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[TheBoy]

Alright TB, none between London and Birmingham, but I was on about the WHOLE route to the north which includes Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Carlisle, Glasgow Edinburgh for instance  and is shared by much domestic mixed traffic.  You cannot build a high speed line on that track bed alignment / route without exceptional cost, even compared to HS2.  I am also repeating that this is about the long term with HS2 going fully up to the North.

It is he way to go

Phase 2 is unlikely to ever go ahead. There was no hint at the consultations that going beyond Mancs and Leeds would even be considered.

Mancs already has a pretty fast service into London (not sure about Leeds, never used the train to get there), so if we really thing rail is the way to go (lets face it, its not), spend the money improving the service beyond there. Or providing services so more people can use the train. Or was Beeching right 

That is not what the Governments long term view is.  At present it is to Birmingham, but later beyond.

Beeching was not right in the long term, but for the 1963 he was in financial terms.

The Government has not signed up to Phase 2. So its NOT a Government view. Its an HS2 Ltd's view, and even they accept its unlikely they can build a business case for Phase 2 (probably more so when Phase 1 flops). HS2 Ltd have no plans for a Phase 3 to go beyond Mancs or Leeds.

[tunnie]

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/824624-140mph-train-service-is-reduced-after-complaints

HS1 is not being used now  

The HS1 line is being used, it is the Javelin service that needs to develop it's business further, which is true of most businesses during the hard financial situation since 2008.  Once more..................it is for the long term, but shorter term than HS2 before you all shout at me!

So the high speed bit? Remind me again the point of HS2? 

[Lizzie_Zoom]

I understand what you mean TB, but travelling to Europe is so easy now for us in the South.  Forget busy overcrowded airports and high seas in the Channel.

Assuming I would ever use Eurotunnel services again (I won't, lying breakless retards), remind me how HS2 (Phase 1, Phase 2 will never get built) will improve my trip? It will only improve your trip *IF* you are within a few minutes of the 2 Birmingham termini. And on such a journey, are you going to pay the premium to shave around 15 mins off your journey? Personally, I'd get one of the slower, far cheaper coaches that drop you right off outside Kings Cross, and not have to worry about trying to drag my cases across the underground. It would probably be quicker anyway

HS2 is not a route to Europe. HS2 Ltd say its primarily a commuter service in to London.

As for HS2 use; eventually it will extend to the north and it will be of great benefit for those travelling to European destinations.  Going from Birmingham to London? well  no, I would never think that will form the major element of passenger travel. You are right.  But the line is destined for European travel firstly, but secondly it will be also used for internal British travel.  Already we have the Javelin service to St. Pancras on the HS1, and a considerable amount of business passengers are using that to get up to London quickly, then back down to Ashford, and south coast towns such as Folkestone.  Yes they pay a premium, but I have heard the argument it is far better to pay the extra for the speed, and be able to spend more time with the family, per day, per week, per month............you get the picture.

HS1 is a commercial failure I believe?

HS2 will not extend to Europe. Its purely a Birmingham to London service. I'm going blue in the face saying it.

Even HS2 Ltd say its unlikely that Phase 2 of HS2 (Mancs and Leeds) will ever get built. I think they can see the journey improvement times are not enough to warrant it, as there is little scope to improve it much.  All the time benefits are at the London end.

  I'd love to see that TB!

........and I am going crazy trying to state that this is a long term answer,  not now, or even in 15 years time, and I KNOW it will not be built before then.

It IS for our children's children, and a forward investment when we must be efficiently linked to Europe, avoiding impossibly conjested roads, airports and airspace, along with the flaws travelling on rough seas!  Some could not see the advantages of railways (or cars and aeroplanes) when first suggested, like you with HS2.  In 50 years it will be a different world, and Great Britain, although I will not see it!

how on earth is HS2 going to give us efficent travel links to europe??...it is terminating in london?

............and as I stated before TAM that will be a big mistake and MUST be changed in any future plans.  It MUST go through to Europe for the whole project to suceed.  It will not if it does terminate there, and I will personally lobby for that once public consultations start in earnest.

PS I haven't ignored your post on the millionaires house TAM; been a bit busy with railway matters!!

No, I was being flippant about his money talking, although as someone else has rightly stated the compulsory purchase order normally over-rides such circumstances.  Did his money talk then; I really don't know, but I am suspicious of such inconsistencies after dealing with many rogues in my time!

[tunnie]

It would be incredibly expensive to link it to HS1, either going to need a wacking great tunnel under London or go around it.)

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Alright TB, none between London and Birmingham, but I was on about the WHOLE route to the north which includes Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Carlisle, Glasgow Edinburgh for instance  and is shared by much domestic mixed traffic.  You cannot build a high speed line on that track bed alignment / route without exceptional cost, even compared to HS2.  I am also repeating that this is about the long term with HS2 going fully up to the North.

It is he way to go

Phase 2 is unlikely to ever go ahead. There was no hint at the consultations that going beyond Mancs and Leeds would even be considered.

Mancs already has a pretty fast service into London (not sure about Leeds, never used the train to get there), so if we really thing rail is the way to go (lets face it, its not), spend the money improving the service beyond there. Or providing services so more people can use the train. Or was Beeching right 

That is not what the Governments long term view is.  At present it is to Birmingham, but later beyond.

