system is really accoustically outdated, and really not worth investing the time and expense in trying to solve the problem - ripping out and replacing the system with an aftermarket speaker option is still cheaper and sounds much better.
Since the Omega BOSE system came out near 20 years ago, Speaker technology has moved on considerably, unlike many of the Omega owners who have not.
Agreed. I think there's still some value in investigating this, however, if only to stop the repeated "How can I connect my Sony ..... to my Bose system" threads. ;)
Those who want the best sound quality will of course take the whole system out and start again.
That does leave those who want a feature of a modern head unit (e.g. MP3 Playback), or whose CCR2006 has died. They are happy with the sound quality and not prepared to mess about removing 4x door cards and replacing all the speakers. They just want to be able to use an aftermarket head unit.
Kevin
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Point 1 is fixable..... no matter WHAT the bose nominal line level is....
you tell me the range, i'll tell you the solution.... not an issue ( I design, build, and wire professional recording studios , so, for example, taking a line level feed, or even a mic level feed, from the output of a 200W class AB valve amp, is par for the course....
the solution i was proposing takes the analogue, high power, speaker output , splits a feed off it, at the correct level, and then passes the speaker output onwards to speakers.
2 such devices, gives you a stereo feed...
if the speakers are not to be connected to the source, then a Dummy load needs to be placed on the tail end of that chain.... again, not difficult.
this assumes people want to use BOSE with a Non bose capable head unit, with a stereo speaker output set up, and need to feed the bose a lower level signal.
i assume the corss overs and amps for the rest of the system are in the BOSE bit..... never having pulled the system apart, i wouldn;t know... all i DO know is how to get from one level of signal to another, with maximum fidelity .....
point 2
for people like me, who want decent sound, AND as close to original functionality and appearance as possible.... the Bose system is really the only answer..... especially if you like the built in Sat Nav options.... like me...
so I'm now pondering the long term project of acquisition and instalation of said item in my MV6, having come from an older Bose equipped, Elite , the difference is noticeable....
i do NOT want a flashy lights, garish horrid looking piece of jap plastic sat in my dashboard....
i LIKE the built in Sat Nav, far more than a ~tom ~tom..... (whihc i'm currently forced to use till i can get the NCDC replaced with one off phil.
(a this point someone will tell me i should have bought an elite.... ) :y
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Max, have you ever considered an Elite?
The Bose system amplifies all speaker feeds (6 channels - 4 full range in the doors and 2 subs in the boot) in the box under the parcel shelf (elsewhere on an Estate).
The Bose box is fed from the original 4 head unit speaker outputs but the head units are configured to output a lower level (but not as low as conventional line level) hence it can't be fed from a "standard" aftermarket head unit.
Nothing that clever happens in the head unit - the output is still fed from the same amplifier chips so I suspect it just turns on some attenuation to reduce the level into the bose amps.
I need to configure a head unit for Bose sometime and have a look at the output with a test CD playing just to confirm.
I think it's quite likely that a simple solution exists to drive one from the output of an aftermarket head unit. As you say, probably just a combined dummy load and attenuator giving a balanced pair from each speaker output.
Only slight fly in the ointment might be if there's anything weird like extra filtering applied in the head unit. Doubtful, IMHO. There's clearly a crossover for the sub in the Bose amp anyway so why wouldn't it all be done there?
Kevin
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Thanks for all youyr input. I didnt mean to re-tread an already well-trodden path! I have seen a silly cheap amp / rear speaker. No use without all else to go with it. Thatll do for me!
Cannot wrap my head round how car audio works, there's so many things that DON'T work, for reasons i cannot comprehend... so have very much respect for all you who DO understand it!!! 8-)
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.. and having re-read your question properly ::) No sense in fitting a Bose amp just to run a sub. Get an aftermarket amp with a speaker level input and switchable low pass filter. :y
Kevin
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Haha! No probs!
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hmmm..... there are some easily obtainable pro-audio bits of kit that might help....
a thing called a DI box, many offer the ability to connect a speaker output to the input, , then pass the high level signal through to a speaker out put, but split a feed from that at -20dB or even -40dB in some cases, the feed comes out "balanced" so would need converting to unbalanced (easy, just drop one wire to earth, or even just leave it floating. ) and feeding the other wire + earth to the device wanting a line level input.
