Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: albitz on 15 December 2011, 15:14:23
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Whats it going to take to turn back the tide ? When will the liberal elite admit they have got it wrong.The offenders cant continually be treated as the victims.We need punishment and we need a deterrent. >:(
http://www.parentdish.co.uk/2011/12/15/gang-of-nine-who-smashed-autistic-teenage-girls-face-escape-punishment/?ncid=webmail6
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I despair >:(
With no punishment or deterrent what message does that give other ner-do-wells
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Marvellous stuff.
A Lincolnshire Police spokeswoman said the case was passed to the Youth Offending Team who decided not to press charges but to give a caution for common assault.
She said: "Age is a factor in the decision but everything would have been taken into account."
There is no hope. She wants sacking
And the parents of these yobs? When we were kids our dad would have belted us black and blue if we had assaulted someone like that.
So the fault is with the parents generation. We ought to be making a stand. take a court action against the police for inappropriate action and one against the kids/their parents. Isn't there something called the European Court of Human Rights for just such injustices?
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Getting the arrest(s) and taking the case to court would have smacked too much of real police work for the Youth Offending Team, I fear - 9-5, officebound, woolly-headed liberals, I suspect. This is what happens when the officers on the ground have to follow procedures and refer cases to ineffectual specialist teams earning the same wage as the officers on the ground, getting their hands dirty.
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Not far from me this one. Disgusting behaviour and ineffective justice :(
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FFS >:( >:(
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And another one.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2074437/Rapist-asylum-seeker-dumped-victim-rubbish-tip-released-dodging-deportation.html
And another.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/12/14/teen-s-facebook-gloat-after-he-escaped-jail-for-attack-on-oaps-home-115875-23633592/
Govt wants to give kids lessons in finance. Maybe lessons in respect should be higher up the agenda.
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This country is beyond a joke >:(
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Are you trying to twist my diddies son? I've been on a fairly even keel today (up to the moment at least) - almost bearable according to my wife. :(
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shows how breaked our legal system is >:(
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The Justice System DOES work and the Police Service IS always happy to prosecute, but ONLY EASY TARGETS err...like You & Me! >:( If any of us had come upon that poor lass being brayed senseless and merely grabbed one of those Scrotes, we would have been banged up immediately and at least done for Assault! The Justice System stinks in the UK, as does the Police Service (I don't mean the ordinary Copper here, although a fair few bad apples tend to spoil the rest of the barrel) and the Immigration Service etc; etc, etc. From Government, down through Parliament, to Local Government, the whole bloody edifice is creaking under the weight of Greed, Ineptitude, Stupidity & Criminality! The UK is a bloody Disgraceful Shambles! >:(
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theres only one way for justice imo eye for an eye tooth for a tooth plus maybe some interest...these people know the system and work it always in their favour
sometimes these do gooders just take thier powers or hobbies a little to far
other countries dont break around with law breakers and they look after their own first
dont think its all the police's fault some of the time thier hands are tied having to be politicaly correct
citizen Albs Smith is on the war path again :y
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theres only one way for justice imo eye for an eye tooth for a tooth plus maybe some interest...these people know the system and work it always in their favour
sometimes these do gooders just take thier powers or hobbies a little to far
other countries dont break around with law breakers and they look after their own first
dont think its all the police's fault some of the time thier hands are tied having to be politicaly correct
citizen Albs Smith is on the war path again :y
What does that look like then? Sharia law perhaps. I see a lot of comments like that but then the same people are quick to condem Sharia law!!
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theres only one way for justice imo eye for an eye tooth for a tooth plus maybe some interest...these people know the system and work it always in their favour
sometimes these do gooders just take thier powers or hobbies a little to far
other countries dont break around with law breakers and they look after their own first
dont think its all the police's fault some of the time thier hands are tied having to be politicaly correct
citizen Albs Smith is on the war path again :y
What does that look like then? Sharia law perhaps. I see a lot of comments like that but then the same people are quick to condem Sharia law!!
so why the break have you just brought islam into it maybe the quote has religious roots but certainley do not see it as being meant in this way on this thread ffs I dont condem islam but i do condem those that kill the inocent in the name of religion
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>:( >:( >:( >:(
piano wire a locked room and her mum see if they laugh ater that
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It is really good to see so many experts on Law and it's enforcement here on OOF :)
Just a shame that none of you appear to have the slightest knowledge, or interest, in the accuracy of your pontifications.
Quite amazing really, how the same people are wrong about the same things on so many similar occasions .....
but if it makes you feel better......
