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[Lizzie_Zoom]

LZ - I was one of those 300m. I won't be again. You complain of bad business practices on another thread.....

HS2 will not carry freight, so cancel out all the freight calcs.

Eurostar and Le Shuttle are gateways to Europe. People will travel to the terminus, in order to get to Europe. HS2 doesn't really offer the same. I'm not going to drive to Birmingham, just to get to London. How many people get aboard Eurostar at London, just to get off before Folkstone?

This is about spending £23bn (unclear is its £23,000,000,000 or £23,000,000,000,000), assuming its done to budget (which we know from experience....) to provide a service that already exists, only just be a few minutes faster (and thats all it is, a few minutes). And then spending all the subsidies just so the (very) few can use it.


Note, I'm specifically avoiding the whole debate about ripping up AoONB - and it would be a shame to ruin the Chilterns - and all the usual NIMBY "it will blight the countryside" views. For info, its too far away from me - about a mile, in a cutting, so will have no impact. If the wind is in the right direction, I *may* hear it, assuming that somebody first bombs the 3 local airstrips, and the A43.

I understand what you mean TB, but travelling to Europe is so easy now for us in the South.  Forget busy overcrowded airports and high seas in the Channel.

As for HS2 use; eventually it will extend to the north and it will be of great benefit for those travelling to European destinations.  Going from Birmingham to London? well  no, I would never think that will form the major element of passenger travel. You are right.  But the line is destined for European travel firstly, but secondly it will be also used for internal British travel.  Already we have the Javelin service to St. Pancras on the HS1, and a considerable amount of business passengers are using that to get up to London quickly, then back down to Ashford, and south coast towns such as Folkestone.  Yes they pay a premium, but I have heard the argument it is far better to pay the extra for the speed, and be able to spend more time with the family, per day, per week, per month............you get the picture.

[tunnie]

Already we have the Javelin service to St. Pancras on the HS1, and a considerable amount of business passengers are using that to get up to London quickly, then back down to Ashford, and south coast towns such as Folkestone.  Yes they pay a premium, but I have heard the argument it is far better to pay the extra for the speed, and be able to spend more time with the family, per day, per week, per month............you get the picture.

Ohh not they are not:

http://www.railpro.co.uk/news/?idArticles=234

Reducing  capacity by 50% means fek all people are using it. 

Also why pay extra for speed? Just get up earlier? 

[tunnie]

Already we have the Javelin service to St. Pancras on the HS1, and a considerable amount of business passengers are using that to get up to London quickly, then back down to Ashford, and south coast towns such as Folkestone.  Yes they pay a premium, but I have heard the argument it is far better to pay the extra for the speed, and be able to spend more time with the family, per day, per week, per month............you get the picture.

Ohh not they are not:

http://www.railpro.co.uk/news/?idArticles=234

Reducing  capacity by 50% means fek all people are using it. 

Also why pay extra for speed? Just get up earlier? 

Should also add, if had a family, instead of paying 25% more to get there 20 minutes earlier, I would spend that 25% on the family (gifts/rides/food/toys) at the destination and just take them to the station 20 minutes sooner 

[Lizzie_Zoom]

LZ - apart from when it hits the M25, does WCML from Brum to London go through any cities?  To save you looking at a map, the answer is no.

I still think the existing services are more than adequate, not particularly overcrowded (on the Brum to Smoke routes), and I think commuting will be reduced in 20yrs.

What?!

Here is the map of the WCML, and you say it does not go through any cities?  I am sure when I travelled it it did, and the limits of the track bed are obvious all the way up North.

 

Name 1 city it goes through between London and Brum, which was what I said

Alright TB, none between London and Birmingham, but I was on about the WHOLE route to the north which includes Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Carlisle, Glasgow Edinburgh for instance  and is shared by much domestic mixed traffic.  You cannot build a high speed line on that track bed alignment / route without exceptional cost, even compared to HS2.  I am also repeating that this is about the long term with HS2 going fully up to the North.

It is he way to go

.

[TheBoy]

I understand what you mean TB, but travelling to Europe is so easy now for us in the South.  Forget busy overcrowded airports and high seas in the Channel.