The correct impedance load is maintained on the speaker signal, so no damage to amplifiers , and the correct level signal ( these things typically have unity (0dB) , -10dB , and -20 dB switched options, you have to hunt a bit to find ones that do -20/-40 ) can be fed to the Bose amp.
they generally are active devices and need powering, a 9V battery, or phantom power are the normal answer, so a bit of work to drop the DC from nominal +12V to +9, and earth.....
(passive DI's also exist, but are often sonically inferior, or lack the switched attenuation options... )
I see 2 flaws with your suggestion:
1) The BOSE amplifier does not take a conventional line input voltage as used by everybody else - most of these convertors will not allow the correct range of voltages to be used with aftermarket head units, especially those that employ any form of digital encoder for volume incrementation
2) The BOSE system is really accoustically outdated, and really not worth investing the time and expense in trying to solve the problem - ripping out and replacing the system with an aftermarket speaker option is still cheaper and sounds much better.
Since the Omega BOSE system came out near 20 years ago, Speaker technology has moved on considerably, unlike many of the Omega owners who have not.
:-X
TBF, it does still sound better than most of the factory fitted rubbish that's around even now. Agreed their is much better out there if someone wants to pay someone like you a lot of money, but as maxV6 says there are a lot of reasons not to do it- especially if you don't want to fit a load of kit that screams "please steal me" to all the chavs & have to call autoglass the next morning.
I really don't see why dave, you are so dead set against people like MaxV6 (who is obviously more than qualified), trying to help others out- unless you feel it will take work away from you?
Surely this is the whole point of forums like this, to help people with less knowledge or experience?
I for one welcome any help offered in any area of omega's, and will always be glad to offer what little I can
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Max, have you ever considered an Elite?
The Bose system amplifies all speaker feeds (6 channels - 4 full range in the doors and 2 subs in the boot) in the box under the parcel shelf (elsewhere on an Estate).
The Bose box is fed from the original 4 head unit speaker outputs but the head units are configured to output a lower level (but not as low as conventional line level) hence it can't be fed from a "standard" aftermarket head unit.
Nothing that clever happens in the head unit - the output is still fed from the same amplifier chips so I suspect it just turns on some attenuation to reduce the level into the bose amps.
I need to configure a head unit for Bose sometime and have a look at the output with a test CD playing just to confirm.
I think it's quite likely that a simple solution exists to drive one from the output of an aftermarket head unit. As you say, probably just a combined dummy load and attenuator giving a balanced pair from each speaker output.
Only slight fly in the ointment might be if there's anything weird like extra filtering applied in the head unit. Doubtful, IMHO. There's clearly a crossover for the sub in the Bose amp anyway so why wouldn't it all be done there?
Kevin
I had the same thoughts about testing the OP when configured for Bose & not, but lacking a decent scope & tech2 to switch it back & forth for comparison makes it difficult. This would, with a white or pink noise generator (or even a copy of Stephen Court's sound check cd!!) also tell if their is any extra filtering, where it is in the frequency band, and how to replicate it at componant level or even with a ready-made processor
That, I would think would be the easy bit
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Apologies for the length of this, but I feel I have to reply to this in depth.
TBF, it does still sound better than most of the factory fitted rubbish that's around even now.
Completely agree, factory fitted stereos do nothing more that "hide" the rattles and squeaks of a poorly made car - the only reason they were fitted in the first place.
:y
Agreed their is much better out there if someone wants to pay someone like you a lot of money,
Actually, the upgrades I go on about are NOT that expensive - the original speakers cost less than a pound to produce, and some good speakers can be had for around £35 upwards - probably even less if you look for some good secondhand aftermarket speakers - if you want to go to the upper end of the audio performance, by all means come and see me, but I am more than happy to help those on a serious budget - just hate to see people wasting time and money. If you are going to spend the best part of a weekend pulling the car apart and replacing all this, why do people still insist on wasting all that effort by fitting the cheapest and poorest quaulity speakers.
but as maxV6 says there are a lot of reasons not to do it- especially if you don't want to fit a load of kit that screams "please steal me" to all the chavs & have to call autoglass the next morning.
