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[ScottieMV6]

My 98 MV6 came with a CCR600 which I immediately changed for a Pioneer MP3 head unit.

However I am considering changing it for a more standard unit like the bose unit.

Just wondering what people think. I assume the bose unit won't play MP3 CD's but will it play "copied CD's"?

Will the bose unit give a better sound quality than the Pioneer? What work is involved in the upgrade?

Thanks

[Miggy24]

to be honest i changed all my speakes and head unit as the standard stuff was pants.I have a Pioneer headunit and after maket speakers and sound 100 percent

[markey mark]

in both my mv6's i have upgraded them to bose very good clear sound ! and mine plays copied cds fine  

[Dave DND]

in both my mv6's i have upgraded them to bose very good clear sound ! and mine plays copied cds fine  

Just because yours appears to play copied CD`s, do not think that you are not damaging your laser every time you do so. The unit was never designed to read the much smaller data on the recordable discs and teh laser will strain itself to destruction very quickly if you continue to do so.

As far as convertting over to BOSE, I personally do not feel it is worth the effort to end up with a sound that was considered good 20 years ago, but has been much improved with modern technology and better products. Go aftermarket every time (just not the cheapie budget stuff)

[ScottieMV6]

Thanks Dave.

I'll stick with the Pioneer I have then.

[Dave DND]

If you haven`t already done so, upgrade the speakers and maybe add a small sub and amp. No need to go overboard, but remember that cutting corners on cheapie speakers may not prove to be a "sound" descision.  £100 speakers do often sound twice as good as £50 speakers.

 

[Marks DTM Calib]

in both my mv6's i have upgraded them to bose very good clear sound ! and mine plays copied cds fine  

Just because yours appears to play copied CD`s, do not think that you are not damaging your laser every time you do so. The unit was never designed to read the much smaller data on the recordable discs and teh laser will strain itself to destruction very quickly if you continue to do so.

As far as convertting over to BOSE, I personally do not feel it is worth the effort to end up with a sound that was considered good 20 years ago, but has been much improved with modern technology and better products. Go aftermarket every time (just not the cheapie budget stuff)

Dave, I have researched the CD theory in detail recently (I studied it many years ago before recerdable media was common place) and spoken to a few collegues who work in the design field (mainly at Uk basd high end audio seperates design houses)

The data on a recorded CD is not smaller at all, the only key difference is that the reflectivity of the disc material is less (best are about 60-70% with RW's being even worse) with a smaller differential between the 0 and 1's which the electronics struggle to cope with.

This does result in increases focus activity as you state but, the route cause is not pit size (for info).

I am informed that the way they overcome this is to use variable decision thresholds for the 0's/1's levels in the electronics (we do a similar thing for long haul laser based comms setups).

This also explains why some media work much better than others.  

[Dave DND]

in both my mv6's i have upgraded them to bose very good clear sound ! and mine plays copied cds fine  

Just because yours appears to play copied CD`s, do not think that you are not damaging your laser every time you do so. The unit was never designed to read the much smaller data on the recordable discs and teh laser will strain itself to destruction very quickly if you continue to do so.

As far as convertting over to BOSE, I personally do not feel it is worth the effort to end up with a sound that was considered good 20 years ago, but has been much improved with modern technology and better products. Go aftermarket every time (just not the cheapie budget stuff)

Dave, I have researched the CD theory in detail recently (I studied it many years ago before recerdable media was common place) and spoken to a few collegues who work in the design field (mainly at Uk basd high end audio seperates design houses)

The data on a recorded CD is not smaller at all, the only key difference is that the reflectivity of the disc material is less (best are about 60-70% with RW's being even worse) with a smaller differential between the 0 and 1's which the electronics struggle to cope with.

This does result in increases focus activity as you state but, the route cause is not pit size (for info).

I am informed that the way they overcome this is to use variable decision thresholds for the 0's/1's levels in the electronics (we do a similar thing for long haul laser based comms setups).

This also explains why some media work much better than others.  

Whilst I agree fully what you are saying, trying to put that into laymens terms that joe public would understand is something else. There is a variance of pit/trough ratio as well as reflectivity, material composition, layers, thicknesses and recording/pressing techniques.  I didn`t want to start quoting the Red / Blue and Green books of media design here, nor go into technical spec in too much detail, as it often confuses people.

Bottom line remains the same, The units were designed before recordable media, and if you continue to use recordable media you WILL knacker the laser.

The "recordable dots explanation" so far, in all the forums I am on, still remains the easiest way to get the message across in a way that people easily understand it. If you can think of a simpler way of putting it, in terms that your Granny would understand, please let me know, as would love to quote it.

 

[TheBoy]

in both my mv6's i have upgraded them to bose very good clear sound ! and mine plays copied cds fine  

Just because yours appears to play copied CD`s, do not think that you are not damaging your laser every time you do so. The unit was never designed to read the much smaller data on the recordable discs and teh laser will strain itself to destruction very quickly if you continue to do so.