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Entwood,
So exactly what is your point??
I don't profess to be an expert in Law or its Enforement I can only comment on what I see, and believe as a member of the public..
My personal experience of our boys in blue is that over the years they have gone for for the easy life to manage statisitcs. I do know that in a crisis they go above and beyond. When it comes to everyday criminality they are worse than useless :( :( :( PSO ( or whatever they call plastic coppers) are a complete waste of time and money, get more Bobby's on the beat.
The judges and courts need to get real to PUNISH & DETER. :y :y
Now if you know better then I am more than happy to listen to your solution to this crazy judicial system of ours. For examle why do we sentence people to a term of imprisonment knowing full well they will serve half of it, and at least a third of the remaining in an open prison in relative luxury to the conditions they live in on the outside.
We do not need Liberal attitudes when it comes to protecting society >:(
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Imho, the general policeing in this country varies depending on where you live Entwood.
In a relitive sleepy hollow like were you live, the police may pretty aproachable, easy to get on with and do a reasonable job.
But ................... If you go out into the bigger citys, the policeing is a joke >:( >:(
When you have to put up with it on a day to day basis then read about some of the thinks that are going on in this country, you tend to vent your spleen a little ;)
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Ok .. in simple terms... complaints in this, and other threads over "justice" (?)... although vigilante might be more appropriate sometimes... always revolve around inadequate punishment and the "letting off" of people ... even when not proven guilty.
So .. some FACTS .. not suppositions or conversations on the "outrage bus"
1. The police in the England & Wales do NOT, and CANNOT, prosecute anyone. They investigate an incident and pass the papers to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) for an adult, or the Youth Offending Team (YOT) for a youth (under 18), the YOT will confer with CPS on some matters but not all. IT IS NOW OUT OF POLICE HANDS.
2. The CPS/YOT will read and analyse the police file and decide the charges, if any. No one else has any input
3.The case will then proceed via certain levels, Magistrates Court or Youth Court, Crown Court and at any time the case can be dropped by CPS or the Defendant can plead guilty at which case things stop. If the case goes to Trial and a Guity verdict is passed a sentence can made.
4. Both Magistrates Courts and Crown Courts are limited BY LAW to the sentences they can pass, and the Structured Sentencing Rules they MUST apply. There is very little "wriggle room" in those rules.
5. The Sentencing Guidlines Council produce the rules .. and that is a body set up by Parliament ... yup .. the government that was voted in lead by a certain Mr Blair, so lets have no rubbish about "our Dave" being soft .. the damage was done way before him.
6. Youth Courts/YOT are also controlled by the same rules.
7. The Press you all like to quote, and apparently believe, exist to sell newspapers, and therefore print what you want to read, which is a long way from the truth in many cases. It does not make good sense for them to print "The magistrates were not allowed to sentence this man to 10 years for assault as Mr Angry wanted but under the guidlines could only fine him for spitting".. but the headline "man who spat on child let off lightly" will sell more papers.
8. Finally, the Police, Judges, Magistrates, YOT, CPS, even the MP's who draft the rules are all Human Beings and quite capable of making mistakes ... I note the Outrage bus like to blame "THE police" THE government" "THE courts" .... these items don't exist as thinking entities .. but are a collection of people doing their best within the rules they are constrained by.
If you want it different go to Syria and see what a Dictatorship is like.
For those who might be interested ..
http://sentencingcouncil.judiciary.gov.uk/sentencing-guidelines.htm
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Kin ell Nige, deep breath :)
Fully understand where your coming from and agree 100% but at the end of the day, the police represent the face of the legal system and thus tend to get some stick over things like this.
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Ok .. in simple terms... complaints in this, and other threads over "justice" (?)... although vigilante might be more appropriate sometimes... always revolve around inadequate punishment and the "letting off" of people ... even when not proven guilty.
So .. some FACTS .. not suppositions or conversations on the "outrage bus"
1. The police in the England & Wales do NOT, and CANNOT, prosecute anyone. They investigate an incident and pass the papers to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) for an adult, or the Youth Offending Team (YOT) for a youth (under 18), the YOT will confer with CPS on some matters but not all. IT IS NOW OUT OF POLICE HANDS.
2. The CPS/YOT will read and analyse the police file and decide the charges, if any. No one else has any input
3.The case will then proceed via certain levels, Magistrates Court or Youth Court, Crown Court and at any time the case can be dropped by CPS or the Defendant can plead guilty at which case things stop. If the case goes to Trial and a Guity verdict is passed a sentence can made.
