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Author Topic: Environmental No10 Petition  (Read 689 times)

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Lizzie_Zoom

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Environmental No10 Petition
« on: 11 July 2009, 15:03:43 »

Further to my contribution in the "Heaven and Earth" thread I invite you to support a Petition to No.10:

"Within this debate on the sources of the various environmental arguments, and particularly on the issue of global warning, let us not forget that what these sayers and purveyors of doom or enlightenment think, it will be the key politicians of the world who will make the final decisions.

A lot of individuals, who lack the necessary scientific knowledge and evidence to back up their arguments, are cashing in on this debate for their hour of fame, and income, but no doubt will be ignored by the politicians and / or their advisers.

The politicians, who are not scientifically trained, are obtaining advise from the general scientific community, but are also balancing the needs of their nation with the controversial requirements of the environmental argument put forward by those said "experts".  Jobs and the economy keep or lose the votes that keep politicians in power, so you can almost guarantee whatever is advised our esteemed leaders will not commit political suicide over environmental issues.  Although, rightly, we are cynical about their motives, the political leaders will endeavour to satisfy the citizens of their home country, and no more so than Gordon Brown who faces a General Election within the next eleven months.

What I am saying is simple; it IS the political leaders who are critical in all this, NOT whoever has published this, that or another! Therefore, if as individuals you feel strongly enough about this argument, on one side or the other, then start lobbying your MP's NOW, regardless of their parties colour.  Express your feelings to them, along with writing to the Prime Minister himself, and let them all know how exactly you feel about this and how you will vote if they follow a road contrary to your beliefs. This is a time for strong democracy, so do not say "my voice does not matter", because it does , unless of course you keep quiet and timid!!  After that you can do no more.

Never forget either that although Great Britain has still a significant voice in the world, the environmental debate will finally be settled by the political leaders of the major G8 industrial states. Therefore, forget what the media impart to us in Britain, it will not form any part of the final solution, it is how all the G8 leaders act that is crucial, and so we all across the world must continually remind them that they act on our behalf.  They will however be influenced by the NGOs of this world, and their aligned "experts".  That IS the danger area for us all, so do not forget them in your lobbying (and actions?). Let them know, WE the people exist, and they have no automatic right to speak for us!

The rest is over to you, and not the likes of Gore, professors, or any demigods!" 



I am prepared to do my bit and start the aforementioned petition on the No.10 web site,to send a message from a consensus of opinion on the OOF in regards to the environmental argument if that is what you want.

Suggestions please from you on what we require being stated as our message to Gordon Brown on the environmental issue.  I would particularly welcome input from our leading environmental debaters, Nickbat and Zulu.

 ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

« Last Edit: 11 July 2009, 15:04:02 by Lizzie_Zoom »
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Nickbat

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Re: Environmental No10 Petition
« Reply #1 on: 11 July 2009, 15:15:49 »

See my response in the "Heaven and Earth" thread.
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Nickbat

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Re: Environmental No10 Petition
« Reply #2 on: 11 July 2009, 15:28:08 »

Perhaps I should expand my views, Lizzie.

We used to live in a democracy, in which the views of the people, as expressed through the ballot box or petition, would have direct influence over government policy. As members of the electorate, we now have basically no power whatseover. Political power rests with the elite, in some ways, not even the elite you see at Westminster.

This change has occurred only during the years of New Labour under Blair (specifically) and now, lamely, under Brown.

Although the left would not admit it, we had more democracy under Mrs Thatcher. She, after all, was brought down by the popular will of the people over the "Poll Tax". One of the first acts of Blair when he came into office was to reduce PMQs to a once-a-week short charade. He was not interested in parliamentary democracy and his successor is of the same mind.

Brown's popularity is at an all-time low and a recent petition calling for him to go was signed by well over 50,000 people. He is still there, and he is still smiling.  >:(   
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crazyjoetavola

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Re: Environmental No10 Petition
« Reply #3 on: 11 July 2009, 16:11:45 »

Quote
Further to my contribution in the "Heaven and Earth" thread I invite you to support a Petition to No.10:

 
I am prepared to do my bit and start the aforementioned petition on the No.10 web site,to send a message from a consensus of opinion on the OOF in regards to the environmental argument if that is what you want.

Suggestions please from you on what we require being stated as our message to Gordon Brown on the environmental issue.  I would particularly welcome input from our leading environmental debaters, Nickbat and Zulu.

 ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)




.....obviously Nick has some firm views on this Ms Zoom but I'm inclined to walk with you.

Having knowledge of the machine these petitions never gain much traction however that should not be a factor in rejecting the inclination to raise one.

This topic has been debated to death - rightly so - but it's time to belly-up to the bar and indicate one's concerns.  The old saying about talk being cheap but whisky costing money is apropos in this instance and it's one of the very few ways that any citizen can voice an objection to particular policies in the absence of a general election.

The construction of such a document should in my view be brief, cover the kernel of the subject matter and be free from hysterical and unrealistic language. 

How that will be done requires some thought - but I feel that's worth doing, after all the outcome of the policies presently being formulated by the current administration, and by the next one, will have a profound effect on each and every individual in this nation - including every member of this forum.