Assuming I would ever use Eurotunnel services again (I won't, lying breakless retards), remind me how HS2 (Phase 1, Phase 2 will never get built) will improve my trip? It will only improve your trip *IF* you are within a few minutes of the 2 Birmingham termini. And on such a journey, are you going to pay the premium to shave around 15 mins off your journey? Personally, I'd get one of the slower, far cheaper coaches that drop you right off outside Kings Cross, and not have to worry about trying to drag my cases across the underground. It would probably be quicker anyway

HS2 is not a route to Europe. HS2 Ltd say its primarily a commuter service in to London.

As for HS2 use; eventually it will extend to the north and it will be of great benefit for those travelling to European destinations.  Going from Birmingham to London? well  no, I would never think that will form the major element of passenger travel. You are right.  But the line is destined for European travel firstly, but secondly it will be also used for internal British travel.  Already we have the Javelin service to St. Pancras on the HS1, and a considerable amount of business passengers are using that to get up to London quickly, then back down to Ashford, and south coast towns such as Folkestone.  Yes they pay a premium, but I have heard the argument it is far better to pay the extra for the speed, and be able to spend more time with the family, per day, per week, per month............you get the picture.

HS1 is a commercial failure I believe?

HS2 will not extend to Europe. Its purely a Birmingham to London service. I'm going blue in the face saying it.

Even HS2 Ltd say its unlikely that Phase 2 of HS2 (Mancs and Leeds) will ever get built. I think they can see the journey improvement times are not enough to warrant it, as there is little scope to improve it much.  All the time benefits are at the London end.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Already we have the Javelin service to St. Pancras on the HS1, and a considerable amount of business passengers are using that to get up to London quickly, then back down to Ashford, and south coast towns such as Folkestone.  Yes they pay a premium, but I have heard the argument it is far better to pay the extra for the speed, and be able to spend more time with the family, per day, per week, per month............you get the picture.

Ohh not they are not:

http://www.railpro.co.uk/news/?idArticles=234

Reducing  capacity by 50% means fek all people are using it. 

Also why pay extra for speed? Just get up earlier? 

I have said why, and these are early days Tunnie .

[the alarming man]

We need that kind of thinking for Heathrow's 3rd Runway 

Yes, and the HS2 rail link tunnie

Still, the way the Coalition is thinking, speeded up planning processes will become the norm.  However I do not think we will match the Chinese practice!

Only a communist or national socialist state could do that

is that right lizzie??...you taken a trip up the A20 at sidcup.....they did that to a person up there who would'nt sell so they built the main dual carrigeway into london around his £3.5 millon house

Ah, that's the clue TAM!

He is rich, so in our democratic capitalist system money talks. Instead of bulldozing the house as they would in the case of you and I, the multi-millionaire just got his cheque book out!!

errr NO that was not the case he wanted more money and kept on upping his price,in the end the department of transport had enough of his stupidness so they built a 8 lane carriageway around his house...his drive is now the  A 20

[TheBoy]

Alright TB, none between London and Birmingham, but I was on about the WHOLE route to the north which includes Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Carlisle, Glasgow Edinburgh for instance  and is shared by much domestic mixed traffic.  You cannot build a high speed line on that track bed alignment / route without exceptional cost, even compared to HS2.  I am also repeating that this is about the long term with HS2 going fully up to the North.

It is he way to go

Phase 2 is unlikely to ever go ahead. There was no hint at the consultations that going beyond Mancs and Leeds would even be considered.

Mancs already has a pretty fast service into London (not sure about Leeds, never used the train to get there), so if we really thing rail is the way to go (lets face it, its not), spend the money improving the service beyond there. Or providing services so more people can use the train. Or was Beeching right 

[tunnie]

Already we have the Javelin service to St. Pancras on the HS1, and a considerable amount of business passengers are using that to get up to London quickly, then back down to Ashford, and south coast towns such as Folkestone.  Yes they pay a premium, but I have heard the argument it is far better to pay the extra for the speed, and be able to spend more time with the family, per day, per week, per month............you get the picture.

Ohh not they are not:

http://www.railpro.co.uk/news/?idArticles=234

Reducing  capacity by 50% means fek all people are using it. 

Also why pay extra for speed? Just get up earlier? 

I have said why, and these are early days Tunnie .