4. Both Magistrates Courts and Crown Courts are limited BY LAW to the sentences they can pass, and the Structured Sentencing Rules they MUST apply. There is very little "wriggle room" in those rules.
5. The Sentencing Guidlines Council produce the rules .. and that is a body set up by Parliament ... yup .. the government that was voted in lead by a certain Mr Blair, so lets have no rubbish about "our Dave" being soft .. the damage was done way before him.
6. Youth Courts/YOT are also controlled by the same rules.
7. The Press you all like to quote, and apparently believe, exist to sell newspapers, and therefore print what you want to read, which is a long way from the truth in many cases. It does not make good sense for them to print "The magistrates were not allowed to sentence this man to 10 years for assault as Mr Angry wanted but under the guidlines could only fine him for spitting".. but the headline "man who spat on child let off lightly" will sell more papers.
8. Finally, the Police, Judges, Magistrates, YOT, CPS, even the MP's who draft the rules are all Human Beings and quite capable of making mistakes ... I note the Outrage bus like to blame "THE police" THE government" "THE courts" .... these items don't exist as thinking entities .. but are a collection of people doing their best within the rules they are constrained by.
If you want it different go to Syria and see what a Dictatorship is like.
For those who might be interested ..
http://sentencingcouncil.judiciary.gov.uk/sentencing-guidelines.htm
rubbish and you know it they are not consistent in sentancing example white girl in eltham slaps a muslim for gobbing off white girl gets 4 months in prison the white girl in question has no previous convictions group of muslim girls beat the shit out of a white girl and get away as they are not used to drinking now tell me theres not something wrong with the whole legal system in this country
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Imho, the general policeing in this country varies depending on where you live Entwood.
In a relitive sleepy hollow like were you live, the police may pretty aproachable, easy to get on with and do a reasonable job.
But ................... If you go out into the bigger citys, the policeing is a joke >:( >:(
When you have to put up with it on a day to day basis then read about some of the thinks that are going on in this country, you tend to vent your spleen a little ;)
the old bill where i live do a great job and take a no nonsense approach but go to places a little more into central london and its tottally different
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I agree with much of what Nige says,but the system and its rules and methods of applying the rules are very badly skewed imo.
Yes the previous govt.did untold damage to real justuce (and just about everything else) in this country, but the new Govt. have it within their powers to change this - within the constraints of EU law of course. :-X
Imo Dave should start by sacking Ken Clarke and replacing him with someone who is still articulate of thought and speech and connected with reality rather than a silly old sod who is completely out of touch.Its sad,because he was a brilliant Chancellor in his day,but he is clueless about Britain and its problems in the 21st century.
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rubbish and you know it they are not consistent in sentancing example white girl in eltham slaps a muslim for gobbing off white girl gets 4 months in prison the white girl in question has no previous convictions group of muslim girls beat the shit out of a white girl and get away as they are not used to drinking now tell me theres not something wrong with the whole legal system in this country
Very tempted to ignore your post as not worth answering, but in the interests of "providing balance" I will give a very short riposte, from the VERY LIMITED KNOWLEDGE I have of the matters (but probably more than you have bothered to research)
The girl in Eltham was charged with a "Racially Aggravated Assault" ... a "specified crime" under Chapter 5 of the Criminal Justice Act and sentenced under section 224 of that act and has a range of discharge to a maximum sentence of 26 weeks custody.
The muslim girls were charged with Common Assault (Section 39) which has a range of discharge to "High Level Community Order"
The decisions on what charges were laid were made by the relevant CPS units. The Judiciary have no say on the charges but must abide by the guidelines when sentencing.
In simple terms .. you and the press are not comparing like with like ... but hey .. as long as the Outrage Bus has something to shout about ....
and BTW rubbish and you know it
is more applicable to your response than mine :)
I, at least, try to respond factually.
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rubbish and you know it they are not consistent in sentancing example white girl in eltham slaps a muslim for gobbing off white girl gets 4 months in prison the white girl in question has no previous convictions group of muslim girls beat the shit out of a white girl and get away as they are not used to drinking now tell me theres not something wrong with the whole legal system in this country
Very tempted to ignore your post as not worth answering, but in the interests of "providing balance" I will give a very short riposte, from the VERY LIMITED KNOWLEDGE I have of the matters (but probably more than you have bothered to research)
The girl in Eltham was charged with a "Racially Aggravated Assault" ... a "specified crime" under Chapter 5 of the Criminal Justice Act and sentenced under section 224 of that act and has a range of discharge to a maximum sentence of 26 weeks custody.