I'm not sure that the forum name should be linked to any petition as this may break protocol - but I'm sure that there will be a view expressed on that from the appropriate quarter.
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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: Environmental No10 Petition
« Reply #4 on: 11 July 2009, 16:28:30 »

Quote
Quote
Further to my contribution in the "Heaven and Earth" thread I invite you to support a Petition to No.10:

 
I am prepared to do my bit and start the aforementioned petition on the No.10 web site,to send a message from a consensus of opinion on the OOF in regards to the environmental argument if that is what you want.

Suggestions please from you on what we require being stated as our message to Gordon Brown on the environmental issue.  I would particularly welcome input from our leading environmental debaters, Nickbat and Zulu.

 ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)




.....obviously Nick has some firm views on this Ms Zoom but I'm inclined to walk with you.

Having knowledge of the machine these petitions never gain much traction however that should not be a factor in rejecting the inclination to raise one.

This topic has been debated to death - rightly so - but it's time to belly-up to the bar and indicate one's concerns.  The old saying about talk being cheap but whisky costing money is apropos in this instance and it's one of the very few ways that any citizen can voice an objection to particular policies in the absence of a general election.

The construction of such a document should in my view be brief, cover the kernel of the subject matter and be free from hysterical and unrealistic language. 

How that will be done requires some thought - but I feel that's worth doing, after all the outcome of the policies presently being formulated by the current administration, and by the next one, will have a profound effect on each and every individual in this nation - including every member of this forum.


I'm not sure that the forum name should be linked to any petition as this may break protocol - but I'm sure that there will be a view expressed on that from the appropriate quarter.


It was not my intention to involve directly the OOF.  I will put my name to it.

As I have answered Nick in his Heaven and Earth thread No.10, and go on to say here is, a number of Government agencies have my e-mail as I am prepared to stick my head above the parapet for what I believe 8-) 8-) 8-)  That is the difference between the doers and the talkers!  Sorry if that offends anyone, but that is the simple truth.  In this country we have a lot of belly achers who say an awful lot, but actually do f' all about it! ::) ::) ::) ::)

The only way to attain change is to fight for ones beliefs, expressing them loud and clear to all who will listen!  How many more pages are we going to fill on the Forum with, what would seem, to be nothing but hot winded chat??! ::) ::) ::)
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HI2DVY

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Re: Environmental No10 Petition
« Reply #5 on: 11 July 2009, 16:43:04 »

Dangerous talk indeed. Having read the thread I still don't know what the petition is for (or against) and I very much doubt if there is a consensus of opininion among OOF members on the matter.
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crazyjoetavola

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Re: Environmental No10 Petition
« Reply #6 on: 11 July 2009, 17:03:22 »

Quote
Dangerous talk indeed. Having read the thread I still don't know what the petition is for (or against) and I very much doubt if there is a consensus of opininion among OOF members on the matter.


 ........your views are valid H12 but to regard legitimate debate on this matter as dangerous isn't quite right.

It's my understanding that that those of us who feel the need to consider this avenue will do so in a way which will not involve this forum.


Any other forum member who decides to voice his/her opinion by signing such a petition would do so in a private manner and not as a member of this group.

Whether or not there is a consensus for such action is irrelevant as such consensus is not being sought - what is being done however is raising the matter in a legitimate way to increase awareness in a situation which will undoubtedly affect us all.
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HI2DVY

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Re: Environmental No10 Petition
« Reply #7 on: 11 July 2009, 17:24:31 »

Quote
Quote
Dangerous talk indeed. Having read the thread I still don't know what the petition is for (or against) and I very much doubt if there is a consensus of opininion among OOF members on the matter.


 ........your views are valid H12 but to regard legitimate debate on this matter as dangerous isn't quite right.

It's my understanding that that those of us who feel the need to consider this avenue will do so in a way which will not involve this forum.


Any other forum member who decides to voice his/her opinion by signing such a petition would do so in a private manner and not as a member of this group.

Whether or not there is a consensus for such action is irrelevant as such consensus is not being sought - what is being done however is raising the matter in a legitimate way to increase awareness in a situation which will undoubtedly affect us all.


My point exactly. It is a free country, hence the availability of such a website to raise such petitions. So don't look for "mates" to back you up, just do it.

On the topic of consensus I believe it was Ms Zoom who was seeking this, Quote... "to send a message from a consensus of opinion on the OOF in regards to the environmental argument".

Just what is the argument... ?
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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: Environmental No10 Petition
« Reply #8 on: 11 July 2009, 17:28:05 »

Quote
Quote
Dangerous talk indeed. Having read the thread I still don't know what the petition is for (or against) and I very much doubt if there is a consensus of opininion among OOF members on the matter.


 ........your views are valid H12 but to regard legitimate debate on this matter as dangerous isn't quite right.

It's my understanding that that those of us who feel the need to consider this avenue will do so in a way which will not involve this forum.


Any other forum member who decides to voice his/her opinion by signing such a petition would do so in a private manner and not as a member of this group.

