Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: Nickbat on 06 January 2012, 21:07:31
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This may seem a very odd question (two questions, actually), but here goes, anyway.
Is it possible to instantly fry an ECU by putting a strong electrical charge through the earth of a car?
I assume it is, but would like confirmation.
Secondly, if it is possible, what sort of current would be required and would it be possible to ensure the safety of any vehicle occupants at the time the charge is put through the earth circuit?
Weird, I know, but there is a reason I ask... ;) ;) ;)
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Well no as a car has no earth!
As for passing a large current through the chassis, again no as the its not passing through the ECU.
If we were talking lightning then its a different matter though as the spark associated would have massive RF energy which could induce current in the ecu electronics and therefore blow it.
This is also the risk with welding as again there is quite a bit of RF (although modern systems are much more rugged)
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AFAIK the answer to your first is "Yes" .. and the answer to the second is the car acts a bit like a "farady cage", all the electric current passes through semi-monocoque construction .. the "outside" of the car, so the occupants are resasonably safe inside.
Also, the tyres, being rubber, act as an insulator so slowing down any transmission of current to some degree.. obviously if the tyres are worn and the metal caseing s touching the road this does not apply, and if you have one of those dangling "earth straps" it will increase the current flow.
Cars have been struck by lightning, and the folks inside emerge unhurt, although the engine electronics are usually toast and the tyres can be somewhat soft and soggy (melted).
That is my understanding anyway .... probably wrong :)
:)
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AFAIK the answer to your first is "Yes" .. and the answer to the second is the car acts a bit like a "farady cage", all the electric current passes through semi-monocoque construction .. the "outside" of the car, so the occupants are resasonably safe inside.
Also, the tyres, being rubber, act as an insulator so slowing down any transmission of current to some degree.. obviously if the tyres are worn and the metal caseing s touching the road this does not apply, and if you have one of those dangling "earth straps" it will increase the current flow.
Cars have been struck by lightning, and the folks inside emerge unhurt, although the engine electronics are usually toast and the tyres can be somewhat soft and soggy (melted).
That is my understanding anyway .... probably wrong :)
:)
Unlikely to make a lot of difference as the steel band is not in contact with the steel rim so no direct conduction path.
Reality is that to get any conduction from the car body to 'earth' will require some pretty serious volts to break down the air and 'jump the gap' :y
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Well no as a car has no earth!
As for passing a large current through the chassis, again no as the its not passing through the ECU.
If we were talking lightning then its a different matter though as the spark associated would have massive RF energy which could induce current in the ecu electronics and therefore blow it.
This is also the risk with welding as again there is quite a bit of RF (although modern systems are much more rugged)
Thanks. I meant the negative circuit rather than the earth and as the current does not go through the ECU, you've answered my question I guess.
It all came about when I was watching one of those Police Road Wars programmes. During pursuits, patrol vehicles can come to within a few feet of a stolen car, yet have no way of stopping it and although stingers have some success, they are not the answer in some cases. I was pondering on whether a police vehicle could in some way disable the ecu of the pursued, perhaps in a similar way that a taser is used on a human.
As I say, just a thought - over which you have poured a bucket of cold water, Mark! ;) ;D ;D ;D
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If they could chuck a few 100KV through it from a low resistance source they might be able.
How about mounting a bloody geat big capacitor on the front!
Reality is that the energy in the likes of lightning is mahoosive.......
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AFAIK the answer to your first is "Yes" .. and the answer to the second is the car acts a bit like a "farady cage", all the electric current passes through semi-monocoque construction .. the "outside" of the car, so the occupants are resasonably safe inside.
Also, the tyres, being rubber, act as an insulator so slowing down any transmission of current to some degree.. obviously if the tyres are worn and the metal caseing s touching the road this does not apply, and if you have one of those dangling "earth straps" it will increase the current flow.