Don`t understand what you are getting at? Can you actually SEE your speakers and amplifier then? No, didn`t think so - I`m all for retaining the original appearance of a classic car, and that means the head unit and anything visable - as far as hideaway amp and speakers, they can be replaced with better performing items and I do not see how anyone would know from the outside. Aftermarket speakers on the original head unit can sound very good - Its the BOSE system I have an issue with - it is very complex to fit, and the quality has been vastly overtaken nowadays
I really don't see why dave, you are so dead set against people like MaxV6 (who is obviously more than qualified), trying to help others out- unless you feel it will take work away from you?
Never said that I was dead set against anybody - nor have I ever questioned anybodys capabilities. If you read back over the years of this forum, you will see that this has all been tried and tested before and failed miserably - If people started to listen and do it properly, then yes, it would take a lot of repair work away from us, from people who keep blowing up thier BOSE equipment by thinking they know better. Philips went bust 10 years ago and spares for these units have long gone, so why not try to move forwards and keep some stereos alive, instead of keep blowing them up by trying the same old thing again and again.
Surely this is the whole point of forums like this, to help people with less knowledge or experience?
So why are you not listening to me then? I doubt there are many on ths forum with more car audio experience than me! However, you are right, thats exactly the point of the forums, but don`t ever think that the question you are asking hasn`t been asked before - read back through the archives first - there is some excellent articles covered by all sorts of experts - sadly, where it fails, is when people are too lazy to read what has preiously been tried or written.
I for one welcome any help offered in any area of omega's, and will always be glad to offer what little I can
Excellent - thats the attitude that keeps the forum alive - all help given to the forum is always appreciated by those in need. But I would like to explain to you the reason that I am on here.
I make no secret of the fact that I am not an Omega owner, nor fan, but I have a deep respect for anyone who wants to keep a classic car alive, and will do all I can to assist where I can. I was pointed towards this forum due to the sheer volume of blown stereos that kept turning up at our workshop after people had tried to fit them to Omegas with BOSE equipment, and this number has drastically reduced after people started to read what we, a car audio repair centre, had to say as a warning - people still spend the same money with me, that has not changed (Thank you), but they are now spending on improvements and upgrades rather than costly and unneccessary repairs.
BOSE works with BOSE
BOSE does NOT integrate with ANYTHING aftermarket
:P
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Going back to the Original post -
If you want to retro fit a subwoofer into the original locations on the Omega, it will not have escaped your attention that many of the Chav ones these days are physically to big and also very expensive.
Here`s a little tip -
Many of the "amplified" sub boxes from years ago, you may know the ones, the old fasioned smaller "tubes" and "enclosures" that had built in amplifiers, can provide a cheap way of doing things. Many of them can be cannibalised and ripped apart to give a small speaker that will retro fit into the Omega`s original subwoofer location without much effort, and also has an amplifier included that will alsmost certainly run off the rear speaker wires of a standard head unit, or even the RCA terminals with an aftermarket stereo. Best of all, they can be picked up for virtually nothing - not big enough and unwanted by the Chav`s, and if you find a new one at a car audio dealer, it will be covered in dust as they cannot give them away.
OK, it isn`t going to make your ears bleed - but it would certainly add a substantial amount of depth of sound to whatever you were listening to in the quiet cabin of the Omega.
;)
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In general, I'd say Dave's position is definitely covered by the terms "fair play" and fair comment,
technically, looking further at what kev has written, it seems far from impossible, IF DONE CORRECTLY...
HOWEVER.... given the 4 channel output requirement, the answer starts to get a little more expensive, but not necessarily crippllngly so... but certainly more than ideal.
appropriate level drop from hi power speaker feeds, not impossible, or even that difficult, dummy load on to original feed, not impossible... nor difficult... and BOTH must be done correctly....
but all in all, perhaps not financially sensible.... if you use ready made devices, you're looking at about £100 for 4 channels of audio to take an attenuated feed from speaker signals..... , and probably about another £80 for ready made, dummy loads rated suitably for the typical car system,
it's a lot cheaper if you build them yourself...... a basic resistive 16 ohm dummy load capable of handling 100W can be built for less than a fiver.... ditto for other impedances and power ratings....
