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Author Topic: Are you ready for a long cold winter with limited gas?  (Read 5794 times)

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Rods2

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Re: Are you ready for a long cold winter with limited gas?
« Reply #45 on: 02 September 2014, 15:40:53 »

I've spent the last 6 months studying Putler and Russia, where I a strong believer in knowing your friends well and your enemies even better. Another on my rules is if I do something I do it well and have a clear understanding, or I don't do it at all. An example of one of my learning projects is economics.

Part  of fast learning is getting information from a vast range of sources and sifting out the wheat from the chaff and getting to the core of a problem, something I've had to do many times with R&D projects and also with my hobbies, so I've got good at it where it is something I do for several hours most days.

Putler is no Hitler? Wrong. No he doesn't have a funny little moustache, has less hair, probably has 2 balls, is not any more anti-Semitic that the average Russian and is not about to open any death camps any time soon. And TBH how much did any of these Hitler attributes affect the average English person between 1939-45? What did affect the average English person profoundly is Hitler's territorial ambitions and this is where Putler has more in common with Hitler than sets them apart. Who is the most dangerous of the two: IMO Putler. Why? Hitler disliked gas having been wounded by a gas attack in WWI, Sarin and Tabun, had he used them, may have cost the allies WWII. In comparison we had only WWI gases which were no where near as deadly, but even so Churchill has to be dissuaded twice by his general staff from using them. In contrast Putler and his generals don't agree with MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction) but that there will be a winner and losers and they think they will be the winner. They have better civil defence facilities, their biggest city Moscow has an Anti-ICBM missile shield and being a very big more rural population, more will survive. In the UK in the 1960's it was calculated between one and two thirds of the population would survive. In a conventional war against the West, currently Russia will lose, but once you factor in their willingness to project or the limited use of nuclear weapons then this changes the equation. Would Germany be prepared to risk lose Bonn or Italy Naples to save the Baltic countries? This is a dangerous divide and conquer strategy for the survival of NATO and the EU which Putler is out to destroy. Those that say Putler is no fascist, please explain why many in his inner circle are ultra nationalists like Vladimir Zhirinovsky, Alexander Prokhanov and Aleksandr Dugin and why the Belgian neo-Nazi Luc Michel and former Polish MP Mateusz Piskorski whose magazine Odala openly praised Nazi Germany were two 'international observers' at the Crimea referendum and why Putler likes hanging around with the fascist 'Night Wolves' motorcycle gang?

I now going to give three links on where the west is with its relationship with Russia. The first is being presented to the UK Parliaments Foreign Affairs Committee tomorrow, by probably the best of the best on Western, Russian geo-politics.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nLdiU4jRMYlVgtrX6JXs4L8vxwlN2NpVh8ndUgbYH94/preview?sle=true

The next is a good assessment on Putler by Tom Nichols a professor of national security affairs at the U.S. Naval War College:

http://thefederalist.com/2014/09/02/russias-leader-is-neither-a-realist-nor-a-nationalist/

and finally these are the stark choices that the west has to make over Ukraine:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/01/opinion/arm-ukraine-or-surrender.html?_r=2

The Middle East is a side show as if the West did nothing, there worst would be a few 9/11's and 7/7's which will kill a few thousands, we get it wrong against Russia then it will be the loss of our freedom and way of live and the deaths of millions.

Churchill was ridiculed when he warned in the 1930's about the German threat, by history has judged him rather kinder than Hitler's useful fools!
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Varche

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Re: Are you ready for a long cold winter with limited gas?
« Reply #46 on: 02 September 2014, 16:19:06 »

Picked these comments up on an expat forum. Not everyone thinks Russia is at fault.......

"Can we really be going to war against Russia over an illegal, usurping government that overthrew the democratically elected government in Ukraine? Can we really ignore that we, through the EU's expensionist policies, have brought this situation about? Can we really not see that Ukraine wants to be in the EU for the money and the free movement of peoples all the way to the UK benefits trough? Can we not see how Russia would never stand for neighbours like that?

Russia does not threaten the UK - but I know a group who does. Russia should be an ally. Once again, the west holds its cards upside down and parades a strange display of ideas and priorities
."

and

"I had to look again at your post to make sure I had not actually written it in my sleep. I agree with every word. There is no doubt that the coup against the legitimately elected government of the Ukraine was orchestrated by the West for its own greed.