Beeching was not right in the long term, but for the 1963 he was in financial terms.

The Government has not signed up to Phase 2. So its NOT a Government view. Its an HS2 Ltd's view, and even they accept its unlikely they can build a business case for Phase 2 (probably more so when Phase 1 flops). HS2 Ltd have no plans for a Phase 3 to go beyond Mancs or Leeds.

Yes, maybe it is their view, but future governments, and I think we all understand now this is very long term, will require it to go further than the brief HS2  Ltd., have so far been given.  That is no surprise to me, and has been made clear from the start.

[TheBoy]

............and as I stated before TAM that will be a big mistake and MUST be changed in any future plans.  It MUST go through to Europe for the whole project to suceed.  It will not if it does terminate there, and I will personally lobby for that once public consultations start in earnest.

They have been and gone, and the project signed off, although facing several legal disputes around the "facts" that make up the business case.

You're 18 months too late. HS2 is a Birmingham to London Commuter Service.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

It would be incredibly expensive to link it to HS1, either going to need a wacking great tunnel under London or go around it.)

No, it is feasible by "simply" (there I go, when I know it is NEVER simple with railways in London! ) building an avoiding loop at ST. Pancras so trains can avoid the main part of the station to go onto the HS1.  Rather similar, but in bigger scale, to the trains avoiding Waterloo from the South and going via the through station of Waterloo East.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Well, with more research, it seems my fears, and yours, could be resolved.  There is officially a plan to link HS2 with HS1, by, as I suggested, a loop North of St. Pancras.  If still the plan this is great news    

Please see:
You need to zoom in to this plan but the red line of HS2 goes onto the HS1 line outside St. Pancras:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hs2-revised-line-of-route-maps

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/hs2-maps-20120110/hs2arp00drrw05140issue2.pdf


The BBC reported in July on the plans:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-18686495

Note: HS2 Ltd state only that Stage 2 has not been planned YET.

So TB, in the long term HS2 is not just going to be a domestic commuter route.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

This is what I LOVE about the OOF!

We not only discuss great car stuff and help to sort out our problems, but enter into great debate on big topical matters as though we can change anything

To think this thread started with a house in the middle of a new road...................in China...........Wonderful!!

Thanks to all that enter into debate.  May it long continue

[TheBoy]

Stage 2 = Phase 2 = the bit from Litchfield to Mancs/Leeds. That hasn't been planned, but is on the agenda as previously said, but they don't think the business case is there. Even they admit this is unlikely to happen.

Any Phase 3 - the bit beyond Mancs/Leeds, hasn't even been thought of yet.


As to the linking to HS1, that was most certainly not on the consultation info - I still have the pack here, and am looking at it. It suggests a link to HS1 via some modifications to Crossrail, which is why its going in via West London (not the best way to get to Euston!!), but will require changes, as the rolling stock is unlikely to be compatible with standard UK track (actual decisions on track/wheels hasn't been made).

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Stage 2 = Phase 2 = the bit from Litchfield to Mancs/Leeds. That hasn't been planned, but is on the agenda as previously said, but they don't think the business case is there. Even they admit this is unlikely to happen.

Any Phase 3 - the bit beyond Mancs/Leeds, hasn't even been thought of yet.


As to the linking to HS1, that was most certainly not on the consultation info - I still have the pack here, and am looking at it. It suggests a link to HS1 via some modifications to Crossrail, which is why its going in via West London (not the best way to get to Euston!!), but will require changes, as the rolling stock is unlikely to be compatible with standard UK track (actual decisions on track/wheels hasn't been made).

How did you get that pack TB?  I would love to get hold of a copy.

Although, as you say it seems a lot has been agreed, it is always on the cards with any national project things will change as it all progresses, although I am pleased it would seem from the plans published on line that a HS1 / 2 link is at least being considered; something that, as I first stated, is essential to the commercial viability of the line(s).  I am concerned that your pack does not make that clear.  I wonder why, and what could be (politically?) transpiring behind the scenes.

Putting aside for a moment differences of opinion that will be rife throughout the land (more controversial than the Trident delivery system replacement?) it is clear many debates will still be had in Parliament, and changes of plan will transpire, before the first sod is cut, whenever that is. or not as you and others believe TB.

[tunnie]

They held local  meets for areas it affects, Brackley (where my parents are) it goes past within a a couple of miles or so

[Lizzie_Zoom]

They held local  meets for areas it affects, Brackley (where my parents are) it goes past within a a couple of miles or so

Thanks Tunnie

[TheBoy]

How did you get that pack TB?  I would love to get hold of a copy.

Went to the consultations.

Pretty certain they won't publish the packs too widely, as its too easy to find the flaws in their corruption plan

[TheBoy]

Putting aside for a moment differences of opinion that will be rife throughout the land (more controversial than the Trident delivery system replacement?) it is clear many debates will still be had in Parliament, and changes of plan will transpire, before the first sod is cut, whenever that is. or not as you and others believe TB.

No more Parlimentry debates, they have finished. Compulsory purchases have started. All thats holding up actually starting are some legal debates around the BS that HS2 have used to get this through.