+ the work of getting 9V power supplies in to the units, and running all that audio cabling....
simply adding BOSE to other systems, probably not a great ida, and i would concur that other speakers may provide a superior sonic result.... (although i see no reason why appropriate choices could not improve the bose system likewise)
all that said..... the interior of ANY car, is about as far from a perfect acoustic listening space as it's possible to get.....
.... so the BOSE system being acoustically out dated is frankly, IMHO irrelevant.... speaker technology hasn't in fact moved on THAT far since the release of this ..... (although to be fair, i'm not saying bose was anything like cutting edge...even when it was developed.... BOSE have some very strange ideas.... some of them actually work, and some do not.... or at least, not in the way their marketing department claims !! . )
transducer technologies are largely a mature technology, both incoming (microphones) and outgoing (speakers) sure , small steps have been made, but nothing earth shattering.... Amplifiers on the other hand, have come on enormously.... since the advent of audiophile quality class D designs, improvements in efficiency, weight, and noise levels have been stunning, however, in a car, you would NEVER notice any of that....
I'm NOT arguing with dave..... this , for me, is simply by way of interesting discussion, and just pointing to the fact that there are possibilities out there, if anyone is mad enough to actually want to try them....
personally, i'm gonna find a bose system and stick it in my MV6
SOMEHOW
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MaxV6,
I think you have summed it up almost perfectly
Yes, theoretically it should be possible, and certainly on paper it shouldn`t be that difficult - but definately cost prohibitive (so far) and probably not worth the effort. But you did miss out something also that needs to be taken into consideration - lack of space behind the head unit !!
After much research myself, along similar lines to your own thoughts, I have come up with a Porsche/BOSE adaptor that may fit the bill - but need to undergo some testing on it - as I am looking for an "off the shelf" item as few would have the skills to make something themselves.
Your thoughts about improving the already fited BOSE system are easy - there are commercially available 2 Ohm speakers that offer significant performance over the Bose ones - JBL did a range a while back
all that said..... the interior of ANY car, is about as far from a perfect acoustic listening space as it's possible to get.....
All the more reason to choose wisely !!
:y
In general, I'd say Dave's position is definitely covered by the terms "fair play" and fair comment,
Thank you ! :-[
But what drives me towards finding a solution to this is the comment made by Kevin Wood -
I think there's still some value in investigating this, however, if only to stop the repeated "How can I connect my Sony..... to my Bose system" threads.
:P
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Your thoughts about improving the already fited BOSE system are easy - there are commercially available 2 Ohm speakers that offer significant performance over the Bose ones - JBL did a range a while back
We discussed this a while back Dave, if a full set in the right physical sizes could be obtained I think this would possibly be about the easiest and, cost dependant, best upgrade that could be done to an existing Bose system.
Despite thier age, I still like the NCDC headunits with CID displays, The Nav element still gets you where you need to go and has the benefit that it doesn't attract unwanted attention when turned off! It has it's failings such as no Stereo Aux input but the FM Modulator you sell is the simplest route around that and the laser focus failure is always going to be an issue.... unless you have a stockpile of parts to fix these ::). Of course new parts are a no go area so slowly these will decline in line with the car numbers.
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personally, i'm gonna find a bose system and stick it in my MV6
Sums it up, really!!! ta! ;)
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Agreed their is much better out there if someone wants to pay someone like you a lot of money,
Actually, the upgrades I go on about are NOT that expensive - the original speakers cost less than a pound to produce, and some good speakers can be had for around £35 upwards - probably even less if you look for some good secondhand aftermarket speakers - if you want to go to the upper end of the audio performance, by all means come and see me, but I am more than happy to help those on a serious budget - just hate to see people wasting time and money. If you are going to spend the best part of a weekend pulling the car apart and replacing all this, why do people still insist on wasting all that effort by fitting the cheapest and poorest quaulity speakers.
This seems a little contradictory?
Surely the replacement HU with cd, & mp3 line in, plus 4 or 6 budget speakers, & replacing all the wiring (your words, not mine) plus labour can't be cheap, I'd be interested in a quote for a budget system for this?
but as maxV6 says there are a lot of reasons not to do it- especially if you don't want to fit a load of kit that screams "please steal me" to all the chavs & have to call autoglass the next morning.
