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[bootie]

I am back home in Spain now so best laid plans and all that.

Welcome home Mr V.  Maybe see you in the next couple of weeks, going over to visit Graham.

Hope everything gets sorted for your Dad.

Jon

[D]

Bionic, I am truly sorry if you feel that I consider you uneducated. Certainly not my intent. I was just surprised at your interpretation of c diff infections especially if you have worked as a nurse.

12 hospitals in 16 yrs is/was as part of the way our training scheme works. Nothing do with my happiness. There was indeed only one hospital I have considered poor and that was in south wales. I have also worked at the COSH in South Africa, missionary hospitals in India; again for free and enjoyed my time there. compared to that, the NHS is like the Marriot.

Conversly the local Nuffield here is somewhere I would avoid as I know the surgeons who operate there have been kicked off the NHS and therefore only work privately. I certainly dont want to be looked after by them. When I needed minor surgery I was looked after by my local hospitals (not where I work though) and have nothing but praise for them.

Private care is fine by me, just dont think its a fair system and means that patients that cannot pay will be penalised. Also it doesnt guarantee anything. A good example being the private breast implants. Where do they all go when it goes tits up? Oh yes, to the NHS.

[Rods2]

"D"

I make no excuses except for the fact that with the limited resources the NHS has, it does a pretty good job.

Rods2 post is a typical knee jerk reaction to issues like this. The reason being no one hears about the millions of ops that do happen on time, with out any complications. You dont hear about the extra hours that doctors and nurses put in without pay to go the extra mile for patients. For every odd bad sory you hear, there are probably thousands or more good outcomes. But nobody likes to post about good things that happen to them, its always easier to criticise than to praise.

The NHS Budget is £120bn a year which is about 7.5% of GDP or just under £2,000 spent per person per year, if this is limited inadequate resources, then please tell me what is required? 100% / 200% / 10,000%, 1,000,000% of GDP before the workforce of the NHS feel they have adequate resources? 

Please tell me why all those that work in the public services use the excuse of inadequate resources, yet in the private sector, whatever the resources we have (often on wafer thin budgets), we just get on with it, to get a result, as if we don't it's a P45.

The French system also consumes about 7.5% of GDP and on all of the measures I have seen, from patient satisfaction, infection rates, waiting times and cancer survival rates it easily out performs the NHS. Why so?

I agree that the US system is good but very expensive, and also exclusive with many people having no access to medical treatment.    Do I think it is a good system, NO, and to me this is how a private system should not be organised, the French public / private system is much better. I want this country to have a good health system that gives value for money and IMHO the NHS is not fit for purpose to deliver this.

My response is not a knee jerk reaction, but from the experience of many friends and relations. Including, my ex-wife being minutes from death from internal bleeding, (heart stopped from lack of blood) from a bodged NHS operation.

I'm very fortunate in that too date, I've enjoyed very good heath with the only minor hospital treatment I've needed has been as an outpatient.

Several times when I was with my ex-wife I paid for private consultancy and operations as it was the only way to stop the endless appointments with consultants, each taking a minimum of 6 weeks between appointments and getting no where. Eight appointments means that is a year of your life gone, which in my ex-wife's case also meant that where she could hardly walk from a chronic back problem and was bored and frustrated where she couldn't work.

Recent experience again with a close relation, was that nurses spent much time, talking about their personal lives, weekend plans, jokes etc. with a patient buzzing for assistance considered a pain as they were dragging them away from enjoying themselves.

My experience on the competence and attitude of doctors and nurses has been always good in private sector (you are treated as a customer, not a number) and from exceptionally good to exceptionally bad on the NHS.

I have several English friends who have retired to France and ALL of them on using the French system have made the comments from how much better it is, to several saying until then they hadn't realized how bad the NHS was in comparison.

[Bionic]

