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[supermop]

I agree with Paul. Hell even Bill Gates himself agrees with Paul, stating that DRM and the umbrella it defines (ie. WGA etc.) is 'too complicated' and 'difficult for any cosumer' to comprehend. It is such a thing that cannot efficiently or even succesfully be implemented IMO, and thusly should be ditched.

[TheBoy]

I agree with Paul. Hell even Bill Gates himself agrees with Paul, stating that DRM and the umbrella it defines (ie. WGA etc.) is 'too complicated' and 'difficult for any cosumer' to comprehend. It is such a thing that cannot efficiently or even succesfully be implemented IMO, and thusly should be ditched.

The consumer/end user shouldn't need to comprehend, as it should just work. The current implementations of DRM are a problem though, and high profile cases such as Sony's opps up earlier this year don't help.

[TheBoy]

I have never seen a false positive with WPA or WGA.  It is always where the software hasn't been activated, and is outside of its activation period. Of course its possible someone has a licence, but has run a crack for whatever reason, but this should be an unlikely scenario.  And most people capable of installing XP should know better.

I have heard of false positives, although I'm unsure of the details such as whether the correct key was used etc.

Funnily enough I bought a new 160Gb HD for my Dell laptop, then discovered that the OS installation CD that came with it is gubbed (shows a general protection fault a few seconds after booting). Brilliant! Couldn't find a Dell OEM installation CD for download so I hastily downloaded a standard WinXP SP2 ISO using my Linux desktop - oh the irony lol, and installed with that. But of course it wouldn't accept my OEM CD Key so a quick search of google groups (usenet archives) came up with more keys than you could ever wish for. First one worked fine. A few days later I managed to get a hold of a Dell OEM CD which did work OK so I started again and reinstalled "legitimately". Unfortunately it was only an SP1 CD so I had to spend ages getting SP2 and all the subsequent updates. Funnily enough it didn't even ask for my CD Key this time, apparently this is normal for Dell systems, maybe it can read something from the BIOS or whatever. Didn't have to activate either, and of course WGA isn't installed cos I won't allow it to be installed.

The cracks do not effectively work with WGA, most of them just hide the prompts.

It plays havoc if you are using imaging technology to deploy multiple identical machines, but in that case you should be looking at corporate versions available with Open Licencing, which handle it slighty differently (as most non legal XP users will know - no activation after install, but if you use one of the 2 well know keys, the service packs will detect this).

Couldn't tell you anything about the cracks, never seen any of em. CD Keys can be changed easily enough, there are a few workarounds that I've heard of (the classic one being to change a registry key to make windows become "unactivated", then use the activation wizard to change the key). So you then just go onto google groups and find a key that works with SP2! Yet another useless "solution" to the piracy problem.

MS have to do something to prevent piracy, WPA/WGA is a reasonable start.

But the guilty until proved innocent approach is not something I want to have any part of. If I have paid £200 for XP Pro (or more likely about £80-£100 for an OEM version bundled with the PC) then I do not see why I should have to repeatedly contact M$ to let them check that I've paid for the software. No other mainstream vendor does it, and they all have piracy problems.

It's akin to the government saying we have to do something to tackle the problem of drivers breaking the speed limit, so from next year every car will have a GPS device that calls home to your nearest police station to check you haven't broken any speed limits.

Both are illegal, but I don't agree with the principal of some "higher authority" periodically checking my property to ensure I'm adhering to their rules.

You would need an OEM copy of XP home/Pro to use the Dell key, not retail.  Again, MS need to stop people buying OEM licences and installing as retail copies, hence different CDs.

I know the way Dell recovery/OS CDs work, and if you read MS's deployment docs, you can see how its done so you don't have to enter CD key etc...    ...also I would recommend you look at how you slipstream SP2 onto a pre SP2 CD so you can install, complete with SP2 next time (and being Windows, there will be a next time ). Instructions are inc in SP2 download readme.  Slipstreaming has been a Windows feature since W2K.

Many software companies are using a similar approach now. For years, dongles have been a PITA for people not wanting to pay for S/W.  At least WPA/WGA isn't as intrusive as this.  Though cracks etc can get around dongles, so currently best way is a database held by vendor showing which licences are installed where.