Cars have been struck by lightning, and the folks inside emerge unhurt, although the engine electronics are usually toast and the tyres can be somewhat soft and soggy (melted).
That is my understanding anyway .... probably wrong :)
:)
I'm afraid i agree with the above.
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If they could chuck a few 100KV through it from a low resistance source they might be able.
How about mounting a bloody geat big capacitor on the front!
Reality is that the energy in the likes of lightning is mahoosive.......
Fair comment, but I've heard that jump starting a car can fubar an ECU, so I was figuring that some form of electrical discharge through the chassis could have the same effect. I'd been thinking about a gas-powered dart with lines attached fired from the patrol car if the pursued vehicle came in a range of 4 or 5 feet.
Idle thoughts on my part, but thanks for your knowledge. :y
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If they could chuck a few 100KV through it from a low resistance source they might be able.
How about mounting a bloody geat big capacitor on the front!
Reality is that the energy in the likes of lightning is mahoosive.......
Fair comment, but I've heard that jump starting a car can fubar an ECU, so I was figuring that some form of electrical discharge through the chassis could have the same effect. I'd been thinking about a gas-powered dart with lines attached fired from the patrol car if the pursued vehicle came in a range of 4 or 5 feet.
Idle thoughts on my part, but thanks for your knowledge. :y
Many an urban myth out there :y
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AFAIK the answer to your first is "Yes" .. and the answer to the second is the car acts a bit like a "farady cage", all the electric current passes through semi-monocoque construction .. the "outside" of the car, so the occupants are resasonably safe inside.
Also, the tyres, being rubber, act as an insulator so slowing down any transmission of current to some degree.. obviously if the tyres are worn and the metal caseing s touching the road this does not apply, and if you have one of those dangling "earth straps" it will increase the current flow.
Cars have been struck by lightning, and the folks inside emerge unhurt, although the engine electronics are usually toast and the tyres can be somewhat soft and soggy (melted).
That is my understanding anyway .... probably wrong :)
:)
I'm afraid i agree with the above.
Some yes and some no :y
The faraday cage bit is very true :)
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If they could chuck a few 100KV through it from a low resistance source they might be able.
How about mounting a bloody geat big capacitor on the front!
Reality is that the energy in the likes of lightning is mahoosive.......
Fair comment, but I've heard that jump starting a car can fubar an ECU, so I was figuring that some form of electrical discharge through the chassis could have the same effect. I'd been thinking about a gas-powered dart with lines attached fired from the patrol car if the pursued vehicle came in a range of 4 or 5 feet.
Idle thoughts on my part, but thanks for your knowledge. :y
Watched Fast & Furious: Tokyo Drift, recently? (I think it was that one.. or maybe it was F&F 4.. one of them, anyway, showed something just like that being used to disable a car's ECU)
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I was wondering about the police being able to stop a car remotely. A Faraday cage will have a field inside of 0, however that is a perfect faraday cage that conducts perfectly, eg 0R which I don't think exists, there is always resistance. Cars being struck by lightning and killing the electronics show that in the presence of a strong electric field, voltages will be induced in wiring as steel car bodies are not a very good faraday cage. Pretty good but not perfect.
Suppose car manufacturers had to fit a CAN bus receiver module to the front and rear of cars, say in the lights, that would respond to a strong field and tell the main ECU to shut down ?. More use than the fairy lights currently being fitted to new cars :-X
Ken
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If they could chuck a few 100KV through it from a low resistance source they might be able.
How about mounting a bloody geat big capacitor on the front!
Reality is that the energy in the likes of lightning is mahoosive.......
Fair comment, but I've heard that jump starting a car can fubar an ECU, so I was figuring that some form of electrical discharge through the chassis could have the same effect. I'd been thinking about a gas-powered dart with lines attached fired from the patrol car if the pursued vehicle came in a range of 4 or 5 feet.