The muslim girls were charged with Common Assault (Section 39) which has a range of discharge to "High Level Community Order"
The decisions on what charges were laid were made by the relevant CPS units. The Judiciary have no say on the charges but must abide by the guidelines when sentencing.
In simple terms .. you and the press are not comparing like with like ... but hey .. as long as the Outrage Bus has something to shout about ....
and BTW rubbish and you know it
is more applicable to your response than mine :)
I, at least, try to respond factually.
Entwood, you know more than I on this & so not knocking what you've told us. The question is ref the statement about the white girl slapping a muslim etc. If she was prosecuted on racial grounds, how is it that the group of muslim girls were not prosecuted under the same grounds, for attacking a white girl??
I appreciate we/you can only speculate why, but I think that is why people are getting so irate, there doesn't "appear" to be fairness :-\
IMHO, I feel for the police on the ground as they can only do so much, after that it's pen-pushers that wreck it!
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rubbish and you know it they are not consistent in sentancing example white girl in eltham slaps a muslim for gobbing off white girl gets 4 months in prison the white girl in question has no previous convictions group of muslim girls beat the shit out of a white girl and get away as they are not used to drinking now tell me theres not something wrong with the whole legal system in this country
Very tempted to ignore your post as not worth answering, but in the interests of "providing balance" I will give a very short riposte, from the VERY LIMITED KNOWLEDGE I have of the matters (but probably more than you have bothered to research)
The girl in Eltham was charged with a "Racially Aggravated Assault" ... a "specified crime" under Chapter 5 of the Criminal Justice Act and sentenced under section 224 of that act and has a range of discharge to a maximum sentence of 26 weeks custody.
The muslim girls were charged with Common Assault (Section 39) which has a range of discharge to "High Level Community Order"
The decisions on what charges were laid were made by the relevant CPS units. The Judiciary have no say on the charges but must abide by the guidelines when sentencing.
In simple terms .. you and the press are not comparing like with like ... but hey .. as long as the Outrage Bus has something to shout about ....
and BTW rubbish and you know it
is more applicable to your response than mine :)
I, at least, try to respond factually.
no she wasnt so theres your factual response people like you make me laugh come to london for a day see what really goes on and im not talking your tourist locations
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I think the point is Nige,the girls who attacked the white girl (calling her a white bitch etc.) should have been charged with racially motivated assault.The CPS should be called to account for why this didnt happen,as should the judge imo who apparently took "not used to affects of alcohol" as mitigation. The whole world knows that alcohol can affect behaviour and judgement,so if people dont want to risk getting into trouble due to its affects, they shouldnt drink it.When courts start accepting drunkeness as mitigation, we are imo on the road to hell in a handcart.
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BV ... :)
As far as I know, and as you say a mixture of speculation, reading press reports, and talking to local CPS at the time ....
The girl in Eltham was sober, accompanied her physical asault with a lengthy period of verbals (prolonged assault), had time to consider her actions (premeditation).
The muslim girls were drunk, acted spontaneously, and stopped when intervention occured.
My understanding (which could well be very wrong) is that the CPS in the first case viewed the matter as a wholly racial motive .. it was done because the victim was muslim; but the second case was viewed as being anti-social behaviour, it was done because the assailants were drunk and not racially motivated, the use of phrases like "white bitch" does not prove motivation.
I, obviously, have no idea how or why the different CPS offices made those decisions.
HTH
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BV ... :)
As far as I know, and as you say a mixture of speculation, reading press reports, and talking to local CPS at the time ....
The girl in Eltham was sober, accompanied her physical asault with a lengthy period of verbals (prolonged assault), had time to consider her actions (premeditation).
The muslim girls were drunk, acted spontaneously, and stopped when intervention occured.
My understanding (which could well be very wrong) is that the CPS in the first case viewed the matter as a wholly racial motive .. it was done because the victim was muslim; but the second case was viewed as being anti-social behaviour, it was done because the assailants were drunk and not racially motivated, the use of phrases like "white bitch" does not prove motivation.
I, obviously, have no idea how or why the different CPS offices made those decisions.
HTH
You,me and most of the population I should imagine Nige. ;)
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BV ... :)
As far as I know, and as you say a mixture of speculation, reading press reports, and talking to local CPS at the time ....
The girl in Eltham was sober, accompanied her physical asault with a lengthy period of verbals (prolonged assault), had time to consider her actions (premeditation).