As I've yet to hear of a genuine case where WPA/WGA has failed (and if it happens frequently, I would have heard), I still do not see what the problem with it is if you are a genuine user.

The keys off internet all require an activation crack as well to stop WPA disabling system. WGA starts knobbling system if not activated, though tends to only kick in for new 'features' such as WMP11. MS do not use WGA for critical security updates - they are responsible enough to allow pirated copies of Windows to get patched...

Can you think of a better way to stop piracy?

[Paul M]

Yeah I know about the OEM/retail key and matched CD thing, and it's another pain in the ass that does nothing to curb piracy.

Same with slipstreaming, yep I could've done but since I don't expect to reinstall it's not worth the hassle as I'd have to download everything anyway. I've had this laptop for about 2.5 years, and the only reason it needed reinstalled is cos I replaced the drive. I managed to gut out all the crap from the original install and it was working fine. Even more interesting than slipstreaming is nLite (http://www.nliteos.com/) which makes it loads easier to get rid of all the junk M$ force upon you, which I normally spend ages doing by hand after installing Windows.

You've just given me yet another reason for preventing WGA infecting my computer, if it also prevents the installation of Media Player 11 (or indeed any version above 6). I've been using Media Player Classic for years now, it does a much better job without all the bloat, DRM and advertising, and the icing on the cake is that it's completely free and open source. If I had the choice my OEM Windows would have been the EU "reduced media" version without M$'s crappy media player, and while they're at it they can remove Messenger (I use Trillian Free or Gaim), Net Meeting, Outlook Express and all the other junk I don't want but M$ have made as difficult as possible to remove for the purposes of leveraging their desktop monopoly into other markets.

Back to the original point, I thought a corporate version with corporate key didn't require activation, which is why it's the method of choice for pirates. So no WPA crack required.

I don't know the solution to piracy, but I do know that it's not WGA. Quite simply it will do nothing to deter pirates, and plenty to annoy "Geniune" customers like me, who see absolutely no "Advantage" from my perspective. Big brother is indeed watching you, and just because they claim no personal information is ever sent, are you happy to believe that the contents of those encrypted packets have absolutely no connection to you? Who knows what's in them, so personally I'd rather not let them cast their beady eyes over the contents of my machine thank you.

[TheBoy]

Back to the original point, I thought a corporate version with corporate key didn't require activation, which is why it's the method of choice for pirates. So no WPA crack required.

I don't know the solution to piracy, but I do know that it's not WGA. Quite simply it will do nothing to deter pirates, and plenty to annoy "Geniune" customers like me, who see absolutely no "Advantage" from my perspective. Big brother is indeed watching you, and just because they claim no personal information is ever sent, are you happy to believe that the contents of those encrypted packets have absolutely no connection to you? Who knows what's in them, so personally I'd rather not let them cast their beady eyes over the contents of my machine thank you.

Corporate doesn't need activation, hence why pirates use it, as activation is difficult to break. Corporates are normally very protective of their keys, and if one leaks out to public domain, they can be put on the well known list (and hence blacklisted in WPA/WGA), and new keys given to that company.  Remember, in a corporate environment, it is not too difficult to replace keys across the whole estate.

Why would WGA annoy you - it is pretty seemless (assuming you have the proper licence/key/activation for the copy your are running? As I've said numerous times, I have never seen, or even heard of, a genuine false positive.

WGA is fairly new, as MS are slowly using it more and more. It should deter pirated copies, as it does inconvenience illegal users.  Together with WPA, it has cut down quite significantly on illicit use.

As said, for legal users, no real problem, for illicit users, a PITA constantly getting cracks that only work until next set of major downloads.

As for WMP etc, with today's disks, who really cares if its installed. Just install the player of your choice. WMP does have the (unfair?) advantage that its installed on most PCs, but doesn't mean you can't put your own favourite(s) on. Same applies to all other utils that the anti MS brigade moan about.  Remember, Apple and most Linux distros fill their OSes with crap as well.

[TheBoy]

Oh, BTW, WMP etc can be set not to install - again, its all in the deployment docs...