Idle thoughts on my part, but thanks for your knowledge. :y
Watched Fast & Furious: Tokyo Drift, recently? (I think it was that one.. or maybe it was F&F 4.. one of them, anyway, showed something just like that being used to disable a car's ECU)
PMSL....its a film!
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If they could chuck a few 100KV through it from a low resistance source they might be able.
How about mounting a bloody geat big capacitor on the front!
Reality is that the energy in the likes of lightning is mahoosive.......
Fair comment, but I've heard that jump starting a car can fubar an ECU, so I was figuring that some form of electrical discharge through the chassis could have the same effect. I'd been thinking about a gas-powered dart with lines attached fired from the patrol car if the pursued vehicle came in a range of 4 or 5 feet.
Idle thoughts on my part, but thanks for your knowledge. :y
Watched Fast & Furious: Tokyo Drift, recently? (I think it was that one.. or maybe it was F&F 4.. one of them, anyway, showed something just like that being used to disable a car's ECU)
PMSL....its a film!
I know. I was suggesting that was where Nickbat might have picked up the flawed idea. Not that it was feasible.
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If they could chuck a few 100KV through it from a low resistance source they might be able.
How about mounting a bloody geat big capacitor on the front!
Reality is that the energy in the likes of lightning is mahoosive.......
Fair comment, but I've heard that jump starting a car can fubar an ECU, so I was figuring that some form of electrical discharge through the chassis could have the same effect. I'd been thinking about a gas-powered dart with lines attached fired from the patrol car if the pursued vehicle came in a range of 4 or 5 feet.
Idle thoughts on my part, but thanks for your knowledge. :y
Watched Fast & Furious: Tokyo Drift, recently? (I think it was that one.. or maybe it was F&F 4.. one of them, anyway, showed something just like that being used to disable a car's ECU)
PMSL....its a film!
I know. I was suggesting that was where Nickbat might have picked up the flawed idea. Not that it was feasible.
No, I didn't see the film. Yes, it's a flawed idea, but it gets my goat when I see some scrotes in a nicked motor just feet away from a patrol car and then being able to go on to wreck cars, other people and goodness knows what. Considering practically all cars now rely on ECU chips and we're all told how sensitive they are, it was a logical thought for a non-techie like me. ;) ;D
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Is that not what fire arms are designed for.......
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Is that not what fire arms are designed for.......
Not politically correct, Mark. These motor-nicking scrotes are deprived youngsters in need of counselling don't ya know? ;) ;D ;D ;D
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I had wondered about that, how difficult would it be to have radar controlled guns to shoot out rear tyres ?. Electronics is moving at a phenomenal rate and to design a system to fire a metal projectile 20 feet at high speed ( linear motor ?) does not look too difficult.
Ken
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Is that not what fire arms are designed for.......
Not politically correct, Mark. These motor-nicking scrotes are deprived youngsters in need of counselling don't ya know? ;) ;D ;D ;D
I suspect if the hypothetical device to disable a car's ECU existed it wouldn't be very politically correct either. ;)
Car electronics is much more robust than most consumer electronics as it's designed to live in an electrically hostile environment and perform, to some extent, a safety critical role. To generate an electrical event powerful enough to disable a car you'd also knock out every mobile phone, i-whatever, TV, PC for miles around not to mention half the radios and other kit carried in the police car itself. It'd be a bit of a liability, I reckon. ;D
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talking of films and techno, which sometimes the ideas are in the pipeline... with current satnav installs in new vehicles, i dont think it will be long before speeding is impossible and at the will of the authorities, total shut down of a vehicle.
(bruce willis 4.0 rocks)
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Is that not what fire arms are designed for.......
Large firearms. RPG. Artillery.
Eradicate the arseholes from the gene pool.
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Get a big gun which fires a huge net! Get close enough, fire the net over the car and it entangles itself in the wheels and stops the car......bonus point, they also can't get out and run ;D ;D ;D ;D
Then use a taser to "calm" them down ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D