We need to concentrate our efforts against the unmentionable. The 'group' that the BBC, among others, insists on referring to as 'forces', 'radicals' and 'fighters' instead of the cold blooded, murdering terrorists that they really are
".

and

"Brilliant summing up , the useless Baroness Ashton started all the overtures, sheer empire building. Imagine if Scotland became Independent and Russia made overtures to Them for joining them..the UK would be indignant. Same in reverse is happening. Ukraine is led by a bunch of Facists and I don't understand why people can't see the agenda either...perhaps it's media bias"
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Are you ready for a long cold winter with limited gas?
« Reply #47 on: 02 September 2014, 18:43:13 »

Picked these comments up on an expat forum. Not everyone thinks Russia is at fault.......

"Can we really be going to war against Russia over an illegal, usurping government that overthrew the democratically elected government in Ukraine? Can we really ignore that we, through the EU's expensionist policies, have brought this situation about? Can we really not see that Ukraine wants to be in the EU for the money and the free movement of peoples all the way to the UK benefits trough? Can we not see how Russia would never stand for neighbours like that?

Russia does not threaten the UK - but I know a group who does
. Russia should be an ally. Once again, the west holds its cards upside down and parades a strange display of ideas and priorities."

and

"I had to look again at your post to make sure I had not actually written it in my sleep. I agree with every word. There is no doubt that the coup against the legitimately elected government of the Ukraine was orchestrated by the West for its own greed.

We need to concentrate our efforts against the unmentionable. The 'group' that the BBC, among others, insists on referring to as 'forces', 'radicals' and 'fighters' instead of the cold blooded, murdering terrorists that they really are
".

and

"Brilliant summing up , the useless Baroness Ashton started all the overtures, sheer empire building. Imagine if Scotland became Independent and Russia made overtures to Them for joining them..the UK would be indignant. Same in reverse is happening. Ukraine is led by a bunch of Facists and I don't understand why people can't see the agenda either...perhaps it's media bias"


 :y :y :y
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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: Are you ready for a long cold winter with limited gas?
« Reply #48 on: 02 September 2014, 19:24:24 »

I've spent the last 6 months studying Putler and Russia, where I a strong believer in knowing your friends well and your enemies even better. Another on my rules is if I do something I do it well and have a clear understanding, or I don't do it at all. An example of one of my learning projects is economics.

Part  of fast learning is getting information from a vast range of sources and sifting out the wheat from the chaff and getting to the core of a problem, something I've had to do many times with R&D projects and also with my hobbies, so I've got good at it where it is something I do for several hours most days.

Putler is no Hitler? Wrong. No he doesn't have a funny little moustache, has less hair, ............TBH how much did any of these Hitler attributes affect the average English person between 1939-45? What did affect the average English person profoundly is Hitler's territorial ambitions and this is where Putler has more in common with Hitler than sets them apart. Who is the most dangerous of the two: IMO Putler. Why? Hitler disliked gas having been wounded by a gas attack in WWI.

Putler and his generals don't agree with MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction) but that there will be a winner and losers and they think they will be the winner. They have better civil defence facilities, their biggest city Moscow has an Anti-ICBM missile shield and being a very big more rural population, more will survive. In the UK in the 1960's it was calculated between one and two thirds of the population would survive. In a conventional war against the West, currently Russia will lose, but once you factor in their willingness to project or the limited use of nuclear weapons then this changes the equation. Would Germany be prepared to risk lose Bonn or Italy Naples to save the Baltic countries? This is a dangerous divide and conquer strategy for the survival of NATO and the EU which Putler is out to destroy.

Churchill was ridiculed when he warned in the 1930's about the German threat, by history has judged him rather kinder than Hitler's useful fools!