Whether or not there is a consensus for such action is irrelevant as such consensus is not being sought - what is being done however is raising the matter in a legitimate way to increase awareness in a situation which will undoubtedly affect us all.


Nicely summed up Zulu! :y :y :y :y

Individual "signatures" would have to be applied directly to the No.10 Petition itself, as is normal practice 8-) 8-).

As for the statement of intent that should be applied to the Petition; it is up to members who are interested to suggest. ;) ;)  If no one is interested, fine.   I will say no more :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
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crazyjoetavola

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Re: Environmental No10 Petition
« Reply #9 on: 11 July 2009, 17:53:46 »

Quote
Quote
Quote
Dangerous talk indeed. Having read the thread I still don't know what the petition is for (or against) and I very much doubt if there is a consensus of opininion among OOF members on the matter.


 ........your views are valid H12 but to regard legitimate debate on this matter as dangerous isn't quite right.

It's my understanding that that those of us who feel the need to consider this avenue will do so in a way which will not involve this forum.


Any other forum member who decides to voice his/her opinion by signing such a petition would do so in a private manner and not as a member of this group.

Whether or not there is a consensus for such action is irrelevant as such consensus is not being sought - what is being done however is raising the matter in a legitimate way to increase awareness in a situation which will undoubtedly affect us all.


My point exactly. It is a free country, hence the availability of such a website to raise such petitions. So don't look for "mates" to back you up, just do it.

On the topic of consensus I believe it was Ms Zoom who was seeking this, Quote... "to send a message from a consensus of opinion on the OOF in regards to the environmental argument".

Just what is the argument... ?


...............I'm not asking for anyone to back me up H12 I'm quite capable of conducting my own business - I am well acquainted with big boy’s rules.  This should not prevent anyone here expressing a valid opinion however.

I think Ms Zoom has already made known her position on the OOF point you make.

Finally there is no argument, there has been debate about the legitimacy or otherwise of the assertions made by the Green lobby concerning climate change.

This debate is based on the content of previous correspondence on the matter all noted within the various threads posted - but this needs to be read before arriving at any conclusion.
« Last Edit: 11 July 2009, 21:30:10 by crazyjoetavola »
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HI2DVY

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Re: Environmental No10 Petition
« Reply #10 on: 11 July 2009, 18:04:49 »

Nothin' like a bit of politics to get the blood pumpin' eh  ;)
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crazyjoetavola

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Re: Environmental No10 Petition
« Reply #11 on: 11 July 2009, 18:11:02 »

Quote
Nothin' like a bit of politics to get the blood pumpin' eh  ;)


.... ;D you're right enough there H12 it's about the only thing pumping my blood at the moment but unfortunately that blood is not being pumped in the right direction if you know what I mean - but that's old age for you ::) ::) :y
« Last Edit: 11 July 2009, 20:44:01 by crazyjoetavola »
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Nickbat

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Re: Environmental No10 Petition
« Reply #12 on: 11 July 2009, 18:19:11 »

There are currently 231 petitions on the No 10 site, and that is for environmental subjects alone. :o

I have to be honest and say that this online petition scheme is just a sop to appear to be listening to the people. I doubt if most of them even get past the desk of a junior civil servant. >:(

I also agree that this is not an OOF matter. I am worried that my eagerness to promote awareness of this cause, even though I believe it be VITAL to everyone, may nevertheless be boring the pants of some members.

Maybe I need to ban myself. :( 
« Last Edit: 11 July 2009, 18:19:28 by Nickbat »
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crazyjoetavola

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Re: Environmental No10 Petition
« Reply #13 on: 11 July 2009, 20:54:08 »

Quote
There are currently 231 petitions on the No 10 site, and that is for environmental subjects alone. :o

I have to be honest and say that this online petition scheme is just a sop to appear to be listening to the people. I doubt if most of them even get past the desk of a junior civil servant. >:(

I also agree that this is not an OOF matter. I am worried that my eagerness to promote awareness of this cause, even though I believe it be VITAL to everyone, may nevertheless be boring the pants of some members.
Maybe I need to ban myself. :( 


....I think that you're doing a disservice to the integrity and importance of your position Nick and it may be presumptions to consider that no other member of this forum, besides the usual suspects, is interested in the debate.

The fact that many other members don't comment has no bearing in what they may learn about the subject when they scan the correspondence.
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crazyjoetavola

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Re: Environmental No10 Petition
« Reply #14 on: 11 July 2009, 21:04:47 »

Quote
There are currently 231 petitions on the No 10 site, and that is for environmental subjects alone. :o

I have to be honest and say that this online petition scheme is just a sop to appear to be listening to the people. I doubt if most of them even get past the desk of a junior civil servant. >:(
I also agree that this is not an OOF matter. I am worried that my eagerness to promote awareness of this cause, even though I believe it be VITAL to everyone, may nevertheless be boring the pants of some members.

Maybe I need to ban myself. :( 



.....but that should not be an obstacle to people expressing their legitimately held concerns.

In the event, I'm working on the basis that direct communication with the Prime Minister's office will be the only way I'll be able to put my own concerns forward.
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