The muslim girls were drunk, acted spontaneously, and stopped when intervention occured.
My understanding (which could well be very wrong) is that the CPS in the first case viewed the matter as a wholly racial motive .. it was done because the victim was muslim; but the second case was viewed as being anti-social behaviour, it was done because the assailants were drunk and not racially motivated, the use of phrases like "white bitch" does not prove motivation.
But it would if somebody said "black or paki" bitch ;)
I, obviously, have no idea how or why the different CPS offices made those decisions.
HTH
That is one of the problems.
In one area, you get a slap on the wrist. In another area, you get 12 months in the big house.
Another is race ;)
If a white skined person punches a person of a different skin colour, there is a very good chance that person will scream racism and push that point. The police / cps have no choice but to treat it as a racist attack or the sh*t would hit the fan.
If the shoe was on the other foot so to speak and a white person screamed racism, he would be laughed at >:(
The press are discouraged from printing this in case it causes riots and disruptions but those of us who live in so area's know it to be true.
Note ............. I personally couldn't give a toss what colour peoples skin is or what god they worship, I just want one rule for ALL citizens in this country and imo, thats not happening ;)
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Note ............. I personally couldn't give a toss what colour peoples skin is or what god they worship, I just want one rule for ALL citizens in this country and imo, thats not happening ;)
You have that .. in abundance.. enshrined in many pieces of legislation, but as I said before .. all decisions are made by PEOPLE, who have different outlooks, viewpoints, pressures etc etc ... they try hard to put them to one side, but at the end of the day all humans are different, and will therefore make different decisions.
The other way is total rigidity, then the outrage bus will moan about using sledgehammers to crack nuts when the 6p theft gets the same sentence as the £6,000,000 theft.
Humanity .... you are part of it, embrace the differences :)
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Note ............. I personally couldn't give a toss what colour peoples skin is or what god they worship, I just want one rule for ALL citizens in this country and imo, thats not happening ;)
You have that .. in abundance.. enshrined in many pieces of legislation, but as I said before .. all decisions are made by PEOPLE, who have different outlooks, viewpoints, pressures etc etc ... they try hard to put them to one side, but at the end of the day all humans are different, and will therefore make different decisions.
The other way is total rigidity, then the outrage bus will moan about using sledgehammers to crack nuts when the 6p theft gets the same sentence as the £6,000,000 theft.
Humanity .... you are part of it, embrace the differences :)
Agree that is the way it should be :y
Sadly, that is not what folks see when they walk down the street in some places.
I've been back in civvy street 22 years (as of yesterday) and my city has changed almost beyond recognition :(
Imho, our country has changed but some of the laws have not changed to protect and uphold what we used to cherish about this nation :(
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Imo its not about humanity and its differences etc. Its about the political class embracing (tightly) the positive discrimination mindset and diversity of culture being promoted above common sense and traditional culture - that to me is where these problems eminate from.Its not a case of accept what we have now,or move to totalitarianism - we used to have something which was neither of those things and seemed to make a lot more sense than what we have now. ;)
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BV ... :)
As far as I know, and as you say a mixture of speculation, reading press reports, and talking to local CPS at the time ....
The girl in Eltham was sober, accompanied her physical asault with a lengthy period of verbals (prolonged assault), had time to consider her actions (premeditation).
The muslim girls were drunk, acted spontaneously, and stopped when intervention occured.
My understanding (which could well be very wrong) is that the CPS in the first case viewed the matter as a wholly racial motive .. it was done because the victim was muslim; but the second case was viewed as being anti-social behaviour, it was done because the assailants were drunk and not racially motivated, the use of phrases like "white bitch" does not prove motivation.
I, obviously, have no idea how or why the different CPS offices made those decisions.
HTH
unfortunately she was a bit drunk the girl in question is a friends daughter she is not in any way racist shes a good kid works hard never been in trouble hopefully her appeal next week will see her released and entwood i appreciate what your saying but when you see what goes on its enough to make your piss boil
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1. The police in the England & Wales do NOT, and CANNOT, prosecute anyone. They investigate an incident and pass the papers to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) for an adult, or the Youth Offending Team (YOT) for a youth (under 18), the YOT will confer with CPS on some matters but not all. IT IS NOW OUT OF POLICE HANDS.
I had taken it, after some amateurish and unsuccessful Googling, that the Youth Offending Team was a department within the police. The sort of 9-5, strictly office work unit. Now that you've pointed out it's in fact part of (or related to, at least) the Criminal Protection Service, it all makes even more sense... :y