 
Rods2,
 :-[Sorry to hear about your brother in law's experience, really I am.
Maybe I gave the impression that the private sector make no mistakes but we all know that in life we all do. The biggest annoyance is when they are not admitted and we get excuses by the truck load to try and and sweep it under the carpet. That is exactly what D is trying to do, baffle us with statistics that are meaningless to many of us and as we all know - statistics can be bent to misguide the truth. It has become very clear that he is employed within the NHS and I suspect as someone who uses paper frequently. A statistic gatherer perhaps? There are too many references to statistics which ordinary nursing or cleaning staff would not be interested in. He states LIMITED RESCOURCES - we all have heard through the media just how much money has been pumped into the NHS and how much went on recruiting more pen pushers. The fact is that very little of it went to patient care.
The Leicester University Hospitals, bad as they are, are just the tip of a very big iceberg which can be proven by the sheer number of outbreaks of inpatient diseases caught whilst in their care. Its been on the news enough times naming many different nationwide hospitals too.
D states that the surgeons who work in the private sector have been kicked out of the NHS. That is the most idiotic and libellous statement I have yet heard. I am currently, and have been previously treated and received surgery many times from surgeons who work within the NHS as consultants and also operate there PLUS performing exactly the same role within the private sector. Due to the manner in which I had previously been treated within the NHS as an inpatient I now always elect to have the surgery privately at either BUPA or Nuffield for which the private sector hospital charges EXACTLY the same fee it would have cost if performed within the NHS. Those are the rules under which they work.
You stated;
Conversly the local Nuffield here is somewhere I would avoid as I know the surgeons who operate there have been kicked off the NHS and therefore only work privately. I certainly dont want to be looked after by them. When I needed minor surgery I was looked after by my local hospitals (not where I work though) and have nothing but praise for them.
I am now considering taking a print off of this to my consultant, because I see no reason not to, at my next appointment so he may show his colleagues ( who to my knowledge all work for both too) your 'facts' that they were 'kicked out'. They may just decide to take some form of action should they see it as libel.
You have now proven to me conclusively that you are not worth responding to because you seem to enjoy rattling other people with your misguided 'proof' when we state our personal experiences received personally within the system.
I also do not accept apologies for adverse comments made against me and should there be any further instances I will not hesitate to report the matter to the Admin Panel.
I suggest that you now drop this subject and allow others to have their own opinions based on personal experiences of the care they have received. That was the reason this thread was started, not as some platform for excuses to them.

[D]

Bionic, this will be my last post as you seem intent on misreading, misquoting me, making assumptions about me and then getting ready to fight.

I did not state that private surgeons are those kicked off the NHS. I quoted "the local Nuffield here is somewhere I would avoid as ...". ie: my local Nuffield and I have proof to back it up. So no libel there. You have assumed I meant something when my post is clear that it is my local Nuffield.

You : "baffle us with statistics that are meaningless to many of us ". When did I quote any statistic other than a clinical infection rate or that one hospital was oversubscribed to? Surely the fact that a hospital cannot cope with the workload is a meaningful and direct application of information? Is it truly that baffling? I think you may have been misled by Rods2's post. He has quoted quite a few statistics.

You wrote: "It has become very clear that he is employed within the NHS and I suspect as someone who uses paper frequently. A statistic gatherer perhaps? ". Again an assumption. I saw how angry you got when I made an assumption. I wont because clearly you seem to think that only you have the right to make assumptions.

You wrote: "I am now considering taking a print off of this to my consultant, because I see no reason not to, at my next appointment so he may show his colleagues ( who to my knowledge all work for both too) your 'facts' that they were 'kicked out'." Again when did I say that? You are just making things up. and getting upset for something I never said or implied.

You wrote: "you seem to enjoy rattling other people with your misguided 'proof' when we state our personal experiences received personally within the system." I am sorry WTF. Did I just not say : "When I needed minor surgery I was looked after by my local hospitals (not where I work though) and have nothing but praise for them." So my experience is misguided proof whilst yours is the holy writ?

I am now getting upset as you seem to think that only you can have an opinion and no one else. I thought the forum was for opinions and mine is as posted. I make no apologies for it. No need to get nasty and force and threaten others? please do report this to admin if required as you seem to be the one making threats, not me.

[D]

Rods2, I dont really know much about the French system having never worked in it. I have heard of it being good and may get an opportunity to work in Lille later this year (although it would be a a very specialised field so may not include general medical care). So I may be able to comment at that point.

In terms of percentages I cannot really comment, all I know is that the govt drives the trust hard to cut down on expenses which in turn means limited funding for equipment and staff. I am glad that this does mean that there are less managers around and more clinical staff.

[Bionic]

D, It is not me making threats....
Where is the proof that the surgeons you state were kicked out of the NHS and now only work privately? That news would have made the headlines and so you should be able to indicate where it can be read. What were their names so I can do my own research? Which NHS hospitals were they sacked from? It is my intention to contact them and ascertain the truth then post the replies on this forum.
No information supplied I shall take in the light of mere waffle and storytelling to make a point or win an argument.
I look forward to your information of those hospitals and surgeons being made available. It will not be covered by the data protection act or confidentiality clause either if the cases were real because they were so serious they would have been reported in the national press.
Its your move.
We shall see if it was really your last post, somehow I doubt it. Provision, or not of the proof about those surgeons/consultants will tell the tale.
You are entitled to your opinion just as all of us are entitled to ours. My personal experience counts for everything as do my many hospital admittance papers, letters to the NHS hospitals I was under, complaints forms and discharge papers. More than enough proof contained there......
And please NO more WTF in your posts....it is uncalled for.

[D]

It was in the papers. I am not one to name colleagues. Its called professionalism, part of my job. You are looking for a fight, not a sensible discussion. I give up, you win, you are always correct. Nothing matters but your opinion. Goodbye.

[Bionic]

Thought that that would be the reply that would come. Just as expected. Not always right but this time was one of them obviously.
Nuff said