What, "to be able to spend more time with the family, per day, per week, per month".

Very, very, very weak excuse for a multi billion pound project!

[Lizzie_Zoom]

I understand what you mean TB, but travelling to Europe is so easy now for us in the South.  Forget busy overcrowded airports and high seas in the Channel.

Assuming I would ever use Eurotunnel services again (I won't, lying breakless retards), remind me how HS2 (Phase 1, Phase 2 will never get built) will improve my trip? It will only improve your trip *IF* you are within a few minutes of the 2 Birmingham termini. And on such a journey, are you going to pay the premium to shave around 15 mins off your journey? Personally, I'd get one of the slower, far cheaper coaches that drop you right off outside Kings Cross, and not have to worry about trying to drag my cases across the underground. It would probably be quicker anyway

HS2 is not a route to Europe. HS2 Ltd say its primarily a commuter service in to London.

As for HS2 use; eventually it will extend to the north and it will be of great benefit for those travelling to European destinations.  Going from Birmingham to London? well  no, I would never think that will form the major element of passenger travel. You are right.  But the line is destined for European travel firstly, but secondly it will be also used for internal British travel.  Already we have the Javelin service to St. Pancras on the HS1, and a considerable amount of business passengers are using that to get up to London quickly, then back down to Ashford, and south coast towns such as Folkestone.  Yes they pay a premium, but I have heard the argument it is far better to pay the extra for the speed, and be able to spend more time with the family, per day, per week, per month............you get the picture.

HS1 is a commercial failure I believe?

HS2 will not extend to Europe. Its purely a Birmingham to London service. I'm going blue in the face saying it.

Even HS2 Ltd say its unlikely that Phase 2 of HS2 (Mancs and Leeds) will ever get built. I think they can see the journey improvement times are not enough to warrant it, as there is little scope to improve it much.  All the time benefits are at the London end.

  I'd love to see that TB!

........and I am going crazy trying to state that this is a long term answer,  not now, or even in 15 years time, and I KNOW it will not be built before then.

It IS for our children's children, and a forward investment when we must be efficiently linked to Europe, avoiding impossibly conjested roads, airports and airspace, along with the flaws travelling on rough seas!  Some could not see the advantages of railways (or cars and aeroplanes) when first suggested, like you with HS2.  In 50 years it will be a different world, and Great Britain, although I will not see it!

[tunnie]

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/824624-140mph-train-service-is-reduced-after-complaints

HS1 is not being used now  

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Alright TB, none between London and Birmingham, but I was on about the WHOLE route to the north which includes Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Carlisle, Glasgow Edinburgh for instance  and is shared by much domestic mixed traffic.  You cannot build a high speed line on that track bed alignment / route without exceptional cost, even compared to HS2.  I am also repeating that this is about the long term with HS2 going fully up to the North.

It is he way to go

Phase 2 is unlikely to ever go ahead. There was no hint at the consultations that going beyond Mancs and Leeds would even be considered.

Mancs already has a pretty fast service into London (not sure about Leeds, never used the train to get there), so if we really thing rail is the way to go (lets face it, its not), spend the money improving the service beyond there. Or providing services so more people can use the train. Or was Beeching right 

That is not what the Governments long term view is.  At present it is to Birmingham, but later beyond.

Beeching was not right in the long term, but for the 1963 he was in financial terms.

[the alarming man]

I understand what you mean TB, but travelling to Europe is so easy now for us in the South.  Forget busy overcrowded airports and high seas in the Channel.

Assuming I would ever use Eurotunnel services again (I won't, lying breakless retards), remind me how HS2 (Phase 1, Phase 2 will never get built) will improve my trip? It will only improve your trip *IF* you are within a few minutes of the 2 Birmingham termini. And on such a journey, are you going to pay the premium to shave around 15 mins off your journey? Personally, I'd get one of the slower, far cheaper coaches that drop you right off outside Kings Cross, and not have to worry about trying to drag my cases across the underground. It would probably be quicker anyway

HS2 is not a route to Europe. HS2 Ltd say its primarily a commuter service in to London.