Don`t understand what you are getting at? Can you actually SEE your speakers and amplifier then? No, didn`t think so - I`m all for retaining the original appearance of a classic car, and that means the head unit and anything visable - as far as hideaway amp and speakers, they can be replaced with better performing items and I do not see how anyone would know from the outside. Aftermarket speakers on the original head unit can sound very good - Its the BOSE system I have an issue with - it is very complex to fit, and the quality has been vastly overtaken nowadays
No, i can't see my amp or drivers, and I don't want to. The point is, no-one I know has ever had their car broken into by someone trying to steal a factory fitted HU, but I know plenty who've had AM HU's stolen, including the folding front blank panel type, & in one instance, a £70 halfords unit!
As for Bose being complex to fit, surely this either Vauxhall's problem, or up to the customer if they so desire to upgrade a non-Bose mig? Someone with your obvious Bose experience shouldn't find it complicated?!
You are also still missing the point with your "quality has been vastly overtaken nowadays" comment. Their are obviously a number of people around who, for whatever the reason, wish to keep the Bose system, but want the flexibility of a different HU. There are those (myself included) that think the Insignia is a better car than the mig (no debate pls, that's for another page!), but this forum is proof that their are a lot of people keeping their migs running, for any number of reasons- do you tell them they are all wrong?? That they should replace the car instead of changing the headlamp adjuster from plastic to metal (that someone on here made) "because quality has been vastly overtaken nowadays"?
I really don't see why dave, you are so dead set against people like MaxV6 (who is obviously more than qualified), trying to help others out- unless you feel it will take work away from you?
Never said that I was dead set against anybody - nor have I ever questioned anybodys capabilities. If you read back over the years of this forum, you will see that this has all been tried and tested before and failed miserably - If people started to listen and do it properly, then yes, it would take a lot of repair work away from us, from people who keep blowing up thier BOSE equipment by thinking they know better. Philips went bust 10 years ago and spares for these units have long gone, so why not try to move forwards and keep some stereos alive, instead of keep blowing them up by trying the same old thing again and again.
So you are saying that that's it? No-one else should try because some have failed? That's like saying " The Titanic sank, we shouldn't build anything that big again"
As long as people know the risks, which as you say, are well documented, then surely they should be free to try instead of being blatently told "it's impossible"? I've always believed that their is someone else out there who knows more than me in my chosen field, to believe otherwise is just asking to be made to look foolish.
Surely this is the whole point of forums like this, to help people with less knowledge or experience?
So why are you not listening to me then? I doubt there are many on ths forum with more car audio experience than me! However, you are right, thats exactly the point of the forums, but don`t ever think that the question you are asking hasn`t been asked before - read back through the archives first - there is some excellent articles covered by all sorts of experts - sadly, where it fails, is when people are too lazy to read what has preiously been tried or written.
I am listening, & have read all I can find. However, please see my point above. I once fixed a stage light with a thermostat from a combi boiler, because a plumber told me it was the same thing, and he was right. Doesn't make him a lampy, just shows lateral thinking. MaxV6 is not a car audio fitter, but clearly knows more than a lot about audio system design.
I agree with you about repetitive questions, although I have been guilty of this on other occasions, it takes a very long time to try & read everything on here on your chosen subject! I just think that the answer should be more like "read these threads, this is what's required, but nobody's managed to build it yet, and you are risking your HU" rather than a blanket "it can't be done"
Dave, I too mean no offence or flaming, but I got detention 6 times at school, because "there's no such thing as can't"
Taught me to keep trying!
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In general, I'd say Dave's position is definitely covered by the terms "fair play" and fair comment,
technically, looking further at what kev has written, it seems far from impossible, IF DONE CORRECTLY...
HOWEVER.... given the 4 channel output requirement, the answer starts to get a little more expensive, but not necessarily crippllngly so... but certainly more than ideal.
appropriate level drop from hi power speaker feeds, not impossible, or even that difficult, dummy load on to original feed, not impossible... nor difficult... and BOTH must be done correctly....
but all in all, perhaps not financially sensible.... if you use ready made devices, you're looking at about £100 for 4 channels of audio to take an attenuated feed from speaker signals..... , and probably about another £80 for ready made, dummy loads rated suitably for the typical car system,
it's a lot cheaper if you build them yourself...... a basic resistive 16 ohm dummy load capable of handling 100W can be built for less than a fiver.... ditto for other impedances and power ratings....
