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[tigers_gonads]

So simple, even I can understand it 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16301630

And its not from the Daily Mail 

[Varche]

The only solution is for countries to get a grip on their borrowing AND for the bloody banks to write off a lot of debt and start afresh.

As things stand now the EU (including the eurozone countries) is committing economic suicide.

You have to laugh at our so called leaders having yet another EU summit yesterday to discuss ideas- not to actually come up with anything concrete. They all arrive in limos - one per person and then have yet another sumptious banquet, oblivious to the pain and austerity ordinary folkks are enjoying (or going to enjoy even more)   

[Rods2]

Another piece of BBC pro-Euro, pro-EU socialist propaganda. 

They just conveniently forgot to tell you without the Euro there would not have been this problem as automatic economic stabilizers would have stopped it. They also forgot as pro-EU and pro-Euro that only real solution is the break up of the Euro and major-reform of the EU into a light regulation free trade area.

If each county had their own currencies with each setting interest rates to suit their country and their exchange rate reflecting the strength of their economies then these automatic economic stabilizers, would have kicked in, especially during the recession from 2008 onwards, European economies would now be growing slowly, like the US, with one or two exceptions like Greece, but the basket cases would be an IMF problem, not a major European and Global one

Unfortunately, Europe has a history of making things very difficult for themselves or going for the most destructive solution: WWI, Germany and France staying in Gold Standard after 1931, WWII, EU and finally the Euro.

IMHO what would have been much better for the whole of Europe rather than the EU would have been a free trade area allowing the free movement of people and goods, with common trading standards set through institutions like ISO, BS etc. I suspect Europe as a whole would be much richer now had this happened, as money would have flowed much more efficiently to where it was needed rather than being collected as taxes and passing through the EU as grants and subsidies.

EU financial summits to me are like 27 teams with 27 ropes playing tug-of-war, all huffing and puffing, trying to pull the centre marker, over the agenda which is best for their country, with the majority of the others stopping them. Personally, I can think of a much better use of the rope and that really would be major progress as we would be removing part of the problem 

In the last week the forces on the ropes have changed directions several times, with growth strategies, Eurobonds and Tobin taxes, the are all pulling ever more furiously in different directions on those ropes, with nothing moving or changing. I very much doubt that it will ever occur to any of them to play a different more productive game. All Woosters (especially CamMoron and Clegg) and not a Jeeves in sight.

Unfortunately, I think the only solution will be a disorderly one with countries forced from the Euro, in disorderly exits, blighting and devastating the continent economically for a generation.

In the 1950's 50% of sovereign nations defaulted on their debts, due to the 1930's depression and WWII. I suspect we will see over the next 10 years, 10 to 20% of sovereign countries defaulting (27 - 54 countries), as a result of this depression and the Euro, with the majority being European states.

I think Herbert Steins law: "If something cannot go on forever, it will stop" will win! 

[albitz]

Brilliantly thought out and explained as always Rod.
As you say - typical BBC pro EU propoganda.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Another piece of BBC pro-Euro, pro-EU socialist propaganda. 

They just conveniently forgot to tell you without the Euro there would not have been this problem as automatic economic stabilizers would have stopped it. They also forgot as pro-EU and pro-Euro that only real solution is the break up of the Euro and major-reform of the EU into a light regulation free trade area.

If each county had their own currencies with each setting interest rates to suit their country and their exchange rate reflecting the strength of their economies then these automatic economic stabilizers, would have kicked in, especially during the recession from 2008 onwards, European economies would now be growing slowly, like the US, with one or two exceptions like Greece, but the basket cases would be an IMF problem, not a major European and Global one

Unfortunately, Europe has a history of making things very difficult for themselves or going for the most destructive solution: WWI, Germany and France staying in Gold Standard after 1931, WWII, EU and finally the Euro.

IMHO what would have been much better for the whole of Europe rather than the EU would have been a free trade area allowing the free movement of people and goods, with common trading standards set through institutions like ISO, BS etc. I suspect Europe as a whole would be much richer now had this happened, as money would have flowed much more efficiently to where it was needed rather than being collected as taxes and passing through the EU as grants and subsidies.