As for HS2 use; eventually it will extend to the north and it will be of great benefit for those travelling to European destinations.  Going from Birmingham to London? well  no, I would never think that will form the major element of passenger travel. You are right.  But the line is destined for European travel firstly, but secondly it will be also used for internal British travel.  Already we have the Javelin service to St. Pancras on the HS1, and a considerable amount of business passengers are using that to get up to London quickly, then back down to Ashford, and south coast towns such as Folkestone.  Yes they pay a premium, but I have heard the argument it is far better to pay the extra for the speed, and be able to spend more time with the family, per day, per week, per month............you get the picture.

HS1 is a commercial failure I believe?

HS2 will not extend to Europe. Its purely a Birmingham to London service. I'm going blue in the face saying it.

Even HS2 Ltd say its unlikely that Phase 2 of HS2 (Mancs and Leeds) will ever get built. I think they can see the journey improvement times are not enough to warrant it, as there is little scope to improve it much.  All the time benefits are at the London end.

  I'd love to see that TB!

........and I am going crazy trying to state that this is a long term answer,  not now, or even in 15 years time, and I KNOW it will not be built before then.

It IS for our children's children, and a forward investment when we must be efficiently linked to Europe, avoiding impossibly conjested roads, airports and airspace, along with the flaws travelling on rough seas!  Some could not see the advantages of railways (or cars and aeroplanes) when first suggested, like you with HS2.  In 50 years it will be a different world, and Great Britain, although I will not see it!

how on earth is HS2 going to give us efficent travel links to europe??...it is terminating in london?

[TheBoy]

I understand what you mean TB, but travelling to Europe is so easy now for us in the South.  Forget busy overcrowded airports and high seas in the Channel.

Assuming I would ever use Eurotunnel services again (I won't, lying breakless retards), remind me how HS2 (Phase 1, Phase 2 will never get built) will improve my trip? It will only improve your trip *IF* you are within a few minutes of the 2 Birmingham termini. And on such a journey, are you going to pay the premium to shave around 15 mins off your journey? Personally, I'd get one of the slower, far cheaper coaches that drop you right off outside Kings Cross, and not have to worry about trying to drag my cases across the underground. It would probably be quicker anyway

HS2 is not a route to Europe. HS2 Ltd say its primarily a commuter service in to London.

As for HS2 use; eventually it will extend to the north and it will be of great benefit for those travelling to European destinations.  Going from Birmingham to London? well  no, I would never think that will form the major element of passenger travel. You are right.  But the line is destined for European travel firstly, but secondly it will be also used for internal British travel.  Already we have the Javelin service to St. Pancras on the HS1, and a considerable amount of business passengers are using that to get up to London quickly, then back down to Ashford, and south coast towns such as Folkestone.  Yes they pay a premium, but I have heard the argument it is far better to pay the extra for the speed, and be able to spend more time with the family, per day, per week, per month............you get the picture.

HS1 is a commercial failure I believe?

HS2 will not extend to Europe. Its purely a Birmingham to London service. I'm going blue in the face saying it.

Even HS2 Ltd say its unlikely that Phase 2 of HS2 (Mancs and Leeds) will ever get built. I think they can see the journey improvement times are not enough to warrant it, as there is little scope to improve it much.  All the time benefits are at the London end.

  I'd love to see that TB!

........and I am going crazy trying to state that this is a long term answer,  not now, or even in 15 years time, and I KNOW it will not be built before then.

It IS for our children's children, and a forward investment when we must be efficiently linked to Europe, avoiding impossibly conjested roads, airports and airspace, along with the flaws travelling on rough seas!  Some could not see the advantages of railways (or cars and aeroplanes) when first suggested, like you with HS2.  In 50 years it will be a different world, and Great Britain, although I will not see it!

Well, Phase 1 won't be built in 15yrs, so I doubt the unlikely Phase 2 will be, or the unplanned route further North.

My point being, unlike air travel, cars, or the original railways, HS2 offers nothing other than about 15mins off a 120m journey. Phase 2 offers even lower returns per mile for time saved.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/824624-140mph-train-service-is-reduced-after-complaints

HS1 is not being used now  

The HS1 line is being used, it is the Javelin service that needs to develop it's business further, which is true of most businesses during the hard financial situation since 2008.  Once more..................it is for the long term, but shorter term than HS2 before you all shout at me!