Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: ngrainqey on 29 November 2011, 18:50:13
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Hello,
just a bit of a debate time maybe or not depending if it gets shot down with a big AA gun lol!
firstly... Can you use the piezo crystal newer injectors on the omega if they're the same flow rate for example or do you need the ones like the standard omega ones with the springy tyre valve old school rubbish in it?
and secondly even though the gains are foooook alll....
I was thinking about remapping the 2.6 blah blah this and that, exhaust and stuff and would fit a little bit bigger injectors rather than just that stupid fuel pressure regulator shite which i'd probably fit anyway
oh sod it...lastly am i right in thinking on the facelifts you can just chop the second cats out on the downpipe after the lambda probes for long term fuel trim?
thanks
alex
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Be interesting to see if they make any difference, if you can fit them - I'm as far removed from an expert as Rita Sullivan, but I'd imagine getting the injectors to talk to the ECU might be tricky?
>watches with interest<
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2.6 has same injectors as the 3.2 so it would be fair to say they are generously proportioned for that engine. ;D
You can fit bigger ones, but it'll make precisely no difference as the ECU will trim the fuel back to where it was before.
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thanks for that woody...
do you know how far the ecu can trim the fueling back and if the omega injectors are e.g EV6 or EV1 or EV14 for example? on my old T5 there was a certain percentage that the ecu could trim back fuel for the injectors as i was running 470cc ones on that
i have some bosch 390cc injectors and i'd be having it mapped if i put bigger injectors in anyway along with catback, possibly headers if i can be bothered and 3.0/3.2 cams and different intake like the steinmetz even though they're rarer than rockin horse plops lol!
thanks
alex
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If you pump more fuel in, you need more air. This is where NA engines will fall over, as not a massive amount you can do - with forced induction you can overcome this to an extent.
The ECU will monitor how rich/lean the burn is, and trim down/up to ensure its right. If the trims go too far from what it expects (20% on the long term trims on a 2.6), the ecu will flag this, and most likely use some kind of limp (maybe, maybe not noticibly reduced power).
I think there is probably mileage in higher flowing injectors if the std ones are borderline, or if you are tweaking forced induction engines, but I would not expect any gains whatsoever on the Omega.
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I can't remember the exact injector but the part number is on here somewhere.. They are Bosch, 0280155xxx where xxx is the bit I can't remember. ;D
They are high impedance (12 ohm IIRC), around 250cc/min @ 3BAR and, on the 2.6 and 3.2, operate at 3.8 BAR IIRC.
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0280155045 i think and +1 TB unless i force it in a bit lol!
what can be done about say porting the intake manifold spacer and intake manifold for example to increase cross sectional area and throttle butterflies?
thanks
alex
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urm... can i remove the second cats lol?
alex
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urm... can i remove the second cats lol?
alex
Yes, but it'll fail the MOT emissions test.
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really :/ ? thats a bit pants, i thought the long term fuel trim lambda was before the second cat?
alex
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You need the second cat to pass the emissions test. Could probably do away wit the pre-cat, though, as they die on most Omegas anyway.
Mixture control lambda sensor is before all the cats otherwise it would get a false reading. ;)
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After numerous discussions on this, the general feeling is that the exhaust manifold is, afawct, the restrictive part for air flow due to the gm tune for low down grunt and a flat power curve needed for a passenger orientated executive car. (think chaufer driven at one end of the scale, up to police persuit at the other)
OE Exhaust manifolds are a plenum style used for flow at low revs and avoid the peaky delivery which might suit someone like yourself. So, general advice is manufacture some tubular manifolds with tube lengths optimised for scavenging exhaust gases at high rpm. Not cheap.
It will then hopefully allow more induction air in, as the exhaust gases from adjacant cylinders firing through the manifold suck air in to the cylinders from the imtake. Result, more air flow, THEN you'll need to pile more petrol in, and only then will you know if the injectors are capable of keeping up or not.
Fit the highest flow injectors in the world, it will only match the available air flow to the correct mixture. So increase air flow first.
Sports cats arent too offensive, and the pre cats can go as they are buggered by now amyway.
As i understand it anyway. New manifolds are unproven on here though i think? Due to cost?
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oh i totally agree about the manifolds chris, the vxr engine has restrictive manifolds and intercooler pipework
if i can be bothered to then i'll take the ac compressor off and put a supercharger on it lol! it'd need different intake pipework mind but its not 'that' much work
alex
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oh i totally agree about the manifolds chris, the vxr engine has restrictive manifolds and intercooler pipework
if i can be bothered to then i'll take the ac compressor off and put a supercharger on it lol! it'd need different intake pipework mind but its not 'that' much work
alex
Historically, thats been a good route to blow the bottom end out, and is exactly how the ls1 v8 omega came into existance. For road use keep it normally aspirated unless you want to drive around near the hard shoulder covering the clutch all the time.
260-270bhp max ...?
Funny how these conversations always lead to the door of a v8 ;D
Normally aspirated tuning; alot of effort and expense for little gain and knocking on the door of reliability issues.
Forced induction; fair bit of effort and expence, hand granade on wheels.
Other lump, mega bucks for LS v8. Alot of work and a tight fit. Bit if a jump from bigger injectors though. ;D
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Or, buy a 3,2.
Or fit a 3.2 lump. Probably easiest if you want go keep that particular car...?
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lol i thought about a 2.8 vxr engine :P
it'll fit, its just a case of an ecu that'll run it and the speedo and tach will work :/
alex
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lol i thought about a 2.8 vxr engine :P
it'll fit, its just a case of an ecu that'll run it and the speedo and tach will work :/
alex
V8 would be easier, at least it's the right way round ::).