+ the work of getting 9V power supplies in to the units, and running all that audio cabling....
simply adding BOSE to other systems, probably not a great ida, and i would concur that other speakers may provide a superior sonic result.... (although i see no reason why appropriate choices could not improve the bose system likewise)
all that said..... the interior of ANY car, is about as far from a perfect acoustic listening space as it's possible to get.....
.... so the BOSE system being acoustically out dated is frankly, IMHO irrelevant.... speaker technology hasn't in fact moved on THAT far since the release of this ..... (although to be fair, i'm not saying bose was anything like cutting edge...even when it was developed.... BOSE have some very strange ideas.... some of them actually work, and some do not.... or at least, not in the way their marketing department claims !! . )
transducer technologies are largely a mature technology, both incoming (microphones) and outgoing (speakers) sure , small steps have been made, but nothing earth shattering.... Amplifiers on the other hand, have come on enormously.... since the advent of audiophile quality class D designs, improvements in efficiency, weight, and noise levels have been stunning, however, in a car, you would NEVER notice any of that....
I'm NOT arguing with dave..... this , for me, is simply by way of interesting discussion, and just pointing to the fact that there are possibilities out there, if anyone is mad enough to actually want to try them....
personally, i'm gonna find a bose system and stick it in my MV6
SOMEHOW
This sounds very much like the voice of someone who has been inside an 802 ;)
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inside, outside, underneath, behind, on top of, in front of, and in therapy because of...
::)
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inside, outside, underneath, behind, on top of, in front of, and in therapy because of...
::)
Yr either really thin, have dislocated wrists or a sharp saw...... prefer the 3rd option 8-)
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you missed an option, that is far superior.
a rather great big hammer.
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Ok, Some more I have to answer:
This seems a little contradictory?
Surely the replacement HU with cd, & mp3 line in, plus 4 or 6 budget speakers, & replacing all the wiring (your words, not mine) plus labour can't be cheap, I'd be interested in a quote for a budget system for this?
Quote:
We won`t do it - labour costs are not worth it for a budget system - If you are on a budget, then do it yourself - what you see is a list of what needs doing.
No, i can't see my amp or drivers, and I don't want to. The point is, no-one I know has ever had their car broken into by someone trying to steal a factory fitted HU, but I know plenty who've had AM HU's stolen, including the folding front blank panel type, & in one instance, a £70 halfords unit!
Who mentioned changing the head unit? We`re talking amp and speakers here with the original head unit being retained.
As for Bose being complex to fit, surely this either Vauxhall's problem, or up to the customer if they so desire to upgrade a non-Bose mig? Someone with your obvious Bose experience shouldn't find it complicated?!
I may be wrong here, but not sure BOSE was a aftermarket option, even by Vauxhall due to the amount of work required - it was a line fit system in production. And no, I personally don`t find it complicated - just pointless - very different argument.
So you are saying that that's it? No-one else should try because some have failed? That's like saying " The Titanic sank, we shouldn't build anything that big again"
Titanic wouldn`t have sank if someone had spotted the Iceberg - nothing wrong with the boat.
As long as people know the risks, which as you say, are well documented, then surely they should be free to try instead of being blatently told "it's impossible"? I've always believed that their is someone else out there who knows more than me in my chosen field, to believe otherwise is just asking to be made to look foolish.
Never said it CANT be done, just that the methods that keep being talked about when people jump on here at an early stage have all been tried before. Trying to share research and save everybody some time.
I once fixed a stage light with a thermostat from a combi boiler, because a plumber told me it was the same thing, and he was right. Doesn't make him a lampy, just shows lateral thinking.
Good for you - And I am all for some lateral thinking, problem is, very few are coming up with it - everyone just keeps going over the same old things that have failed previously. I have been looking into solutions using parts from other cars also - still undergoing research though - problem is, I`m spending more valuable time answering the same old questions instead of being able to move forwards.
MaxV6 is not a car audio fitter, but clearly knows more than a lot about audio system design.