So you don't believe some of us also follow those rules?  In fact I have studied German and British military history for 40 years. I, like many also know that it is wise to know your enemies more than your friends, but never think actually anyone is your friend.  The difference between warnings about Hitler in the 1930s is that only a few, like Churchill, were worried about the growing menace.  Many in Britain, let alone around Europe, believed Hitler was a good thing, and the Nazis had the right political idea. Even briefly the British monarch openly supported Hitler, along with many figures in the upper classes, with a following behind Moseley. That does not exist with the Putin issue; the British establishment, and most of us, along with the USA and Europe KNOW he could be a great danger to our security, in a minor way approaching what the USSR represented during the Cold War. It has also nothing to do with what Hitler was, or Putin is, in physical appearance, so why raise all that? Who is suggesting it has anything to do with anything?. It is about the mental health of these individuals, and that certainly drove the former to do what he did, in the manner he did. I have stated before, Hitler took a whole fanatical nation with him, having built up his military using international finance, so he could.  That did affect the British (you stated English, why?) person in the street, with bombs falling on them, evacuees of occupied countries arriving, many of the men set to fight the Nazis, food rationing, and of course the loss of loved ones in the military. Putin is not in a position to do all of that as easily as Hitler did. As for Putin gambling over the MAD theory; do you think the modern Russians, with constant contact with the west, the internet, and television, are going to be happy entering a war where they could loose everything they have gained so far on their road to democracy when they KNOW what their leader is? Once more Hitler had brilliant propaganda, along with a message of reversing the Versailles Treaty, destroying the Jews, along with the Communists, then creating a new greater Germany of the Third Reich. Has Putin got any of that going to pursuade the Russian people of a glorious war and sacrifice?

Anyway, Putin is not in a position ( as I have listed in a previous post) to take on the countries of the West as they represent a real challenge (nuclear) to his forces, the type of opposition Hitler did not face. Hitler (but not many of his generals) felt he could take on the countries of Europe, thinking that Britain would let him do so.  There was little challenge and the Nazis rolled on. Putin is not in that position, and certainly has so far not launched a Blitzkrieg, rolled 2,500 tanks and 3.5 million men across European borders, with major air support, as Hitler did at 0300 hours on 22nd June 1941 to enter Russia. Putin faces determined opposition from the international community who are very aware that he and any ambitions he has must be curtailed; that is what the conferences have, and will, be discussing.  The West is not a soft touch as it was in 1938/9. Putin cannot be a Hitler with an AXIS. Putin is alone facing Europe and the USA, still a super-power.

continued/...............

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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: Are you ready for a long cold winter with limited gas?
« Reply #49 on: 02 September 2014, 19:24:35 »

But, I could keep repeating myself, but let me again ask the questions that still no-one has answered (it is easy explaining what you think is wrong; harder to come up with answers):

"Does anyone want WWIII?  Does anyone have a better answer than using good diplomacy, the type of strong diplomacy that wasn't available to be used against Hitler in the 1930s? What would YOU do if YOU personally were a leading politician in the diplomatic process representing the USA, Britain, German, France, and NATO in general?  Could you do any better? There will be no "Peace in our time" agreements however, and Putin must realise that.

It is amazing how many armchair critics come out at times like this spreading doom and gloom but doing nothing to constructively find an answer that will work.  As said, this has happened throughout history, and will continue for as long as man rules the Earth."
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Sir Tigger KC

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Re: Are you ready for a long cold winter with limited gas?
« Reply #50 on: 02 September 2014, 21:15:05 »

But, I could keep repeating myself, but let me again ask the questions that still no-one has answered (it is easy explaining what you think is wrong; harder to come up with answers):

"Does anyone want WWIII?  Does anyone have a better answer than using good diplomacy, the type of strong diplomacy that wasn't available to be used against Hitler in the 1930s? What would YOU do if YOU personally were a leading politician in the diplomatic process representing the USA, Britain, German, France, and NATO in general?  Could you do any better? There will be no "Peace in our time" agreements however, and Putin must realise that.

It is amazing how many armchair critics come out at times like this spreading doom and gloom but doing nothing to constructively find an answer that will work.  As said, this has happened throughout history, and will continue for as long as man rules the Earth."


Of course no one wants WWIII, but you have to admit that it is a very worrying situation.  :(  For the last 10 -15 years or so while Western countries have continually cut their military spending, Russia has been modernising and building up it's armed forces. So there are plenty of parallels to the late 1930's.  ::)

As Churchill rightly said 'Jaw jaw is better than war war!', but the EU's response to an aggressive neighbour who has annexed a portion of another neighbouring country's territory, seems pretty feeble and dosn't seem to be having much effect on Mr Putin!  ::)

If he's not bothered by our diplomatic response with the limited sanctions that have been imposed, then he's not going to be that bothered by any military action either, as that will be limited too, because I don't think we can rely on Uncle Sam this time!  :-\
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Are you ready for a long cold winter with limited gas?
« Reply #51 on: 02 September 2014, 21:40:51 »

But, I could keep repeating myself, but let me again ask the questions that still no-one has answered (it is easy explaining what you think is wrong; harder to come up with answers):

"Does anyone want WWIII?  Does anyone have a better answer than using good diplomacy, the type of strong diplomacy that wasn't available to be used against Hitler in the 1930s? What would YOU do if YOU personally were a leading politician in the diplomatic process representing the USA, Britain, German, France, and NATO in general?  Could you do any better? There will be no "Peace in our time" agreements however, and Putin must realise that.

