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[STEMO]

I had an issue with BT that lasted nearly 12 months, intermittent BB slow speeds ect. Had contacted there help center on the other side of the world countless time and getting now joy I emailed the CO of BT and got a call from their UK customer complaint department in Newcastle. To cut a long story short I had be telling them for month that there is a known problem in the area with supply which they kept denying, all I was wanting was a bit of honesty from them to admit it. The only time I got that was when the Engineer call to say he was on his way but said "there going to be very little I can do as it's a supply problem from the main exchange 10 miles away". 
The best thing BT did was to put their prices up in July as that allowed me to move to another SP without having to pay BT the get out fee. As when they put up the price they change the contract making it void.
I am now with Vodaphone and have been for two month and having no issues BB speed is up and stable, plus help center is UK based.

Surely Voda use the same infrastructure?

[Mr Gav]

Quite easy, they have a virtual monopoly on lines, and a recent decision not to hive off Openreach makes it even easier for them to ignore customers. BTW, I'm with Plusnet whose customer service has always been good, even though they are owned by BT, so I would take the line they put in if possible.

Unfortunately we can`t do that as our contract is with BT, it doesn`t help when they keep changing the line number to try and help. If it was up to me I`d tell them to shove the hub where the sun doesn`t shine and cancel it and then go with someone else.

[TheBoy]

If that is the case, why did BT fight so hard to retain Openreach? I'm sorry, I am not convinced that BT do not influence their wholly owned subsidiary company. I know that certain curbs have been put in place in the last few weeks, but only under screaming protest from BT.

There is no day to day influence over Openreach.  The rules have been in place since OFCOM insisted on the separation, which was when Openreach was formed several (10ish) years ago.  The recent talk has been about nothing really, just the regular regulatory review.  Its only been picked up by the media because the woman heading up Talk Talk has been especially vocal, as probably looking to deflect their huge drop in customers following their free-for-all access to all customer details snafu last year.

Apart from the tiny minority, Openreach are a requirement for all ISPs, BT included. BT know that, and what to keep it healthy, and more coverage.  I suspect that we'd have near universal (ie, all cabs and E/O lines, though some subscribers would still be too far from their DSLAM) Superfast coverage if BT controlled Openreach...  ...which would be better for everyone (all Openreach reliant ISPs and their customers).  But OFCOM want it run as a separate entity, so any cabinet upgrade has to be commercially viable to Openreach, and can't rely on extra revenues that BT may earn (by being able to sell additional services).

In the highly competitive ISP market we have in the UK, Openreach don't make a huge amount of money against their investments, certainly not enough to do R&D for the next generation of internet (Ultrafast, and beyond).  This is one of the few areas where the larger BT Group can help - it can do the R&D. BT has been at the forefront of the next step to enable Ultrafast in developing and testing g.fast.


If Openreach were to be forcibly sold off, rather than the legal separation currently in place, BT would end up with it's most important supplier not being able to provide what BT wanted.  BT's future strategy involves a need for fast, universal internet connectivity for its customers.  Openreach's meagre profits would end up entirely swallowed by both its own pension deficits and its invester's who would need a decent return, so no further R&D, not further expansion of the Superfast/Ultrafast/Whatever Next networks.  There would not be another supplier willing to fill the gap outside of the major, more profitable areas.  That's why BT are so keen to ensure Openreach's health.  Its also why Openreach are so keen to remain part of BT Group.


But if you think BT Consumer (the bit you deal with) have any more influence/contact/control over Openreach than Talk Talk, Sky, Zen, A&A, or any other UK ISP then I'm afraid you are incorrect.  They all have the same suite of systems to use. No more, no less.

[TheBoy]

I had an issue with BT that lasted nearly 12 months, intermittent BB slow speeds ect. Had contacted there help center on the other side of the world countless time and getting now joy I emailed the CO of BT and got a call from their UK customer complaint department in Newcastle. To cut a long story short I had be telling them for month that there is a known problem in the area with supply which they kept denying, all I was wanting was a bit of honesty from them to admit it. The only time I got that was when the Engineer call to say he was on his way but said "there going to be very little I can do as it's a supply problem from the main exchange 10 miles away". 
The best thing BT did was to put their prices up in July as that allowed me to move to another SP without having to pay BT the get out fee. As when they put up the price they change the contract making it void.
I am now with Vodaphone and have been for two month and having no issues BB speed is up and stable, plus help center is UK based.

Surely Voda use the same infrastructure?

They do. Voda don't do LLU. So the lines, and the links out of the exchange to the nearest PoP that Voda have presence at are all the same.