A good asset to have on board then - hopefully he will share his research with the rest of us.
I agree with you about repetitive questions, although I have been guilty of this on other occasions, it takes a very long time to try & read everything on here on your chosen subject! I just think that the answer should be more like "read these threads, this is what's required, but nobody's managed to build it yet, and you are risking your HU" rather than a blanket "it can't be done"
Sorry, but there still remains blanket advice of "it cant be done" until somebody actually proves otherwise.
but I got detention 6 times at school, because "there's no such thing as can't"
Then why not conduct some research of your own and try to HELP ?
you missed an option, that is far superior.
a rather great big hammer.
Now you are talking my language
::)
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a little off-topic, but can I compliment you all on being able to have a proper, honest discussion where everyone listens to everyone else's point of view and can disagree without over-reacting, mud-slinging or otherwise taking it all too seriously.
this is what a web forum should be all about !
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a little off-topic, but can I compliment you all on being able to have a proper, honest discussion where everyone listens to everyone else's point of view and can disagree without over-reacting, mud-slinging or otherwise taking it all too seriously.
this is what a web forum should be all about !
You have no idea how much your comments are appreciated !!
There is always the danger of either offending people, or becoming too arrogant and "holyer than thou" so its really comforting to know that others reading this thread can see a "balanced" discussion.
To be fair, its one of the reasons that keeps me coming back to the Oof forum - very few other forums have as many active members that contribute in such a firendly and helpfull way.
:y
Ok, enough flattery, now what are you really after ?
:P
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well, now you mention it......
no, absolutely nothing I need just now.
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As for Bose being complex to fit, surely this either Vauxhall's problem, or up to the customer if they so desire to upgrade a non-Bose mig? Someone with your obvious Bose experience shouldn't find it complicated?!
I may be wrong here, but not sure BOSE was a aftermarket option, even by Vauxhall due to the amount of work required - it was a line fit system in production. And no, I personally don`t find it complicated - just pointless - very different argument.
My apologies, you said complex, not complicated :-?
So you are saying that that's it? No-one else should try because some have failed? That's like saying " The Titanic sank, we shouldn't build anything that big again"
Titanic wouldn`t have sank if someone had spotted the Iceberg - nothing wrong with the boat.
I suggest you read the latest research, there was plenty wrong with the boat- not least the lack of lifeboats!
As long as people know the risks, which as you say, are well documented, then surely they should be free to try instead of being blatently told "it's impossible"? I've always believed that their is someone else out there who knows more than me in my chosen field, to believe otherwise is just asking to be made to look foolish.
Never said it CANT be done, just that the methods that keep being talked about when people jump on here at an early stage have all been tried before. Trying to share research and save everybody some time.
Er, I also suggest you read your own post a few lines down, I've highlighted it for you ;D
MaxV6 is not a car audio fitter, but clearly knows more than a lot about audio system design.
A good asset to have on board then - hopefully he will share his research with the rest of us.
Agreed!
I agree with you about repetitive questions, although I have been guilty of this on other occasions, it takes a very long time to try & read everything on here on your chosen subject! I just think that the answer should be more like "read these threads, this is what's required, but nobody's managed to build it yet, and you are risking your HU" rather than a blanket "it can't be done"
Sorry, but there still remains blanket advice of "it cant be done" until somebody actually proves otherwise.
but I got detention 6 times at school, because "there's no such thing as can't"
Then why not conduct some research of your own and try to HELP ?
If I owned a decent 'scope, I would have by now!
you missed an option, that is far superior.
a rather great big hammer.
Now you are talking my language
::)[/quote]
If you were familiar with the 802, you would be amazed how right you are!!
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a little off-topic, but can I compliment you all on being able to have a proper, honest discussion where everyone listens to everyone else's point of view and can disagree without over-reacting, mud-slinging or otherwise taking it all too seriously.
this is what a web forum should be all about !
You have no idea how much your comments are appreciated !!
There is always the danger of either offending people, or becoming too arrogant and "holyer than thou" so its really comforting to know that others reading this thread can see a "balanced" discussion.
To be fair, its one of the reasons that keeps me coming back to the Oof forum - very few other forums have as many active members that contribute in such a firendly and helpfull way.