It is amazing how many armchair critics come out at times like this spreading doom and gloom but doing nothing to constructively find an answer that will work.  As said, this has happened throughout history, and will continue for as long as man rules the Earth."


Of course no one wants WWIII, but you have to admit that it is a very worrying situation.  :(  For the last 10 -15 years or so while Western countries have continually cut their military spending, Russia has been modernising and building up it's armed forces. So there are plenty of parallels to the late 1930's.  ::)

As Churchill rightly said 'Jaw jaw is better than war war!', but the EU's response to an aggressive neighbour who has annexed a portion of another neighbouring country's territory, seems pretty feeble and dosn't seem to be having much effect on Mr Putin!  ::)

If he's not bothered by our diplomatic response with the limited sanctions that have been imposed, then he's not going to be that bothered by any military action either, as that will be limited too, because I don't think we can rely on Uncle Sam this time!  :-\


lets assume Putin decided to use force against Ukraine, why west will initiate a war for lands where its in the middle of russia and many of the people talking Russian.. thats the question


another question, ISIS is killing people everyday and in such a violent manner .. is it less important ?
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Sir Tigger KC

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Re: Are you ready for a long cold winter with limited gas?
« Reply #52 on: 02 September 2014, 22:52:12 »


lets assume Putin decided to use force against Ukraine, why west will initiate a war for lands where its in the middle of russia and many of the people talking Russian.. thats the question


another question, ISIS is killing people everyday and in such a violent manner .. is it less important ?

In some ways I think so.  The Ukraine situation has potential to escalate into a wider European war, whereas IS so far is contained to the Middle East and the direct threat to Western Countries is from terrorist attacks.  :(

Of course with Turkey being a member of NATO and then if IS was to invade Turkey then......  ::)
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Are you ready for a long cold winter with limited gas?
« Reply #53 on: 03 September 2014, 10:00:24 »


lets assume Putin decided to use force against Ukraine, why west will initiate a war for lands where its in the middle of russia and many of the people talking Russian.. thats the question


another question, ISIS is killing people everyday and in such a violent manner .. is it less important ?

In some ways I think so.  The Ukraine situation has potential to escalate into a wider European war, whereas IS so far is contained to the Middle East and the direct threat to Western Countries is from terrorist attacks.  :(

Of course with Turkey being a member of NATO and then if IS was to invade Turkey then......  ::)


may be its to remind some facts


some western countries spending huge sums to control middle east which is incomparable to the sum spent for Ukraine.. this why Rods trying to attract attention ;D


and also some western countries intelligence services have some relations with IS .. thats known..


now will my country be invaded by IS, I think there is no need >:( >:(   which there are lots of copies already existent.. >:( >:( >:( >:(







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chrisgixer

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Re: Are you ready for a long cold winter with limited gas?
« Reply #54 on: 03 September 2014, 10:32:56 »

Shhhhh. Obama speaks....
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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: Are you ready for a long cold winter with limited gas?
« Reply #55 on: 03 September 2014, 12:13:44 »

But, I could keep repeating myself, but let me again ask the questions that still no-one has answered (it is easy explaining what you think is wrong; harder to come up with answers):

"Does anyone want WWIII?  Does anyone have a better answer than using good diplomacy, the type of strong diplomacy that wasn't available to be used against Hitler in the 1930s? What would YOU do if YOU personally were a leading politician in the diplomatic process representing the USA, Britain, German, France, and NATO in general?  Could you do any better? There will be no "Peace in our time" agreements however, and Putin must realise that.

It is amazing how many armchair critics come out at times like this spreading doom and gloom but doing nothing to constructively find an answer that will work.  As said, this has happened throughout history, and will continue for as long as man rules the Earth."