EU financial summits to me are like 27 teams with 27 ropes playing tug-of-war, all huffing and puffing, trying to pull the centre marker, over the agenda which is best for their country, with the majority of the others stopping them. Personally, I can think of a much better use of the rope and that really would be major progress as we would be removing part of the problem 

In the last week the forces on the ropes have changed directions several times, with growth strategies, Eurobonds and Tobin taxes, the are all pulling ever more furiously in different directions on those ropes, with nothing moving or changing. I very much doubt that it will ever occur to any of them to play a different more productive game. All Woosters (especially CamMoron and Clegg) and not a Jeeves in sight.

Unfortunately, I think the only solution will be a disorderly one with countries forced from the Euro, in disorderly exits, blighting and devastating the continent economically for a generation.

In the 1950's 50% of sovereign nations defaulted on their debts, due to the 1930's depression and WWII. I suspect we will see over the next 10 years, 10 to 20% of sovereign countries defaulting (27 - 54 countries), as a result of this depression and the Euro, with the majority being European states.

I think Herbert Steins law: "If something cannot go on forever, it will stop" will win! 

I was only a nipper at the time, but I think this is exactly what was sold to the good people of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland when a referendum was held in the early 1970's on whether or not, to join 'The Common Market'..... 

[albitz]

Correct.

[Rods2]

That was what was explained at the time and was what the EU referendum was based on, but my parents didn't believe it or trust Heath and as events have shown, quite rightly so.

To see the real agenda Google FCO 30/1048 as this was the briefing paper produced by the Foreign office at the time and has now been released under the 30 year rule. The EU is behind schedule, as by now it was expected that the UK would be just a province of the EUSSR and the paper explains their strategy on how our sovereignty and democracy would be stolen from us before we realized it. This is still the plan, which is why it is so important to not trust the ConDemLab and vote UKIP.

Once you read and understand the tactics in this document, then how all the main parties, talk about the EU and spin the pretense of "Being in Europe, but not controlled by Europe" is all part of this strategy.

[Johnny English]

Really interesting to see the diagram of tendency of national/personal debt. Seems all of them are debtors such countries as personals but who is creditor? Everybody just asked for money but who gave? Some of them are members of G8 almost the strongest countries in the world who is stronger than them?  By my poor logics the strongest should have to be the main creditor but seems I'm wrong...

[Rods2]

Countries running trade surpluses and have high foreign currency reserves. These are primarily China, Japan and Germany. Much of the debt has been packaged into Credit Default Swaps and then missold. Which was one of the causes of the US sub-prime banking crisis in 2008, which bankrupted Lehman Brothers and AIG where they had insured them. 

When European countries start defaulting falling like flies, then we will really start to see some skeletons sitting in the banks vaults. 

We all know it will be bad, just none of us know how bad yet. 

[mantahatch]

Really interesting to see the diagram of tendency of national/personal debt. Seems all of them are debtors such countries as personals but who is creditor? Everybody just asked for money but who gave? Some of them are members of G8 almost the strongest countries in the world who is stronger than them?  By my poor logics the strongest should have to be the main creditor but seems I'm wrong...

I believe part of the problem was the money never existed. Simply I got to my bank and borrow £1000, they give it to me straight into my account, I pay for item with a cheque or plastic card on my account, it is paid into the sellers bank account no real money has ever changed hands and yet I am in debt to the bank. When I default on loaned money it is debt, but debt based on a fabrication in the first place. Yes I borrowed, yes seller got paid, yes I received the goods. But the banks never exchanged any real money.

Now that is simple for such a small amount, this is happening with millions on the stock markets every day, no one really buys or sells any shares, the brokers jsut fiddle it to suit.

It is all one rather large con, which they cannot face up to, or if they did we would probably be back in the dark ages and bartering for things, and if you cannot produce something to barter then you will probably starve.

Capitilism does not work, likewise communism does not work, we need to find a new way which does work.

These are of course just all my mad ramblings and no doubt someone will want to point out where I am wrong, please don't waste your time. It has taken my entire days brain function to get this far, I won't read any replies to my post.