As far as convertting over to BOSE, I personally do not feel it is worth the effort to end up with a sound that was considered good 20 years ago, but has been much improved with modern technology and better products. Go aftermarket every time (just not the cheapie budget stuff)

Dave, I have researched the CD theory in detail recently (I studied it many years ago before recerdable media was common place) and spoken to a few collegues who work in the design field (mainly at Uk basd high end audio seperates design houses)

The data on a recorded CD is not smaller at all, the only key difference is that the reflectivity of the disc material is less (best are about 60-70% with RW's being even worse) with a smaller differential between the 0 and 1's which the electronics struggle to cope with.

This does result in increases focus activity as you state but, the route cause is not pit size (for info).

I am informed that the way they overcome this is to use variable decision thresholds for the 0's/1's levels in the electronics (we do a similar thing for long haul laser based comms setups).

This also explains why some media work much better than others.  

That was pretty much my understanding of it, and as I've stated before, have been lucky with CDRs in my units.  Though I always use premium disks - Verbatim - and always burn at single speed on CDs, so that may have a bearing on it.

The CDC2 does appear to be fairly robust in this regard - not too many people here have had issues.  The CDC3 certainly appears to be more troublesome though, going by forum posts.

[Dave DND]

The CDC2 does appear to be fairly robust in this regard - not too many people here have had issues.  The CDC3 certainly appears to be more troublesome though, going by forum posts.

Back in the early days of In Car CD (and possibly domestic audio as well) there were two main players, Philips and Sony, and conflicting stories often appear if you try to research as to who was the biggest of the two in this field - I seem to think Philips (but only just).

What is interesting though, is that Laser failure with CDR/RW is indeed more prevelent with the CDC3, (Philips laser technology) as opposed to the generally more robust CDC2 (Sony Laser technology) and this observation is certainly not limited to Vauxhall units as other manufacturers who share common models in their range often have the "Philips" unit failing long before the "Sony" one does.

But here`s a thought then, and one for which I have no answer at present, as our service centre only uses genuine parts.

Older designed optical devices, as we all know, fail rapidly due to the amount of strain put on them, as they are operating outside of the parameters that they were designed to.

But how does a modern produced compatable replacement fair? Modern lasers are designed and built to much higher standards these days, and reading the data of a CDr should present no problems at all. The focus and tracking coils are all part of the optical block, replaced as a single unit, and the drive technology would remain unnaffected, save for the calibration required in fitting a new device. So if a modern equivalent laser could be found and fitted, would it mean that the unit could therefore become CDr/rw compatable ?

Food for thought?

 :-/

[TheBoy]

The CDC2 does appear to be fairly robust in this regard - not too many people here have had issues.  The CDC3 certainly appears to be more troublesome though, going by forum posts.

Back in the early days of In Car CD (and possibly domestic audio as well) there were two main players, Philips and Sony, and conflicting stories often appear if you try to research as to who was the biggest of the two in this field - I seem to think Philips (but only just).

What is interesting though, is that Laser failure with CDR/RW is indeed more prevelent with the CDC3, (Philips laser technology) as opposed to the generally more robust CDC2 (Sony Laser technology) and this observation is certainly not limited to Vauxhall units as other manufacturers who share common models in their range often have the "Philips" unit failing long before the "Sony" one does.

But here`s a thought then, and one for which I have no answer at present, as our service centre only uses genuine parts.

Older designed optical devices, as we all know, fail rapidly due to the amount of strain put on them, as they are operating outside of the parameters that they were designed to.

But how does a modern produced compatable replacement fair? Modern lasers are designed and built to much higher standards these days, and reading the data of a CDr should present no problems at all. The focus and tracking coils are all part of the optical block, replaced as a single unit, and the drive technology would remain unnaffected, save for the calibration required in fitting a new device. So if a modern equivalent laser could be found and fitted, would it mean that the unit could therefore become CDr/rw compatable ?

Food for thought?

 :-/

the only cdc failure i've had fail is the one in her rover last year.  a philips badged cdc, so presumably philips laser?

wonder what my old kenwood, still going strong, was. circa 1991 - one of the first 'compact' type where mech moves rather than the magazine, 10 disc jobby

[Marks DTM Calib]

The CDC2 does appear to be fairly robust in this regard - not too many people here have had issues.  The CDC3 certainly appears to be more troublesome though, going by forum posts.

Back in the early days of In Car CD (and possibly domestic audio as well) there were two main players, Philips and Sony, and conflicting stories often appear if you try to research as to who was the biggest of the two in this field - I seem to think Philips (but only just).

What is interesting though, is that Laser failure with CDR/RW is indeed more prevelent with the CDC3, (Philips laser technology) as opposed to the generally more robust CDC2 (Sony Laser technology) and this observation is certainly not limited to Vauxhall units as other manufacturers who share common models in their range often have the "Philips" unit failing long before the "Sony" one does.

But here`s a thought then, and one for which I have no answer at present, as our service centre only uses genuine parts.

Older designed optical devices, as we all know, fail rapidly due to the amount of strain put on them, as they are operating outside of the parameters that they were designed to.