Of course no one wants WWIII, but you have to admit that it is a very worrying situation.  :(  For the last 10 -15 years or so while Western countries have continually cut their military spending, Russia has been modernising and building up it's armed forces. So there are plenty of parallels to the late 1930's.  ::)

As Churchill rightly said 'Jaw jaw is better than war war!', but the EU's response to an aggressive neighbour who has annexed a portion of another neighbouring country's territory, seems pretty feeble and dosn't seem to be having much effect on Mr Putin!  ::)

If he's not bothered by our diplomatic response with the limited sanctions that have been imposed, then he's not going to be that bothered by any military action either, as that will be limited too, because I don't think we can rely on Uncle Sam this time!  :-\


lets assume Putin decided to use force against Ukraine, why west will initiate a war for lands where its in the middle of russia and many of the people talking Russian.. thats the question


another question, ISIS is killing people everyday and in such a violent manner .. is it less important ?

That is right Cem, it is, for me, MORE important than what action Putin has taken so far. It is a far more dangerous situation that already threatens us in the UK, which of course our security services have recognised by raising our Terrorist Threat Level to "Severe", the second highest possible.

It has been announced that the Afghan Taliban Commander Mirwais is considering joining up with IS

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-29009125

This must be far more worrying to Europe, and the USA, than any festering threat by Putin to take over a part of Ukraine. He CAN be "limited" and eventually neutralized, but the Taliban plus IS will be far harder to oppose, as it has been proved in both Afghan and Iraq. This would totally destabilize the Middle East, interrupt/stop the oil flow to the West, and eventually spill over into Europe by way of "insider terrorists". This scares me far more than Putin and his current aims. He does not have the conviction of the Taliban and IS (nor Hitler!) to destroy the West, and create an Islamic State (Empire?). Compared to them Putin, with the "conventional" military forces I have highlighted before that can be stopped, looks like a cuddly teddy bear, not a Great Grisley Bear of Russia. The IS and Taliban are snakes who move silently and strike without fear.  Russians are not prepared to die for a religion or political cause, but the members of the IS and Taliban are prepared to do so for both; for Allah and for the Islamic heaven they believe they will go to!

That is to be feared like suicide bombers are to be feared. Hitler also had those fanatics fighting for him in tens of thousands; prepared to die for the honour of the Third Reich, Germany, and their Norse Valhalla. :( :(

That is all why I will propose a different view and suggestion:

Join up with Putin and together fight the Middle East menace that threatens us all. Work with Russia, as we did in WW2, to stop the disease of extreme Islam. :o :o ;)
« Last Edit: 03 September 2014, 12:22:08 by Lizzie Zoom »
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The Sheriff

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Re: Are you ready for a long cold winter with limited gas?
« Reply #56 on: 03 September 2014, 13:13:55 »

I've told you my solution before. NOAH! Get building, lad.
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The Sheriff

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Re: Are you ready for a long cold winter with limited gas?
« Reply #57 on: 03 September 2014, 15:55:44 »

Put this into the mix: There's going to be US-led military exercises in Western Ukraine later this month. American troops actually inside Ukraine. Nice.
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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: Are you ready for a long cold winter with limited gas?
« Reply #58 on: 03 September 2014, 16:37:46 »

As I have stated, Putin requires finance and to do that he needs peace; war is no good for him and Russia.

If you have any doubts read this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29043465

Russia is a safer bet for investors, that the Russian economy desperately need, if peace reigns.

With Hitler it was the reverse: he needed war to gain materials, oil, manpower (slave) etc., to build his Third Reich. :y
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ckz

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Re: Are you ready for a long cold winter with limited gas?
« Reply #59 on: 04 September 2014, 19:45:21 »

Well, if our goverment would keep there nose out of business other country's having, we wouldn't pay the price for it.
Every time the uk mix in a conflict to save some poor souls which drain our money at the end, we paying more for petrol, gas, and so on.
Everything we consum from other country's is going up after we being the poor people saver.

Just keep out of it,enjoy the cheap closes from the east, the cheap petrol the cheap gas, get the most of it.
If they want to kill themselves let them do it.
They started it let them finish it, keep out of it, take what's left over.

And btw, yes you can now start telling is our responsibilities and stuff, but sorry I don't see it this way and there are lots of folks out there which see this the same way.
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