[VXL V6]

Generally we find Openreach to be far better than the woeful Kelly or M V Quinn which seem to be experts in snipping live lines to punch down new D-side connections (because their notes tell them a line was terminated... doesn't take a genius to connect the testphone first to check but time is money to these bandits). You also find that the bandits are incapable of terminating a line more than 2 Metres from the site DP.

BT Newsite and Temp site provision varies massively between BT Newsites regions with some regions not offering the same provisions as others (ie. only pulling in a 50 pair into a building with 100+ residencies + offices). Generally you need a good account manager to sort these sort of problems out because any other form of contact is just a waste of time and oxygen.

[Stargazer57N]

I think Vodaphone probably do use the same lines but I'm getting a much better service than with bt at half the cost. Plus things you have to pay for with BT come fee with Vodaphone such as free evenings and weekend calls.

[Varche]

In a previous life I was a project manager for Business for a large cable company. The Sales guys would go out and sell whatever the customer wanted and crucially when....

Then the battle commenced. I could fill a book with stories like this one.

Happy (?) times

Personally I believe it is the right decision not to spin Openreach off. It was pretty dire making BT sell off O2

[Shackeng]

If that is the case, why did BT fight so hard to retain Openreach? I'm sorry, I am not convinced that BT do not influence their wholly owned subsidiary company. I know that certain curbs have been put in place in the last few weeks, but only under screaming protest from BT.

There is no day to day influence over Openreach.  The rules have been in place since OFCOM insisted on the separation, which was when Openreach was formed several (10ish) years ago.  The recent talk has been about nothing really, just the regular regulatory review.  Its only been picked up by the media because the woman heading up Talk Talk has been especially vocal, as probably looking to deflect their huge drop in customers following their free-for-all access to all customer details snafu last year.

Apart from the tiny minority, Openreach are a requirement for all ISPs, BT included. BT know that, and what to keep it healthy, and more coverage.  I suspect that we'd have near universal (ie, all cabs and E/O lines, though some subscribers would still be too far from their DSLAM) Superfast coverage if BT controlled Openreach...  ...which would be better for everyone (all Openreach reliant ISPs and their customers).  But OFCOM want it run as a separate entity, so any cabinet upgrade has to be commercially viable to Openreach, and can't rely on extra revenues that BT may earn (by being able to sell additional services).

In the highly competitive ISP market we have in the UK, Openreach don't make a huge amount of money against their investments, certainly not enough to do R&D for the next generation of internet (Ultrafast, and beyond).  This is one of the few areas where the larger BT Group can help - it can do the R&D. BT has been at the forefront of the next step to enable Ultrafast in developing and testing g.fast.


If Openreach were to be forcibly sold off, rather than the legal separation currently in place, BT would end up with it's most important supplier not being able to provide what BT wanted.  BT's future strategy involves a need for fast, universal internet connectivity for its customers.  Openreach's meagre profits would end up entirely swallowed by both its own pension deficits and its invester's who would need a decent return, so no further R&D, not further expansion of the Superfast/Ultrafast/Whatever Next networks.  There would not be another supplier willing to fill the gap outside of the major, more profitable areas.  That's why BT are so keen to ensure Openreach's health.  Its also why Openreach are so keen to remain part of BT Group.


But if you think BT Consumer (the bit you deal with) have any more influence/contact/control over Openreach than Talk Talk, Sky, Zen, A&A, or any other UK ISP then I'm afraid you are incorrect.  They all have the same suite of systems to use. No more, no less.

And I'm quite sure the Chinese wall ensures that BT retail never talk to their counterparts on the other side to ask for a favour now and then. Especially not to their buddy who just moved across. Sadly I have got to the age where I am completely cynical about all such arrangements, no matter how well-meaning the legislation that controls it.

[TheBoy]

And I'm quite sure the Chinese wall ensures that BT retail never talk to their counterparts on the other side to ask for a favour now and then. Especially not to their buddy who just moved across. Sadly I have got to the age where I am completely cynical about all such arrangements, no matter how well-meaning the legislation that controls it.

While I can't believe that never, ever happens, there are a few problems with that...

Generally, now, there is little/no migration of staff between OR and BT, so that scenario would be rare.  And certainly "George" from Bangalore is unlike to be best mates with hairy arsed Dave from Daghenam;)

The systems do not seem to allow for such jobs either.

A company the size of BT means any such shenanigans would quickly become public.

In a previous role, I was amongst a small part of the company that could talk to both BT and OR, so am pretty familiar with said barrier, and its pretty robust.