:P
Agreed & thanks also!
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this is what a web forum should be all about !
[\quote]
Fully agree, discussion conducted in a very gentlemanly manner and is a credit to all who contributed. Not to mention, interesting as well. :y
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I'll second that. I'll also make a mental note to myself to not get too wound up if people disagree with me....after all its not their fault if theyre wrong! :y :y
[Joking!] Very informative, gents, and thanks for saving me from throwing good money after bad.
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If you were familiar with the 802, you would be amazed how right you are!!
Please excuse the ignorance - What is an 802 ?
:-?
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A speaker: http://www.bose.com/controller?event=view_static_page_event&url=/professional/on_stage/loudspeakers/802_series_3.jsp
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A speaker: http://www.bose.com/controller?event=view_static_page_event&url=/professional/on_stage/loudspeakers/802_series_3.jsp
:y
Thanks -
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I got detention 6 times at school, because "there's no such thing as can't"
;D
I went to that school too! It would seem that 'won't' is not an answer either. ::)
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A speaker: http://www.bose.com/controller?event=view_static_page_event&url=/professional/on_stage/loudspeakers/802_series_3.jsp
:y
Thanks -
You were better off not knowing....... fantastic for voice reproduction, but pretty useless for anything else. It's doesn't come apart, and the x-over is screwed to the inside front accessible only through one of the driver holes- hence the dislocated wrist comment!
I got detention 6 times at school, because "there's no such thing as can't"
;D
I went to that school too! It would seem that 'won't' is not an answer either. ::)
Ah, "won't" got me a smack with a ruler....
For the younger members, no the teacher didn't get arrested/sued/struck off, those were the days :-/
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Ah, the 802’s, Bose’s introduction to Key Hole Surgery to the audio world! Think it was more a case of someone at Bose saying We seem to have a load of speaker’s components sitting on the shelf, let’s see how many we can cram into a box and knock em out as speakers. ‘Wide-range reproduction over a broad dispersion area’ Bose claim and then you look at the Frequency Response, 55Hz to 16kHz ±3dB, says it all really, still at least they managed to wire all the drivers up properly and get 8 ohms.
I believe it was the early 901’s that Bose decided to go off the beaten track by claiming there’s no point in having a perfect Flat Response sound system, when there’s no such thing as a Flat Response Speaker (well if there is, We cant make them). So lets design and build a speaker, see where the flaws are, then sell the customer a preamp EQ box to make up the difference on our speaker design (Predominately Bass and Treble boosting) in order to achieve the so called Bose flat response! Bose seem to have stayed on this lateral thinking of modifying spec, compared to the rest of the Planet, ever since in there designs.
Interesting thread though, makes a good read.
Chris ;)
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Ah, the 802’s, Bose’s introduction to Key Hole Surgery to the audio world! Think it was more a case of someone at Bose saying We seem to have a load of speaker’s components sitting on the shelf, let’s see how many we can cram into a box and knock em out as speakers. ‘Wide-range reproduction over a broad dispersion area’ Bose claim and then you look at the Frequency Response, 55Hz to 16kHz ±3dB, says it all really, still at least they managed to wire all the drivers up properly and get 8 ohms.
I believe it was the early 901’s that Bose decided to go off the beaten track by claiming there’s no point in having a perfect Flat Response sound system, when there’s no such thing as a Flat Response Speaker (well if there is, We cant make them). So lets design and build a speaker, see where the flaws are, then sell the customer a preamp EQ box to make up the difference on our speaker design (Predominately Bass and Treble boosting) in order to achieve the so called Bose flat response! Bose seem to have stayed on this lateral thinking of modifying spec, compared to the rest of the Planet, ever since in there designs.
Interesting thread though, makes a good read.
Chris ;)
Haha, like your thinking!
I would like to point out that this is probably the only bose box is history to have something resembling a standard ohmage (yes, I know it's impeadence, but amps=amperage, volts=voltage, & watts=wattage, so why not ohmage?!!)
I have the curve info for the 802 "system controller", as I had reason to put it into a DSP, and you are right on the money!
Bose do some things very well, the Wave Radio for example sounds stunning for it's size, & the 802 is great for voice reproduction/conferencing etc, but as I said before, they have some very funny ideas!