But how does a modern produced compatable replacement fair? Modern lasers are designed and built to much higher standards these days, and reading the data of a CDr should present no problems at all. The focus and tracking coils are all part of the optical block, replaced as a single unit, and the drive technology would remain unnaffected, save for the calibration required in fitting a new device. So if a modern equivalent laser could be found and fitted, would it mean that the unit could therefore become CDr/rw compatable ?

Food for thought?

 :-/

The simple answer is no.

As said, the key thing is the 0's and 1's decision threshold technique employed in the electronics. Its this that gives the ability to tolerate a poor rx eye pattern.

Without this, the control loops for the focus setup will be continualy trying to adjust to optimise the eye pattern.

So, fundamentaly, its the electronics that are the key to success and not the laser/coils/PIN diode.

Reality is that in the last 12 years (the period I have been invovled in optoelectronics), Semi lasers and PIN diodes have only really got cheaper, no other real improvements.

The receivers have improved and the modern laser drivers are more integrated to support better power control (easier on a CW laser anyway).

No other real major advances......particularly when you remove switching speed from the equation!  

[MutantCav]

To be fair...I dont suppose Markey Mark really cares either way if he kills his CDC2 as he would just put another in at zero cost to himself lol  

[Dave DND]

The CDC2 does appear to be fairly robust in this regard - not too many people here have had issues.  The CDC3 certainly appears to be more troublesome though, going by forum posts.

Back in the early days of In Car CD (and possibly domestic audio as well) there were two main players, Philips and Sony, and conflicting stories often appear if you try to research as to who was the biggest of the two in this field - I seem to think Philips (but only just).

What is interesting though, is that Laser failure with CDR/RW is indeed more prevelent with the CDC3, (Philips laser technology) as opposed to the generally more robust CDC2 (Sony Laser technology) and this observation is certainly not limited to Vauxhall units as other manufacturers who share common models in their range often have the "Philips" unit failing long before the "Sony" one does.

But here`s a thought then, and one for which I have no answer at present, as our service centre only uses genuine parts.

Older designed optical devices, as we all know, fail rapidly due to the amount of strain put on them, as they are operating outside of the parameters that they were designed to.

But how does a modern produced compatable replacement fair? Modern lasers are designed and built to much higher standards these days, and reading the data of a CDr should present no problems at all. The focus and tracking coils are all part of the optical block, replaced as a single unit, and the drive technology would remain unnaffected, save for the calibration required in fitting a new device. So if a modern equivalent laser could be found and fitted, would it mean that the unit could therefore become CDr/rw compatable ?

Food for thought?

 :-/

The simple answer is no.

As said, the key thing is the 0's and 1's decision threshold technique employed in the electronics. Its this that gives the ability to tolerate a poor rx eye pattern.

Without this, the control loops for the focus setup will be continualy trying to adjust to optimise the eye pattern.

So, fundamentaly, its the electronics that are the key to success and not the laser/coils/PIN diode.

Reality is that in the last 12 years (the period I have been invovled in optoelectronics), Semi lasers and PIN diodes have only really got cheaper, no other real improvements.

The receivers have improved and the modern laser drivers are more integrated to support better power control (easier on a CW laser anyway).

No other real major advances......particularly when you remove switching speed from the equation!  

Ah well, worth a thought  

[Dave DND]

The CDC2 does appear to be fairly robust in this regard - not too many people here have had issues.  The CDC3 certainly appears to be more troublesome though, going by forum posts.

Back in the early days of In Car CD (and possibly domestic audio as well) there were two main players, Philips and Sony, and conflicting stories often appear if you try to research as to who was the biggest of the two in this field - I seem to think Philips (but only just).

What is interesting though, is that Laser failure with CDR/RW is indeed more prevelent with the CDC3, (Philips laser technology) as opposed to the generally more robust CDC2 (Sony Laser technology) and this observation is certainly not limited to Vauxhall units as other manufacturers who share common models in their range often have the "Philips" unit failing long before the "Sony" one does.

But here`s a thought then, and one for which I have no answer at present, as our service centre only uses genuine parts.

Older designed optical devices, as we all know, fail rapidly due to the amount of strain put on them, as they are operating outside of the parameters that they were designed to.

But how does a modern produced compatable replacement fair? Modern lasers are designed and built to much higher standards these days, and reading the data of a CDr should present no problems at all. The focus and tracking coils are all part of the optical block, replaced as a single unit, and the drive technology would remain unnaffected, save for the calibration required in fitting a new device. So if a modern equivalent laser could be found and fitted, would it mean that the unit could therefore become CDr/rw compatable ?

Food for thought?

 :-/

the only cdc failure i've had fail is the one in her rover last year.  a philips badged cdc, so presumably philips laser?

wonder what my old kenwood, still going strong, was. circa 1991 - one of the first 'compact' type where mech moves rather than the magazine, 10 disc jobby

Philips changer = Philips laser, Kenwood Changer = Sony Laser