To drop that engine in an Omega, you'd need to cut out the fire wall so that the turbo could sit somewhere between where the wiper mech lives and the heater box.
Might get away with turning the manifolds to face the front of the engine instead of the back, but will still be less work to drop a v8 in. :-\
As an aside is there any scope in 'stroking' the engine? STR that the 'Cologne' lumps in the old Granadas could be taken to 3.7 litres :-\
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Not familiar with it, but the heads look way too wide. Bit like the north star, which is also enormous, twin cam heads from a front wheel drive will never fit in omega, esp with a wider v angle.
Ls* v8 is far more compact, and even that is tight, both to steering box and routing exhaust manifold down the transmission tunnel. But then theres the cost and supply issues, and beefing up the drive train. Brakes too.
Still say drop a 3.2 in.
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The brakes would need looking at with the 2.8, Vectras were 280bhp out of the box, Insignia version is well over 300. :-\
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The brakes would need looking at with the 2.8, Vectras were 280bhp out of the box, Insignia version is well over 300. :-\
Brakes are for wimps. :D
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The brakes would need looking at with the 2.8, Vectras were 280bhp out of the box, Insignia version is well over 300. :-\
Brakes are for wimps. :D
Think you need a spin with TB. ;D
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Recall master saying there were issues putting the 2.8 in a RWD car :-\
Either way, if someone was going to all the hassle of putting a non-standard engine in, would have to be a V8 lump :)
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Ls1 from about 1400 dollars in the states. :-X
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Ls1 from about 1400 dollars in the states. :-X
Plus probably about $600 shipping, 20% VAT and say 4% duty.. about £1600? Maybe £2.5k for an LS3 cut-out already in the UK .. if you can find one (the only one on eBay is £3500!).
Plus about the same again to have manifolds made (unless you know people or are handy with a welder), another few hundred for exhausts.. couple of hundred for a clutch, manual conversion bits..
Power never comes cheap ;)
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Fitting the engine is the easy bit, it's basic fabrication. Getting the car's systems to work with it is the challenging part. There's no point in having the ABS, TCA, climate control etc not working.
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And, should be remembered that an Omega will never ever be a sports car, not even a high performance car, no matter what lump you put in it. Just too heavy for that kind of purposes not to mention the suspension setup which is made for comfort cruise.
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And, should be remembered that an Omega will never ever be a sports car, not even a high performance car, no matter what lump you put in it. Just too heavy for that kind of purposes not to mention the suspension setup which is made for comfort cruise.
Yes, but it can certainly be improved with... reasonably impresive results. :)
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Ls1 from about 1400 dollars in the states. :-X
Plus probably about $600 shipping, 20% VAT and say 4% duty.. about £1600? Maybe £2.5k for an LS3 cut-out already in the UK .. if you can find one (the only one on eBay is £3500!).
Plus about the same again to have manifolds made (unless you know people or are handy with a welder), another few hundred for exhausts.. couple of hundred for a clutch, manual conversion bits..
Power never comes cheap ;)
Availability is the problem here, drive train too.
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And, should be remembered that an Omega will never ever be a sports car, not even a high performance car, no matter what lump you put in it. Just too heavy for that kind of purposes not to mention the suspension setup which is made for comfort cruise.
VXR8 goes rather well ;)
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Availability is the problem here, drive train too.
TKO500 would be more than man enough - about £1400 imported, I think.. unless you want over 500lb/ft, then TKO600 or T56 Magnum for another £500 or so I think. Although readily available at a premium from places like www.realsteel.com already in the country (standard T56 is over £2k from them, however)..
Or there's always the Quaife QBE69G heavy duty 6 speed sequential for an eye watering £7k+VAT :o ;D
[edit] I've been checking out gearbox recently, as you can tell ;) trying to work out if I can justify £7k for the sequential box and another £3k for the flat-shift clutchless paddle actuator system..
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Or there's always the Quaife QBE69G heavy duty 6 speed sequential for an eye watering £7k+VAT :o ;D
Oops! I think I've had an accident. :-*
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Or there's always the Quaife QBE69G heavy duty 6 speed sequential for an eye watering £7k+VAT :o ;D
Oops! I think I've had an accident. :-*
I was looking at the Geartronics (http://www.geartronics.co.uk/) paddle shift actuator to go with it, but I'm honestly not sure I could stand the extra on the build budget..
..almost worth breaking the budget just to see the reaction of the Cobra lot to a sequentially shifting Cobra with bucket seats though ;D ;D
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The brakes would need looking at with the 2.8, Vectras were 280bhp out of the box, Insignia version is well over 300. :-\
Brakes are for wimps. :D
I like brakes. JUst as well, as I buy lots of them ::)
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..almost worth breaking the budget just to see the reaction of the Cobra lot to a sequentially shifting Cobra with bucket seats though ;D ;D
It'll be about the same as when a mate of mine emigrated to Aus., taking his mental Caterham with 240 BHP, 9k RPM, all-steel-internals K series, shod with Avon CR500s with him. Turned up (sideways, knowing him) at the local kit car meet only to find they were all "wicker basket on the back" Morgan types. ;D
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It'll be about the same as when a mate of mine emigrated to Aus., taking his mental Caterham with 240 BHP, 9k RPM, all-steel-internals K series, shod with Avon CR500s with him. Turned up (sideways, knowing him) at the local kit car meet only to find they were all "wicker basket on the back" Morgan types. ;D
;D ;D ;D I'd love to have seen their faces!
And true enough, I'm already known as "That bloke with the hideous yellow seats" (which I will get retrimmed in something a little more understated!) or "That bloke who wants a digital dash".. ;D